Top 20 players

[pockets 9]

im in agreement with Broken stats arnt everything and pavel was playing pre lockout and at one point was a 3rd liner Crosby's been a 1st/2nd liner since he entered the league. Pavs, Geno and Sid are closer then people realize.

My vote goes to Malkin

hes more durable then Sid better defensively and can be just as dominant offensively

im guessing we are voting as in the now not in a few years

i think in the next season or two guys like Getz, Geno and Sid will open the gap between them and guys like Z and Dats

[jmad 18]

Crosby

[numberthirtynine 0]

So what? Crosby is more of a force than Datsyuk is offensively, so they're not that close there as the above poster pointed out with some hard stats.

Um, no, you can't just repeat yourself. The point of a debate is to try and counter what the person said previously. The fact one of them plays D so much he's won 2 Selke awards, kind of throws a stick into the spokes of the "Crosby has more offense" argument.

Also, Crosby is still young, and at his age, Datsyuk wasn't nominated for any Selke's. Hell, I dont' think he was even in the league yet.

you should probably try arguing when you get your facts straight. this is still apples to oranges because of teams, rosters and a few other factors. besides, we're not voting on later, we're voting on now. for all we know, sid's topped out.

Ask most people around the league, and I guarantee you Crosby will be ranked ahead of Pavel by a landslide. How can you argue that there is no bias here on LGW?

This is always to go-to argument when someone has no faith in their own knowledge, or needs extra numbers to feel secure. I put very little faith in the media and the general consensus, for most things, nevermind just sports. We're the same populace that overrates and underrates players everyday. Unless of course you feel the media is intact and accurate with everything they say, publish and suggest. To which I'll call a loud and clear BULLs***. I don't give a good f*** what a group of people say, I see Datsyuk as the best all around player in the world, and his offense isn't below anyone enough to discount him.

Edited September 3, 2009 by numberthirtynine

[numberthirtynine 0]

When i compared Datsyuk to Crosby with the stats above, it was in response to a previous post regarding the two player's OFFENSIVE games....not a word in that specific post of mine was geared toward all-around or defensive play so you can save your Selke filled argument for another day

The fact those OFFENSIVE numbers for Pavel include PK time, and time in his own end, skews the comparison enough to render it irrelevant.

Also, he plays way better in the clutch, which no one here seems to care about

yeah he certainly played great in the finals. i'd swear crosby's paying you to say this. he's also a s***ty captain, to focus on your other comment. he has an inflated sense of arrogance and entitlement and whines like a baby when he doesn't get his way.

However, Hank had a s***ty season last year offensively, so I can't say that he's better than Crosby. Yeah, he's better defensively, but I don't want to beat that dead horse argument again. Most people here aren't voting for Zetterberg yet, so even the Wings homers aren't putting him ahead of Crosby.

The hell!? First the argument is "well we're homers so we pick pavs" then it turns into "hank was so bad even the homers won't pick him". you can't claim both, it's contradictory, so which is it?

Edited September 3, 2009 by numberthirtynine

[hockeysattva 8]

My vote is for Bill Brasky. Bill Brasky is the best three way player the game has ever seen averaging two shut-outs per game.

If you want to limit to only NHL players, and on skill alone my vote is for Dats... however, I'd still really like to know what his injury was so that I could tell if he was better...

Interesting thread.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Um, no, you can't just repeat yourself. The point of a debate is to try and counter what the person said previously. The fact one of them plays D so much he's won 2 Selke awards, kind of throws a stick into the spokes of the "Crosby has more offense" argument.

It doesn't actually throw a stick in it. That's just your interpretation of that. Playing D doesn't mean a guy will be worse offensively all of a sudden. When Pavel and Hank started playing D, their offensive numbers went up because they became better players. No reason to think that the same won't happen to Crosby.

you should probably try arguing when you get your facts straight. this is still apples to oranges because of teams, rosters and a few other factors. besides, we're not voting on later, we're voting on now. for all we know, sid's topped out.

This is always to go-to argument when someone has no faith in their own knowledge, or needs extra numbers to feel secure. I put very little faith in the media and the general consensus, for most things, nevermind just sports. We're the same populace that overrates and underrates players everyday. Unless of course you feel the media is intact and accurate with everything they say, publish and suggest. To which I'll call a loud and clear BULLs***. I don't give a good f*** what a group of people say, I see Datsyuk as the best all around player in the world, and his offense isn't below anyone enough to discount him.

I take the numbers as they are right now. Right now Crosby is better offensively than Datsyuk is. Stop making excuses for that.

I feel secure saying that Crosby is a better player than Datsyuk, even if Pavel is better as a two-way player. I've already explained why being a two-way player isn't the definitive way to judge this. Most people seem to agree, since Ovechkin was picked first, and he isn't even close to being a two-way player.

If you want to judge two-way play as the most important factor, than that's your interpretation, but not mine. Many people agree with me on this, while some will agree with you. No reason getting paranoid over it.

The fact those OFFENSIVE numbers for Pavel include PK time, and time in his own end, skews the comparison enough to render it irrelevant.

yeah he certainly played great in the finals. i'd swear crosby's paying you to say this. he's also a s***ty captain, to focus on your other comment. he has an inflated sense of arrogance and entitlement and whines like a baby when he doesn't get his way.

The hell!? First the argument is "well we're homers so we pick pavs" then it turns into "hank was so bad even the homers won't pick him". you can't claim both, it's contradictory, so which is it?

Crosby played better in the playoffs last year than Datsyuk did. Just because he's a whiner doesn't mean he should get discounted as a player. You've let your personal feelings get in the way here, as I can see from reading your description of Crosby's personality.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

The fact those OFFENSIVE numbers for Pavel include PK time, and time in his own end, skews the comparison enough to render it irrelevant.

yeah he certainly played great in the finals. i'd swear crosby's paying you to say this. he's also a s***ty captain, to focus on your other comment. he has an inflated sense of arrogance and entitlement and whines like a baby when he doesn't get his way.

The hell!? First the argument is "well we're homers so we pick pavs" then it turns into "hank was so bad even the homers won't pick him". you can't claim both, it's contradictory, so which is it?

Listen man, i don't care how much you hate Crosby, he is not a s***ty captain....he may not be a Stevie Y or a Nick Lidstrom or a Joe Sakic but the Stanley Cup is too hard to win without good leadership....how many s***ty capttains have ever won a Stanley Cup? The answer is zero, the captain's job is to lead the team, and if your team wins the biggest prize in the sport of hockey, then you must not be doing too shabby of a job right? To be the youngest captain to ever win a cup says alot too. Obviously the vets like Guerin and such helped out but we also know that one of the best ways to lead is by example...who was the Pens 2nd (at worst) best player during the playoffs? Crosby.....what do you think Malkin was talking to the team in Russian throughout last year's run? I don't think so. Hate him if you want but if your team wins the Stanley Cup, you are not a "s***ty" captain.

Edited September 4, 2009 by StevieY'sguy

[Carman 387]

Crosby

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Crosbys best, then Ovechkin, then Datsyuk, and then Ugly Evgeni.

[uk_redwing 495]

1. Aaron Downey

2. Derrick Boogaard

3. Donald Brasher

4. Geoges Laraque

5. Riley Cote

6. Daniel Carcillo

7. Milan Lucic

8. Colton Orr

9. Wade Belak

10. Shawn Thorton

11. Eric Boulton

12. Mike Rupp

13. DJ King

14. Cam Janssen

15. Andrew Peters

16. Jody Shelley

17. George Parros

18. Darcy Hordichuk

19. Steve Downie

20. Jason Williams

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Sidney Crosby

[numberthirtynine 0]

I take the numbers as they are right now. Right now Crosby is better offensively than Datsyuk is. Stop making excuses for that.

Excuses?

Kid, if you ducked my point some more you'd be switching hemispheres.

You can't take a Selke winners stats, who doesn't have nearly as much offensive ice time, and compare it to a player who doesn't play D, doesn't play on the PK and spends more ice time, spending it on offense.

Stop avoiding it, you're being a coward.

I feel secure saying that Crosby is a better player than Datsyuk, even if Pavel is better as a two-way player. I've already explained why being a two-way player isn't the definitive way to judge this.

And I completely countered it, to which you replied with silence quieter than a corpse.

Most people seem to agree, since Ovechkin was picked first, and he isn't even close to being a two-way player.

What "most people" think doesn't mean more to me than the dogs*** in my backyard.

Many people agree with me on this, while some will agree with you. No reason getting paranoid over it.

Security in numbers, huh? Keep piping and ignoring logic.

You've let your personal feelings get in the way here, as I can see from reading your description of Crosby's personality.

Yeah, my feelings. I also let LOGIC get in the way, too. Presumptuous f***wit.

Listen man, i don't care how much you hate Crosby, he is not a s***ty captain

When you whine like a *****, pout after losses, refuse to give credit to players better than you who PROVE it, and have an inflated sense of entitlement about everything....you are in fact, a s***ty captain. A good captain leads by example. Stevie Y. Nick. Sakic.

if your team wins the Stanley Cup, you are not a "s***ty" captain.

LMMFAO

That is the stupidest ******* thing I've ever read. You can be a s***ty captain and win. Captain's don't dictate Cup wins. Moreso their personalities. Yeah, I'm an *******. I'm a whiner. I'm a dirty player. My TEAM won a Cup. I'm instantly lifted of these flaws and I'm a great captain.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Excuses?

Kid, if you ducked my point some more you'd be switching hemispheres.

You can't take a Selke winners stats, who doesn't have nearly as much offensive ice time, and compare it to a player who doesn't play D, doesn't play on the PK and spends more ice time, spending it on offense.

Stop avoiding it, you're being a coward.

And I completely countered it, to which you replied with silence quieter than a corpse.

What "most people" think doesn't mean more to me than the dogs*** in my backyard.

Security in numbers, huh? Keep piping and ignoring logic.

Yeah, my feelings. I also let LOGIC get in the way, too. Presumptuous f***wit.

When you whine like a *****, pout after losses, refuse to give credit to players better than you who PROVE it, and have an inflated sense of entitlement about everything....you are in fact, a s***ty captain. A good captain leads by example. Stevie Y. Nick. Sakic.

LMMFAO

That is the stupidest ******* thing I've ever read. You can be a s***ty captain and win. Captain's don't dictate Cup wins. Moreso their personalities. Yeah, I'm an *******. I'm a whiner. I'm a dirty player. My TEAM won a Cup. I'm instantly lifted of these flaws and I'm a great captain.

Grow up and stop calling people names if you want anyone to take you seriously.

You're the one acting like a presumptious f***wit (whatever that means) and not me or anyone else in this thread. I don't agree with your opinion and I've already told you why. If you're not convinced by my argument, fine. Don't whine about it and call me names for it. Who the hell cares which player is better anyway? It's supposed to be a FUN thread.

You're taking this like some 10 year old who had his lunch money stolen by Crosby.

I've already told you that I think Crosby is better regardless of who is a better two-way player. What more do you want me to say to state my position?

Edited September 4, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[Namingway 146]

Pavel "Pasha" Datsyuk

[egroen 384]

I do believe, right now, Datsyuk is a better player than Crosby and Malkin -- as I do believe his defense and all-around game more than makes up for the offensive rift. However, Datsyuk has been disappointing to good in the playoffs, while Malkin and Crosby have been nothing short of great (though not necessarily in every series) and that tips the scales for me. I think Datsyuk is capable of more of what we saw in 2008, but I just have not seen enough of it to put him ahead overall right now.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Excuses?

Kid, if you ducked my point some more you'd be switching hemispheres.

You can't take a Selke winners stats, who doesn't have nearly as much offensive ice time, and compare it to a player who doesn't play D, doesn't play on the PK and spends more ice time, spending it on offense.

Stop avoiding it, you're being a coward.

And I completely countered it, to which you replied with silence quieter than a corpse.

What "most people" think doesn't mean more to me than the dogs*** in my backyard.

Security in numbers, huh? Keep piping and ignoring logic.

Yeah, my feelings. I also let LOGIC get in the way, too. Presumptuous f***wit.

When you whine like a *****, pout after losses, refuse to give credit to players better than you who PROVE it, and have an inflated sense of entitlement about everything....you are in fact, a s***ty captain. A good captain leads by example. Stevie Y. Nick. Sakic.

LMMFAO

That is the stupidest ******* thing I've ever read. You can be a s***ty captain and win. Captain's don't dictate Cup wins. Moreso their personalities. Yeah, I'm an *******. I'm a whiner. I'm a dirty player. My TEAM won a Cup. I'm instantly lifted of these flaws and I'm a great captain.

STILL waiting for you to name a single s***ty captain who has won the cup...you can't do it you're just wasting your time calling names.

[drwscc 212]

Pavel MFing Datsyuk

[numberthirtynine 0]

Grow up and stop calling people names if you want anyone to take you seriously.

f*** you. You're being argumentative on purpose. You're not only being willingly illogical but you're ignoring counter logic. On purpose.

I've already told you that I think Crosby is better regardless of who is a better two-way player. What more do you want me to say to state my position?

Actually trying to counter what I say would be a good start but you're clearly not here for an intelligent debate. You're here to troll.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

f*** you. You're being argumentative on purpose. You're not only being willingly illogical but you're ignoring counter logic. On purpose.

Actually trying to counter what I say would be a good start but you're clearly not here for an intelligent debate. You're here to troll.

And you're being an ******* on purpose. And you wouldn't know how to f*** me.

Anyway, explain it all to the mods. I'm done with you and your intent to start a flame war with me.

[Echolalia 2,961]

How about them votes?

[Guest micah]

Crosby

[numberthirtynine 0]

STILL waiting for you to name a single s***ty captain who has won the cup...you can't do it you're just wasting your time calling names.

I hope you won't just automatically discount whoever I name.

Anyway, what about Derian Hatcher? Guy was a goon. Played dirty. Attitude was s***. His team happened to be good, and happened to steal a win with a dirty call. Yvonne Courneyer was always a whiny *****, complaining about Bowman because he made him work. Scott Neidermayer is a piece of s***, and plays like a coward. Crosby is a whiner, he hogs attention and throws fits when he doesn't get all the spotlight, he's just a child. Sid the Kid might be the most apt moniker in hockey.

Also, let's not forget some teams win without captains. You'd think a team without a captain would forfeit their chance at victory, right? But it happens. How did that happen!?

Fact is, the captain can be anyone on the team almost. They're one player. A Captain can be injured for a playoff run, have his team win, and he's suddenly a great captain? This is so illogical it makes my head hurt. I haven't seen a reason why this is true other than "well they won, he must be doing something right". Odds are, yes, but not necessarily. It's like the old NFL line-"defense wins championships". It doesn't, it just happens pretty frequently so we assume it MUST be true, when it isn't necessarily true. There's nothing about a Cup winning team that automatically makes a player a great captain. A captain's line can be shut down completely all playoffs and have the other 3 lines score enough to win. He can whine and do no leading of any kind. Now if they squeeze out a win, does he automatically become a good captain? You just haven't explained your stance, but I don't think you can, it's just not logical.

Edited September 4, 2009 by numberthirtynine

[numberthirtynine 0]

And you're being an ******* on purpose. And you wouldn't know how to f*** me.

Anyway, explain it all to the mods. I'm done with you and your intent to start a flame war with me.

Blah blah, s'all I see. You're too scared to address what I say, and instead just repeat your same initial illogical point, even after I've countered it. You're trolling basically, so f*** you. Notice how I didn't attack the other guy like I attacked you? Because he's trying to at least go back and forth in a typical debate-like fashion. You're just being an idiot on purpose.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Blah blah, s'all I see. You're too scared to address what I say, and instead just repeat your same initial illogical point, even after I've countered it. You're trolling basically, so f*** you. Notice how I didn't attack the other guy like I attacked you? Because he's trying to at least go back and forth in a typical debate-like fashion. You're just being an idiot on purpose.

Whatever you say, crazy man.

I've made plenty of arguments in this thread already. Don't know what more want out of me and don't really care anymore. I've addressed your points and don't agree them.

You're the one trolling and purposely insulting me in order to get me banned. I'm not going to take some kid like you seriously until you learn how to talk properly. I think you have no argument in this thread and you're not gonna change my mind by using F words. Learn to be a little more respectful if you want the same treatment in return.

Grow up and welcome to my ignore list.

Edited September 4, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[numberthirtynine 0]

Whatever you say, crazy man.

I've made plenty of arguments in this thread already. Don't know what more want out of me and don't really care anymore. I've addressed your points and don't agree them.

You're the one trolling and purposely insulting me in order to get me banned. I'm not going to take some kid like you seriously until you learn how to talk properly. I think you have no argument in this thread and you're not gonna change my mind by using F words.

Grow up and welcome to my ignore list.

"gretzky and lemieux weren't two ways players, who would you rather have?!"

"crosby and ovechkin aren't gretzky and lemieux, they don't represent every good one way player in the game"

you didn't have much to say. still don't. so please, show me.

Edited September 4, 2009 by numberthirtynine