Jimmy Howard

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

Yeah I mean come on. We drafted him how many years ago??? How long will it take this kid? I'm starting to think he has already reached his potential as a mediocre AHL goaltender.

[herry 12]

IMO Howard can only be judged on what he's done with the big team, and admittedly, it hasn't been much. I also agree that it's getting to the point where he needs to start stepping up. But that being said, what have we seen of him? A handful of games? He's not going to be judged by what he did in Grand Rapids. . . unless he was a total bomb. Everything is different there. They're looking at other stuff at that level. Is he always in the right place? Does he do the right things with the puck? Is he making the initial stop?

Holland must think so, at least to some degree. He's basically left the backup job to Howard. And I'm not about to start questioning Holland at this point. I guess we're going to find out this year, one way or the other, whether Howard if for real or not. Personally, I think it's about high time we found out. And besides, if he stinks up the joint, I'm pretty sure the situation will be fixed before it's too late, whether the bring in another guy, or whatever. The Wings generally are never overly in love with any one goalie. They have shown that they aren't afraid to pull the trigger in that regard. So if Howard is getting killed by midseason, I'm pretty positive we're not going to be seeing him come playoff time anyway.

But right now? What the hell? Throw him in there! You can't treat him with kid gloves forever. It's about time we find out whether he's a keeper or a nothing, and the only way we're going to know is on the big stage. I'm not worried that Babcock and Holland are going to let Howard cost the Wings a top seed in the playoffs. Not by any stretch of the imagination. His place on the depth chart is nowhere near guaranteed. But for now, yeah, I think he needs to get in there. I'd also slip Larrson in there in healthy doses.

[SDavis35 140]

List of Hobey Baker winners (best yearly college players as per Wikipedia):

1981 Neal Broten center University of Minnesota

1982 George McPhee left wing Bowling Green State University

1983 Mark Fusco defense Harvard University

1984 Tom Kurvers defense University of Minnesota Duluth

1985 Bill Watson right wing University of Minnesota Duluth

1986 Scott Fusco center Harvard University

1987 Tony Hrkac center University of North Dakota

1988 Robb Stauber goaltender University of Minnesota

1989 Lane MacDonald left wing Harvard University

1990 Kip Miller center Michigan State University

1991 David Emma center Boston College

1992 Scott Pellerin left wing University of Maine

1993 Paul Kariya left wing University of Maine

1994 Chris Marinucci left wing University of Minnesota Duluth

1995 Brian Holzinger center Bowling Green State University

1996 Brian Bonin center University of Minnesota

1997 Brendan Morrison center University of Michigan

1998 Chris Drury left wing Boston University

1999 Jason Krog center University of New Hampshire

2000 Mike Mottau defense Boston College

2001 Ryan Miller goaltender Michigan State University

2002 Jordan Leopold defense University of Minnesota

2003 Peter Sejna left wing Colorado College

2004 Junior Lessard right wing University of Minnesota Duluth

2005 Marty Sertich center Colorado College

2006 Matt Carle defense University of Denver

2007 Ryan Duncan left wing University of North Dakota

2008 Kevin Porter center University of Michigan

2009 Matt Gilroy defense Boston University

My point being, college standouts don't necessarily always stand out in the NHL... The only standouts I see are Kariya, Miller, Drury, and Broten. I wouldn't bring him up as being an "all american in college" as an argue point.

Brendan Morrision's and Leopold are pretty good players too no?

[redwingcapt 52]

jimmy is the back up, he will put in 25-28 hames this year, win about 18-28 of them, yeah he will win 28 outta 28 cuz he is a boss and the defense is going to be infused with yound talent the offense with young speed. these guys r gonna be on a mission. last year, dont forget we wre 2.2 seconds away and about 3 inches of a shot being higher from sending game 7 to OT and winning back to back cups. jimmy is a tank, kenny likes to mature his players in the minors u know it, and the position Jimmy plays is the most important on the team, so he needs the most time, sure thigns werent as smooth as they coulda been but did any of you think the Ozzy would be where he is now in 1992? none of you, nor did I, since i was born the day his carrier started, but besides that. jimmy wil have a 2.5 gaa and a .910 sv% and 2 shutouts. speaking that our D wll be the best in the Nhl again this year.

can i just put a I HATE GARY BETTMAN SHOUTOUT out there

holla at me bois

GO WINGS

[Casey 145]

thats your opinion, and i have mine and mine is to give him this year to be able to work a little with ozzy too. and if he doesnt get better then yes i agree trade, waive whatever just get rid of him but the guy played one game this year and it was preseason and people are already going against him

I don't think it's just preseason, but his body of work. In Grand Rapids, he's never been below a 2.5 GAA. That's a problem.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Brendan Morrision's and Leopold are pretty good players too no?

Decent players, but busts in my eyes, especially B-Mo. Morrison's college days were so unreal, yes he was drafted in the second round, but that was before he went to college. Dude averaged like 2 points per game, came to the NHL and had 3 DECENT seasons and I'd say only due to playing with Bertuzzi and Naslund.

I guess Leopold is good for what he is expected in the NHL.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I don't think it's just preseason, but his body of work. In Grand Rapids, he's never been below a 2.5 GAA. That's a problem.

He also consistently had a sv% around 0.910 and was never worse than a "good" goalie in the AHL. It's funny that so many people think he failed in the AHL when he actually excelled at times:

# 2005-06 AHL Goaltender of the Month (March)

# 2005-06 AHL PlanetUSA All-Star Team

# 2005-06 AHL All-Rookie Team

# 2006-07 The Hockey News Future Watch (NHL's 71st-best prospect)

# 2007-08 AHL Goaltender of the Month (December)

# 2007-08 AHL PlanetUSA All-Star Team

# 2007-08 The Hockey News Future Watch (NHL's 55th-best prospect)

# 2007-08 Grand Rapids Griffins Man of the Year

# 2008-09 Grand Rapids Griffins Man of the Year

So in 4 years he was an All-Rookie once and an All-Star player twice. Half of his seasons in the AHL were All-Star seasons.

One year he was tied for third in the league in shut-outs (6). His GAA numbers were hurt by the fact that he played on some s***ty teams that couldn't even make the playoffs.

Perfect? No. But someone here called him a mediocre AHL goalie, which is utter bulls***.

[moocat 1]

One fundamental issue with the Red Wings and goalies stems back to Scotty Bowman. The Wings with Bowman at the helm always felt that they needed to have a veteran goalie. This approach was also fostered by Holland, and it worked to the detriment of the goalies in the Wings farm system since the wings could go and get usually whoever then want on the free agent market or could trade for.

Then came the salary cap and the years of the Wings being able to "get by" without having or nurturing top notch goalie prospects came to an end. With Howard being drafted the Wings were starting to rebuild their goalie pool and trying to rectify an area left weakened by injuries, bad drafts, and players dying on the vine due to no room at the top.

When Howard entered the system all hope was the he would become a starter quality goalie and that the Wings would give him time to develop (two to three years). Expecting Howard to make the jump to the big club in dramatic fashion was highly unlikely given the stated plan for his development, the limited opportunities he had at the NHL level, and as you can see below the players that he would have had to unseat in order to be on the Wing's roster (again the Wings veteran philosophy).

Howard's numbers as stated in an above post have never been worse than "good" even on a few not so good Griffin teams. He's played well, and played great at times. However when called up the Wings it's usually been as an emergency replacement and has only seen action in 9 NHL games. 4 games in 05-06, 4 games 07-08, and 1 game last year, and only starting 6 of those appearances. Obviously not a large body of work. (Howard was not even called up in 06-07)

Last year was probably the first year where Howard failed at a chance to grab the backup spot, but I would contend again that it wasn't Howard that lost the spot so much as Conklin giving the Wings a sweetheart contract which again fell into the organizations propensity for picking veterans over younger players (especially goalies). Howard was told that he could win the back up job by having a good camp and pre-season, which was never going to be the case unless Conklin made a poor showing (which he didn't).

Howard led the Red Wings in goals-against average (1.20) and save percentage (.947) in the NHL pre-season before suffering a broken fingertip and missing more than a week. He did everything they asked of him but this opened the door for Holland to send him down due to his year of remaining AHL eligibilty, and allowed him to go with the veteran, Conklin (which worked out very well for the Wings). However I think Howard struggled with not making the big team, and before he knew it Larsson was on fire. He fought back and by mid-season had fixed his game and regained the starting job.

Obviously it's sink or swim time for Howard but he isn't the bust that some would make him out to be at this stage of his career and at this juncture the Wings need to start having their goalie prospects prosper, so it's in all of our best interests to root that he succeeds.

2005-06

34 Manny Legace

30 Chris Osgood

2006-07

39 Dominik Hasek

30 Chris Osgood

2007-08

39 Dominik Hasek

30 Chris Osgood

2008-09

30 Chris Osgood

29 Ty Conklin

Edited September 22, 2009 by moocat

[Drake_Marcus 890]

One fundamental issue with the Red Wings and goalies stems back to Scotty Bowman. The Wings with Bowman at the helm always felt that they needed to have a veteran goalie. This approach was also fostered by Holland, and it worked to the detriment of the goalies in the Wings farm system since the wings could go and get usually whoever then want on the free agent market or could trade for.

...

Fantastic analysis. Best post I've ever read about Red Wings goaltending.

[Snazzy 0]

Larsson allowed 3 goals against the Rangers. And it's ******* Jimmy Howard's fault!

Empty netter against Rangers = I blame Howard!

Wings/Holland should get Luongo and have Brodeur for backup. Ozzy can be 3rd in rotation.... It's all Howard's fault! Wings will never win a single game ever as long as Howard is within a 2,500 mile radius of the Joe. Again, Howard's fault!

Last year, it was all Ozzies fault. 9 out of 10 threads started on LGWs was how Ozzy could not carry this team any more in the playoffs and should be sent down.... I trust faceless LGW posters over Kenny Holland any day of the week. For that, I blame Jimmy Howard!

This thread is by far the lamest every published on a message forum across the world. The thread starter should be shot... and at the very least, should lose his posting privileges on all message forums across the country! OP, stay.off.internet - get.job

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Another interesting note-- although he was poor in his one game call-up last year, the year before he had a four game call-up in which his numbers were 2.13 GAA, .926 SV%. People point out that he didn't win those games, but those numbers clearly indicate it wasn't Jimmy's fault he didn't win them. That call-up happened to be during the horrible 11 game streak in February when the Wings only won a single game and everyone was injured..

[Echolalia 2,961]

I'm not too worried about the goalie situation. Either he can cut it or he can't, and worst case scenario is that we don't win the Cup this year and next year one of McCollum or Larsson or some free agent come in to help out. And the only way that I could see it being Howard's fault that the Wings lose the Cup is if Osgood gets injured after the deadline (so Holland can't make a trade to account for the deficit) and he's out for long enough for Howard to have enough of an opportunity to screw things up for the Wings in the postseason. Certainly its possible that it could happen, but not really that likely (knock on wood).

[russianswede919293 95]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...ck_on_wzam.html

Babs seems to agree...

He is saying that Howard is penciled in but could lose that spot to Howard...

If Larsson outplays Howard I think we will see...

Wings:

Ozzie

Larsson

Griffs:

McCollum

Cloutier

Walleyes:

Pearce

???

Now that is out of Babcock's mouth I think the possibility is something that should indeed be considered

[redwingcapt 52]

HEYYYY GUYS!! osgood played like s***tttt tonight, let in 5 goals in 30 shots, unnnnnnacceptable!

waive him now!!!!

^^kidddding guys but this is your logic with jimmy. give the kid a chance you dumbassesssssssssssss

[Carman 387]

HEYYYY GUYS!! osgood played like s***tttt tonight, let in 5 goals in 30 shots, unnnnnnacceptable!

waive him now!!!!

^^kidddding guys but this is your logic with jimmy. give the kid a chance you dumbassesssssssssssss

No it's not our logic at all. We aren't basing his performance on one game... But really it's not that big of a deal the back up position isn't a season breaking issue and we have plenty of depth in the position. I just don't get how we are awful fans that hate the Red Wing's when Babcock pretty much said the same thing about the situation. Jimmy Howard has yet to impress in the chances he's been given and he is on his last chance. There aren't many options left either he really stands out in the next couple months or he doesn't.

[moocat 1]

blah, blah, blah...

If the numbers are interchangeable like Babs says and they like Larsson then I guess that means they're just as comfortable with Jimmah..eh..

I chalk it up to motivational speak, because if Howard was truly as bad as everyone seems to want to make him out to be then why on earth did they re-sign him last year, and lord knows he wouldn't be on the big club this year.

He'll sink or swim, but he needs to actually play to do that...

Honestly I'm not sure if questioning J-Ho at every turn is the way to build up a young goalies confidence, but I doubt "The Cock" cares...

[Carman 387]

They resigned Howard because he has done a decent job in the AHL and was a great prospect with a lot of value. The thing about Larsson is that was his first year in the AHL and in America. Usually that doesn't bode well for European players, but didn't really miss a beat. Detroit can't really make a big mistake, either Howard does well and stays as a back up or he doesn't and we find a decent replacement, and if the questioning is effecting Howard in anyway then he wouldn't last long as a Detroit goalie afterall.

P.S. Cute nickname for a coach that has more Stanley Cups then you have sentences in your paragraphs.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Carman

[Drake_Marcus 890]

HEYYYY GUYS!! osgood played like s***tttt tonight, let in 5 goals in 30 shots, unnnnnnacceptable!

waive him now!!!!

^^kidddding guys but this is your logic with jimmy. give the kid a chance you dumbassesssssssssssss

Someone spill glue on your keyboard?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

They resigned Howard because he has done a decent job in the AHL and was a great prospect with a lot of value. The thing about Larsson is that was his first year in the AHL and in America. Usually that doesn't bode well for European players, but didn't really miss a beat. Detroit can't really make a big mistake, either Howard does well and stays as a back up or he doesn't and we find a decent replacement, and if the questioning is effecting Howard in anyway then he wouldn't last long as a Detroit goalie afterall.

P.S. Cute nickname for a coach that has more Stanley Cups then you have sentences in your paragraphs.

Hey now. We can't all have nice, fully flushed out paragraphs like you.

[moocat 1]

They resigned Howard because he has done a decent job in the AHL and was a great prospect with a lot of value. The thing about Larsson is that was his first year in the AHL and in America. Usually that doesn't bode well for European players, but didn't really miss a beat. Detroit can't really make a big mistake, either Howard does well and stays as a back up or he doesn't and we find a decent replacement, and if the questioning is effecting Howard in anyway then he wouldn't last long as a Detroit goalie afterall.

P.S. Cute nickname for a coach that has more Stanley Cups then you have sentences in your paragraphs.

I've called Mike Babcock "The Cock" for the entire time he's been the coach. Mostly because he's abrasive as all hell, and has a propensity for saying things and not caring about what the players think. Does this mean I don't like him? Of course not, but it's my chosen nickname for him, and while it's tongue in cheek I don't really care if you like it or not. I also find it very ironic that you're criticizing me for a nickname I use for the coach in a thread that has been ripe with arguments such as "Just because someone wears the Wings logo doesn't mean I have to love them unconditionally" in relation to Howard, and posters reasoning to give him a chance.

P.S. I dearly hope this paragraph was formatted more to your liking, and I appreciate that you took the time to criticize me for my paragraph structure on a quick post while evidently being too stupid to realize that not 8 posts prior to your scintillating reply to me I posted a rather long entry about my thoughts on Howard....that yes, did indeed include paragraphs.

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1779359

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I've called Mike Babcock "The Cock" for the entire time he's been the coach. Mostly because he's abrasive as all hell, and has a propensity for saying things and not caring about what the players think. Does this mean I don't like him? Of course not, but it's my chosen nickname for him, and while it's tongue in cheek I don't really care if you like it or not. I also find it very ironic that you're criticizing me for a nickname I use for the coach in a thread that has been ripe with arguments such as "Just because someone wears the Wings logo doesn't mean I have to love them unconditionally" in relation to Howard, and posters reasoning to give him a chance.

P.S. I dearly hope this paragraph was formatted more to your liking, and I appreciate that you took the time to criticize me for my paragraph structure on a quick post while evidently being too stupid to realize that not 8 posts prior to your scintillating reply to me I posted a rather long entry about my thoughts on Howard....that yes, did indeed include paragraphs.

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1779359

Don't be offended-- think of Carman as the Mike Babcock of post formatting.

[Carman 387]

Eh, I just think it's one thing to criticize a goalie prospect and quite another to criticize a coach who has multiple Stanley Cups. Not saying you don't have the right to do it, I just personally think it's silly. And don't worry about the grammar police, I know I don't put in any effort I was more or less trying to get to the fact that Babcock is a pretty damn good coach and hasn't done a whole lot to warrant a nick name that... umm creative?

[gcom007 1,465]

jimmy is the back up, he will put in 25-28 hames this year, win about 18-28 of them, yeah he will win 28 outta 28 cuz he is a boss and the defense is going to be infused with yound talent the offense with young speed. these guys r gonna be on a mission. last year, dont forget we wre 2.2 seconds away and about 3 inches of a shot being higher from sending game 7 to OT and winning back to back cups. jimmy is a tank, kenny likes to mature his players in the minors u know it, and the position Jimmy plays is the most important on the team, so he needs the most time, sure thigns werent as smooth as they coulda been but did any of you think the Ozzy would be where he is now in 1992? none of you, nor did I, since i was born the day his carrier started, but besides that. jimmy wil have a 2.5 gaa and a .910 sv% and 2 shutouts. speaking that our D wll be the best in the Nhl again this year.

can i just put a I HATE GARY BETTMAN SHOUTOUT out there

holla at me bois

GO WINGS

Some of us have been alive long enough to actually remember Osgood's career. Some of us still clearly remember that fateful game 7 in the first round against San Jose in 1994...

Osgood was able to come in and be a starting NHL playoff goalie at age 21. He was an All-Star at age 23 in 1995/96 and many felt he deserved the Vezina that year. Osgood proved a lot early on in the NHL.

(He also made some costly mistakes that were rather glaring like the game 7 incident that many have unfortunately focused on more than the great things he's done throughout his career.)

But anyways...

Jimmy Howard is 25 and still hasn't managed to earn a backup role until this year now that they're out of options. The management is not sold on him at all. It's been noted again and again the last few years. As of a week ago, Babcock said the only way Howard gets a shot is if Conklin goes because Conklin's going to beat him out for the backup role if they're going head to head.

I'm not arguing that what the OP is saying is absolutely right at all, but I think those trying to prop Howard up are giving him a bit too much credit and benefit of the doubt in general.

More so though, many of you are just overly eager to apply your newly-discovered wisdom courtesy of Chris Osgood in 2008/09. Except the thing is, you've got it all wrong. You're still focusing on over-generalizations. You're not focusing on the details that qualify whether the statement is actually reasonable or not. Just because Osgood came around doesn't make it a general rule. That's just absurd on so many levels and doesn't explain how many of us defended Osgood all last year. Remember how often I said, "quote me on it in June?" It was often if you missed it. Sure, some people are diehards, but some people know what Osgood is capable of because he's proven himself to be capable of such things for years in the NHL and furthermore, we also know how he approaches the playoffs. I had no doubts about Osgood being able to turn it around. I knew he'd be fine when it mattered. Many others did as well because they skip the hype and focus on the details and what's actually reasonable and logical. Using logic tends to yield better results than relying on hyped-up emotional responses.

That said, again, the writings on the wall with Howard. He hasn't done enough to give anyone in management confidence in him to be able to pull his weight simply as a backup. He's getting a shot because it's just about the only option they have left and he hasn't completely bombed out yet. He very well could get on a roll and establish himself as a capable NHL goalie this season, but there's every reason to believe he won't do so as well. It's unreasonable to say that anything's a certainty right now, but it's certainly not unreasonable whatsoever to have concerns or doubts about him.

Again, this isn't just slappy fans. The management is all on board the concerned train as well...

[Drake_Marcus 890]

In the end it doesn't matter too much-- Larsson's the real deal baby.

[Casey 145]

In the end it doesn't matter too much-- Larsson's the real deal baby.

Bet you see Larsson in the Winged Wheel this year, at least for a few games.