LGW is Pro-Enforcer: The Results are In.

[esteef 2,679]

Is Steve Moore gonna headshot another star player?

Would Brad May kick the s*** out of lightweight douches like Jackman or Perry who step up their agitation game by tenfold against the Wings?

Enforcers don't entirely stop 100% of all cheap shots, and no one ever said they did.

esteef

Edited October 6, 2009 by esteef

[Doc Holiday 0]

So Downey's enforcing of Lappy was a success because only one of Detroit's franchise players was injured during that game?

[Doggy 130]

So Downey's enforcing of Lappy was a success because only one of Detroit's franchise players was injured during that game?

No. It was a success because there was a fight in the game. And fights are totally wicked awesome, man!!

[Doc Holiday 0]

No. It was a success because there was a fight in the game. And fights are totally wicked awesome, man!!

I won't argue that a fight is an awesome thing to see, but I cannot understand how an enforcer "prevents" players from committing cheap shots.

Cheap shots have been and are still in the game regardless of an enforcer being in the lineup.

[Guest micah]

No. It was a success because there was a fight in the game. And fights are totally wicked awesome, man!!

That's kinda pretty much it. Without Downey, Lidstrom gets hurt. With Downey, Lidstrom gets hurt and the guy who hurt him gets his ass kicked. Downey's beating of Lappy may have calmed Lappy down, it may not have. Regardless, it was a better game with Downey in than it would have been with Meech in his place.

Did Downey's beating of Lapperierre send a message to others not to eff with Detroit's stars and preevent some injurries? I dunno,maybe. Was Downey'd response to Lappy's hit on Lidstrom better than what any other Wing was capable of doing in response? Absolutely.

[Guest micah]

I won't argue that a fight is an awesome thing to see, but I cannot understand how an enforcer "prevents" players from committing cheap shots.

Maybe it'sone of those things you have to live to understand. Teemu Selane has been around the block, I'll believe his testimony over that of a few dozen random e-fans on LGW.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Maybe it'sone of those things you have to live to understand. Teemu Selane has been around the block, I'll believe his testimony over that of a few dozen random e-fans on LGW.

I'll take the evidence over PC testimony.

[Doggy 130]

I won't argue that a fight is an awesome thing to see, but I cannot understand how an enforcer "prevents" players from committing cheap shots.

Cheap shots have been and are still in the game regardless of an enforcer being in the lineup.

I think that it's just good for team morale. Downey laying the smack down on Lappy was good for his teammates to see because it sets an example. The rest of the team 1) know that if someone cheapshots them, someone will fly the flag for him and make sure it's avenged and 2) encourages them to play with more of an edge and be sure to send a message that they won't get pushed around.

Successful hockey won't allow themselves to be manhandled. This doesn't mean they have to be loaded with goons. It just means they need to have the heart to stand up for themselves and their teammates.

[Guest micah]

I'll take the evidence over PC testimony.

I'm not certain that confessing that you prefer to play hockey when you have a thug on your team who is hired to punch out anyone that f***s with you is an example of political correctness.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I'm not certain that confessing that you prefer to play hockey when you have a thug on your team who is hired to punch out anyone that f***s with you is an example of political correctness.

When you consistently have an enforcer as a teammate, it makes sense not to throw that type of player under the bus.

Matt Bradley-Washington Capitals after Brashear left

It doesn't matter to me if we have a tough guy or not; I play the same way no matter what. A lot of teams nowadays don't have a tough guy and it works to their advantage. Look at Detroit. They don't have any tough guys and they always seem to take advantage on the power play.

So I'm not really worried about that. For me personally, I'm more worried about contributing more offensively. In the playoffs there, I began to put some numbers on the board.

Wayne Gretzky-His own autobiography

"Hockey is the only team sport in the world that actually ENCOURAGES fighting. I have no idea why we let it go on."

"Fights probably bring a lot of people into the building But how many people do they keep OUT of the building?"

"Marty....Semenko...could be in this league if fighting were illegal...I don't think even THOSE guys want to fight. They didn't go through all those years.....just to come to the big-time and play Mike Tyson on skates"

"I don't want to see any more fourteeen-year-olds drop their sticks and gloves and start fighting. That's not hockey"

"Have you ever noticed that during the playoffs the number of fights goes down to about zero? And that's when our best hockey is played. If that isn't proof that we don't need fighting, I don't know what is"

Now I am not saying I agree that there shouldn't be fighting or tought guys in the league (in fact I enjoy fighting as much as any hockey fan). But just because this group of players believes they are protected doesn't mean that the entire NHL believes so.

Some feel protected. Some feel influenced. Some don't. I'm sure some people feel nervous then going one on one with Zdeno Chara, but that doesn't mean that I would want him to defend my team over Nicklas Lidstrom in a one on one scenario.

[chrisdetroit 189]

When the Wings win, they win because they are unquestionably the best team in the league, with superirior skill, toughness, classiness, inteligence, coaching, management and fans to all other teams. When the Ducks or Penguins win, it's luck, cheating, Red Wing injurries or Gary Bettman. That's the impresion I get from reading the rants of some here, anyway.

Maybe some people think that but I give credit where credit is due. Sometimes in sports the best teams win, sometimes they don't. If you feel that the best team always wins then that's you perogative.

I don't feel that the Pens were the best team last year. They were certainly good but if they didn't get alot of breaks they would not have won.

In 2008 when the Wings won the Cup, they blew through everybody. After benching Hasek, they won 9 games in a row. Dallas fought back after the series was all but over and Pittsburgh managed only a single 1 goal win at home and a triple OT win. This year the Pens had to win 2 seperate 7 game series and played against a team of "walking wounded" in the finals. If you think the Pens are the better team, that's your opinion.

Technically the are the "Stanley Cup Champions" but IMO the Championship was tainted.

To state that the "Staley Cup Champion Pens" did this or that as what was stated is a bit silly.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Maybe some people think that but I give credit where credit is due. Sometimes in sports the best teams win, sometimes they don't. If you feel that the best team always wins then that's you perogative.

I don't feel that the Pens were the best team last year. They were certainly good but if they didn't get alot of breaks they would not have won.

In 2008 when the Wings won the Cup, they blew through everybody. After benching Hasek, they won 9 games in a row. Dallas fought back after the series was all but over and Pittsburgh managed only a single 1 goal win at home and a triple OT win. This year the Pens had to win 2 seperate 7 game series and played against a team of "walking wounded" in the finals. If you think the Pens are the better team, that's your opinion.

Technically the are the "Stanley Cup Champions" but IMO the Championship was tainted.

To state that the "Staley Cup Champion Pens" did this or that as what was stated is a bit silly.

The best team is the team that wins the cup at the end of the season. End of story.

The beauty of winning the cup is the fact that it is the hardest trophy in sports to win. Pittsburgh earned it. They made their breaks, and Detroit didn't.

End of ******* story.

[Electrophile 3,554]

Please don't use that phrase on this board. Yes the Pens won the Cup but they were not the best team in the league last year either in the regular season or the playoffs. They won because they got all the breaks plain and simple.

Get over it. The Penguins are the Stanley Cup Champions. That is the title you get when you win the Stanley Cup. The Penguins won the Stanley Cup, therefore they are the Stanley Cup Champions. The Penguins outplayed us. They wanted to win more than we did. So they won. That happens. Now it happened to us.

Quit cryin' about how Pittsburgh got this, that or the other handed to them. They won. Period. To the victor go the spoils.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Electrophile

[kidish 0]

A pure "enforcer" isn't ever going to discourage the rough stuff that happens on the ice. And there's also very few guys in the league who can ONLY fight, that's it. The modern enforcers in the league need to drop the gloves still, but even if they lack softer hands or strong legs, they have to hit.

Players like May aren't enforcers. They fight and hit, but they can also skate on a line and make a pass or two. They aren't complete dead-weight. And while there will still be some rough stuff on the ice regardless of who is out there, it DOES lessen it. Watch any Anaheim (or Philly now) game: when Parros is out there, scrums break up QUICK. He's a forward, so there's no defenseman coming below the hash-marks to stop him.

Or hell, there's a great clip of exactly what it means to have a tough guy on the ice. Ott is cross-checking Niedermayer repeatedly, Giguere from goal rushes him...then Moen hands him his ass.

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[Doc Holiday 0]

I will agree that any player with fists that can take care of a guy like Ott is okay in my lineup.

[esteef 2,679]

But just because this group of players believes they are protected doesn't mean that the entire NHL believes so.

And yet these type of players continue to be signed and played. Funny how that works. Probably just for "entertainment", cause we all know that's the #1 thing on a GM's mind when signing players.

esteef

[chrisdetroit 189]

I think that thread was yanked - last I saw, the score was c140 for an enforcer, c110 against.

Now's the part where you do your thing and question or downplay the results, just like you do for the Stanley Cup Champion Pittsburgh Penguins, led by Stanley Cup Champion Captain Sidney Crosby, protected and inspired throughout the regular season by Stanley Cup Champion Eric Godard.

LOL.

I like to look a little deeper than the headlines... I wish other people would too.

[Doc Holiday 0]

And yet these type of players continue to be signed and played. Funny how that works. Probably just for "entertainment", cause we all know that's the #1 thing on a GM's mind when signing players.

esteef

I am not arguing that an enforcer is "useless". I am arguing that an enforcer isn't a deterrent and that an enforcer isn't someone who is going to suddenly make a team tough and have fewer injuries and cheapshots during the season.

Entertainment, preference, low salary, it doesn't matter. GMs aren't perfect, so all you are doing is making an argument from authority.

Maltby and Draper are still playing. Chelios was on the team last year. Must mean that they had a very good reason to be there and Holland is doing all the right things, right?

[chrisdetroit 189]

The best team is the team that wins the cup at the end of the season. End of story.

The beauty of winning the cup is the fact that it is the hardest trophy in sports to win. Pittsburgh earned it. They made their breaks, and Detroit didn't.

End of ******* story.

I guess we will have to just disagree then

[esteef 2,679]

I am not arguing that an enforcer is "useless". I am arguing that an enforcer isn't a deterrent and that an enforcer isn't someone who is going to suddenly make a team tough and have fewer injuries and cheapshots during the season.

Entertainment, preference, low salary, it doesn't matter. GMs aren't perfect, so all you are doing is making an argument from authority.

GM's aren't perfect? So all these guys in the league are mistakes then? FUN-NY stuff man.

Enforcers ARE a deterrent, they just aren't 100% foolproof (<-which is what you anti's like to hinge your whole argument on). Plus, they don't just stop a lot of cheap s*** from happening, they also create space for other players to work in and keep the intimidation factor at a minimum.

esteef

[Guest micah]

I think the real question isn't so much "are enforcers efeective?", it's more a question of how effective they are. How many heaveyweight enforcers would Detroit have to ice to make Franzen quit diving everytime anyone gives him a dirty look?

[uk_redwing 495]

You never know if a deterrent works until it fails.

[Doc Holiday 0]

GM's aren't perfect? So all these guys in the league are mistakes then? FUN-NY stuff man.

Not what I said but thank you for playing.

Enforcers ARE a deterrent, they just aren't 100% foolproof (<-which is what you anti's like to hinge your whole argument on). Plus, they don't just stop a lot of cheap s*** from happening, they also create space for other players to work in and keep the intimidation factor at a minimum.

esteef

How does a fourth liner create space for a first liner?

Does a fourth liner protect guys like Franzen from getting punched in the face too?

Was Detroit intimindated last year when an enforcer wasn't even in the lineup? En route to a second seed in the playoffs and to game 7 of the stanley cup finals? With 7.4 million invested in a complete piece of garbage?

You say I hinge my arguments on the deterrent factor, but that is essentially what the pro-enforcer crowd hinges their beliefs on. The "magical intimidation" powers that enforcers have. The "well they deter but not 100% of the time" and the maybes and hypotheticals to prove your point. At least I understand that

Detroit's success and failure in the postseason hasn't hinged on enforcers, positively or negatively. Enforcers are entertaining, and make the fans happy if a cheapshot occurs and the victim is avenged. Sometimes they deter. Sometimes not. I am not going to lose sleep over them being in the lineup or if they aren't in the lineup, because I appreciate the sport of hockey. Hockey will be hockey whether there is fighting or not.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Ok, lets say, Detroit needs a Tough Guy, maybe not a flat out Enforcer, but a tough guy who isn't afraid to drop the loves and can actually win a fight once in a while. Brad May does fit that description, but if Holland would have just signed Moen and Malhotra instead of Williams and Eaves, he wouldn't have had to give May a tryout and this team would have three "tough" guys in the form of Bertuzzi, Moen and Malhotra. Toughness, IS needed on this team...

[Chunkylover 26]

See my responses added to your quote below in bold:

I know it's not what you meant, but your statement essentially says we need a fighter to protect us from... Sidney Crosby!? No star player will ever have to defend himself for a cheap-shot. If Crosby were to knock out the rest of OV's teeth with a dirty cross-check, no matter what brawler is in Washington, Crosby will never have to answer for it. Fighting is always optional and volitional. He can just skate away serve a penalty, suspension, whatever, then come back and continue to dominate. Lapperierre didn't get beat up, he chose to fight. If he didn't want to Downey would never have been able to "avenge" his captain. Look at the Flames/Islanders pre-season game where Phaneuf hit Okposo. Phaneuf didn't have to answer for anything, and he never will.

Is Steve Moore gonna headshot another star player?

Would Brad May kick the s*** out of lightweight douches like Jackman or Perry who step up their agitation game by tenfold against the Wings?

Enforcers don't entirely stop 100% of all cheap shots, and no one ever said they did.

esteef

I don't know if the Steve Moore incident is an example of what most people describe as the role of an enforcer.

That's kinda pretty much it. Without Downey, Lidstrom gets hurt. With Downey, Lidstrom gets hurt and the guy who hurt him gets his ass kicked. Downey's beating of Lappy may have calmed Lappy down, it may not have. Regardless, it was a better game with Downey in than it would have been with Meech in his place.

Did Downey's beating of Lapperierre send a message to others not to eff with Detroit's stars and preevent some injurries? I dunno,maybe. Was Downey'd response to Lappy's hit on Lidstrom better than what any other Wing was capable of doing in response? Absolutely.

My point was that no message to that extent was delivered. Star players are always targets. Nobody who is willing to take liberties with a star player is ever going to think twice about having to fight somebody afterward. You're romanticizing the hockey fight.

I think that it's just good for team morale. Downey laying the smack down on Lappy was good for his teammates to see because it sets an example. The rest of the team 1) know that if someone cheapshots them, someone will fly the flag for him and make sure it's avenged and 2) encourages them to play with more of an edge and be sure to send a message that they won't get pushed around.

Successful hockey won't allow themselves to be manhandled. This doesn't mean they have to be loaded with goons. It just means they need to have the heart to stand up for themselves and their teammates.

I think point one is debatable. I think point two probably does happen but not in every case.

A pure "enforcer" isn't ever going to discourage the rough stuff that happens on the ice. And there's also very few guys in the league who can ONLY fight, that's it. The modern enforcers in the league need to drop the gloves still, but even if they lack softer hands or strong legs, they have to hit.

Players like May aren't enforcers. They fight and hit, but they can also skate on a line and make a pass or two. They aren't complete dead-weight. And while there will still be some rough stuff on the ice regardless of who is out there, it DOES lessen it. Watch any Anaheim (or Philly now) game: when Parros is out there, scrums break up QUICK. He's a forward, so there's no defenseman coming below the hash-marks to stop him.

Or hell, there's a great clip of exactly what it means to have a tough guy on the ice. Ott is cross-checking Niedermayer repeatedly, Giguere from goal rushes him...then Moen hands him his ass.

And yet Steve Ott is still a borderline dirty cheap-shot artist. Moen did nothing beyond that one game.

I agree with your description of a useful gritty player. The Wings just haven't had someone who could fill that role since, who, pre-lockout McCarty? There isn't anyone out there even of that caliber for the Wings to sign.