a partner for pasha and the mule

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I would still prefer to see Z and Pavel together. For one, we know it works. Second, I think Filppula needs to be centering the second line at this point. Fil has had plenty of time to develop and we need to see now if he can handle top six minutes centering a line.

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Cleary

Franzen - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Leino - Helm - Williams

Maltby - Draper - Holmstrom

Keep the fourth line off the ice as much as possible at even strength. Ideally, I would rather have Abdelkader and Eaves on the fourth line to add some energy and speed.

[Jake Ryan 1]

I would still prefer to see Z and Pavel together. For one, we know it works. Second, I think Filppula needs to be centering the second line at this point. Fil has had plenty of time to develop and we need to see now if he can handle top six minutes centering a line.

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Cleary

Franzen - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Leino - Helm - Williams

Maltby - Draper - Holmstrom

Keep the fourth line off the ice as much as possible at even strength. Ideally, I would rather have Abdelkader and Eaves on the fourth line to add some energy and speed.

THIS.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Did I imagine Helm playing keep away from 3 guys deep in the offensive zone on a penalty kill for about 30 seconds on his way to the front of the net for a shot last season? I must have been imagining the national play-by-play guys gushing over Helm almost every time he was on the ice.

You're confusing an exceptional shift by a good player for a good shift by an exceptional player. If your logic held serve Alexi Yashin would've been a hall of famer.

They were gushing over Helm's play as an energy guy who hits lots and plays solid defense. Helm is less likely to be a 30+ point player than Meech is to be a first pairing defenseman. Meech has great offensive tools when he uses them, but he just isn't a premier defenseman and there's a better chance that I'll start laying golden eggs than there is of Meech being an elite defenseman or Helm being a top six player.

Seriously. Believing Helm has the hands to become a serious offensive contributor is delusional. He's 25 and he's played a TON of hockey. He was an ok scorer in junior but since the competition level has gone up (AHL, NHL) his lack of offensive ability's become apparent. The Wings aren't asking him to be Datsyuk. They aren't even asking him to be Filppula Jr. Helm's been cast in a certain role and he's excelled in that role. Misconstruing a 5 point playoff run as a glimpse of his offensive brilliance requires the assumption that a 5 point playoff run is offensively brilliant.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Drake_Marcus

[Drake_Marcus 890]

As long as Babcock keeps him on the 4th line with scrub wingers (AKA Maltby and Holmstrom), then Helm will be a good 4th liner. If Babcock pulls his head out and puts Helm with Datsyuk, we might see Helm blossum into a 30 goal/80 point player. The tools are there for Helm to do that. ACG thinks Helm doesn't have any hands. I've seen nothing that would support that statement. He's put away most of his breakaways and has scored goals when he's gotten chances. Helm is a good player, but could be a great player if they gave him a chance to play with great players. If Zetterberg and Datsyuk can make Holmstrom a 25 goal/60 point guy, what do you think they can do with Helm? I'd like to find out.

Christ.

And I suppose if he puts Meech on the top pairing he could blossom into the next Nick Lidstrom?

Do you honestly understand how talented a 30g 80pt NHLer has to be? How amazing their offensive ability, instincts, hands, vision, etc has to be?

Helm has 0 goals and 1 assist in 23 regular season NHL games. He has 6 goals and 3 assists for 9 points in 41 playoff games. Combining those stats we get:

6 goals and 4 assists in 64 NHL games. That averages out to an 8 goal and 5 assist season over 82 games. So that's 13 points in 82 games. An ok rookie total for a grinder, but not the forecast for an elite offensive contributor.

By comparison in Leino's first 13 games he scored 5 goals and 4 assists for a 32g / 25a / 57pt rookie season when averaged over 82 games. That's the kind of start you expect from an offensively gifted individual.

Oh, and earlier I responded to someone who stated Helm was 25 and I accidentally repeated that age. He's actually 22.

[Zetts 236]

Yah, cause only Leino can do that. NO player other than Brett Hull can score 80 points on a line with Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

...no, other players with significant offensive skills can do that. Helm does not have significant offensive skill.

Your posts just went from obnoxious to...well, I don't know if there's even a word for this.

Sirdrake part 2. It's kind of comical.

[e_prime 1,936]

THIS.

I would still prefer to see Z and Pavel together. For one, we know it works. Second, I think Filppula needs to be centering the second line at this point. Fil has had plenty of time to develop and we need to see now if he can handle top six minutes centering a line.

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Cleary

Franzen - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Leino - Helm - Williams

Maltby - Draper - Holmstrom

Keep the fourth line off the ice as much as possible at even strength. Ideally, I would rather have Abdelkader and Eaves on the fourth line to add some energy and speed.

Wait. Jake, all of a sudden it's okay to have Helm back on the third line? I thought he was your first line guy.

Or are you just happy that someone else wants to limit Holmstrom's minutes?

Does anyone else love the B-F-F line? I mean... how can you go wrong with the Best Friends Forever line?

Except that Flip seems to have good chemistry with Leino...

Oh the choices.

Edit: for sanity sake.

Edited October 7, 2009 by e_prime

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

...no, other players with significant offensive skills can do that. Helm does not have significant offensive skill.

Your posts just went from obnoxious to...well, I don't know if there's even a word for this.

Sirdrake part 2. It's kind of comical.

No... just no. sirdrake was a legend, and all of his schemes were well thought out and could've given the Wings a huge advantage had Mike just listened. This guy is nothing like that. (The part about sirdrakes schemes is sarcasm just in case people dont pick it up)

[FedorovMan91 1]

In this thread, Helm is the most skilled offense in this team next to Zetterberg and Datsyuk because Helm can surely score 80 points with Eurotwin. Just wow

[rage 24]

In this thread, Helm is the most skilled offense in this team next to Zetterberg and Datsyuk because Helm can surely score 80 points with Eurotwin. Just wow

Yep. Welcome!!

[ArcticWing 0]

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Leino - Filppula - Franzen

Cleary - Williams - Holmstrom

Abdelkader/maltby - Draper - Helm

[chrisdetroit 189]

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Leino - Filppula - Franzen

Cleary - Williams - Holmstrom

Abdelkader/maltby - Draper - Helm

Bert on the first line? You aren't serious?

[Buppy 1,720]

Bert on the first line? You aren't serious?

Is that really any different than having him on our current 2nd line?

[ComradeWasabi 109]

As long as Babcock keeps him on the 4th line with scrub wingers (AKA Maltby and Holmstrom), then Helm will be a good 4th liner. If Babcock pulls his head out and puts Helm with Datsyuk, we might see Helm blossum into a 30 goal/80 point player. The tools are there for Helm to do that. ACG thinks Helm doesn't have any hands. I've seen nothing that would support that statement. He's put away most of his breakaways and has scored goals when he's gotten chances. Helm is a good player, but could be a great player if they gave him a chance to play with great players. If Zetterberg and Datsyuk can make Holmstrom a 25 goal/60 point guy, what do you think they can do with Helm? I'd like to find out.

ಠ_ಠ

[11iscoming 1]

If Helm's got soft hands I'm a first round draft pick.

Edit: In other words-- don't try to plug a grinder/energy/defensive guy into a scorer's role.

OK, to clear things up, when i said Helm has soft hands i didn´t mean he has datsyuk like soft hands, i meant for an energy guy or compared to Homer.

i realize that helm is not a starplayer or topscorer, but that is the point in the thoughts i had. when you already have Datsyuk and Franzen on a line, why do you need another superstar? sure if you put Z on the line, this would be the best line in the league, but it would make our second and third line weaker. the goal should be balanced scoring. in case of an emergency you can always go back to Z+Pasha+ whoever.

i wouldn´t expect helm to put up 80 points or something, maybe 20-30. i would like to see him on this line to dig the puck free, be in the right places at the right time and get the puck to the starplayers. i have no problem with Homer on that line as long as he can do this things....but that is exactly what i mean, in the first two games he looked like he just isn´t able to do this anymore. at times it seemed like Pasha and Mule would play as a 2-man unit. there were a lot of pucks played along the board in the offensive zone where Homer was supposed to be, but he was always too late.

You have no concept of the game of hockey; I'm terribly sorry.

Helm would not do well on the first line because he doesn't have the skill or the ability to be there. Anyone who knows anything about hockey will tell you that.

It would make FAR more sense to have Cleary, Draper, or Z on the first line. All of them are proven scorers, and if you're looking for an energy guy like Helm, Draper is like an older and more mature version who's got a tiny bit less speed and a developed shot. Same with Cleary. Z speaks for himself.

The truth is though that Homer is of great use on the first line, when you'll usually have Dats and Franzen out there (who can usually take care of cycling by themselves) with Lids and Rafalski; a screen is essential when you have offensive D-men on the point, not only so the keeper can't see as well, but also for rebounds and redirections.

of course would it be better to fill this role on the first line with Cleary, but he already does it on the second line and i really doubt Draper would do better than Helm, cause in principle they are the same player just 17 years apart.

your idea that homer stands in front of the net and Datsyuk, Franzen and the D-men do the cycling may work on powerplays (i have no problem with homer on the pp) but not at even strenght. you need all 3 forwards to do the cycling effective. just watch the two games in stockholm.

and btw skillwise (puckhandling, shooting, skating) i don´t think Homer got an edge on Helm.

Edited October 7, 2009 by 11iscoming

[cupforwings 138]

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Leino - Filppula - Franzen

Cleary - Williams - Holmstrom

Abdelkaer/maltby - Draper - Helm

switch bertuzzi with holmstrom... then its good

Anyone who thinks Helm would be better than Holmstrom on the FIRST line is sadly mistaken... Helm is a good player, but the system the wings play wouldn't really compliment Helms abilities... the wings get their skill guys to make plays and shoot the puck a lot and look for a big body in front of the net to put it away... Thats what Homer does best, although i do agree his abilities have diminished the last couple year or so... But Helm for Homer because he will score 80? come on... thats reaching

[Drake_Marcus 890]

OK, to clear things up, when i said Helm has soft hands i didn´t mean he has datsyuk like soft hands, i meant for an energy guy or compared to Homer.

i realize that helm is not a starplayer or topscorer, but that is the point in the thoughts i had. when you already have Datsyuk and Franzen on line, why do you need another superstar? sure if you put Z on the line, this would be the best line in the league, but it would make our second and third line weaker. the goal should be balanced scoring. in case of an emergency you can always go back to Z+Pasha+ whoever.

i wouldn�t expect helm to put up 80 points or something, maybe 20-30. i would like to see him on this line to dig the puck free, be in the right places at the right time and get the puck to the starplayers. i have no problem with Homer on that line as long as he can do this things....but that is exactly what i mean, in the first to games he looked like he just isn�t able to do this anymore. at times it seemed like Pasha and Mule would play as a 2-man unit. there were a lot of pucks played along the board in the offensive zone where Homer was supposed to be, but he was always too late.

of course would it be better to fill this role on the first line with Cleary, but he already does it on the second line and i really doubt Draper would do better than Helm, cause in principle they are the same player just 17 years apart.

your idea that homer stands in front of the net and Datsyuk, Franzen and the D-men do the cycling may work on powerplays (i have no problem with homer on the pp) but not at even strenght. you need all 3 forwards to do the cycling effective. just watch the two games in stockholm.

and btw skillwise (puckhandling, shooting, skating) i don�t think Homer got an edge on Helm.

Ok. Well then it's just Jake that's crazy.

[Jake Ryan 1]

If Helm got to play with Datsyuk and Zetterberg 15 minutes a game and on the power play, you really don't think he could score 80 points? I guess I might be placing too much faith in Helm. I just know that the crowd went nuts every time Helm was on the ice the last two playoff seasons. And there was a reason for it. He was making awesome plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrWFt-SabQ...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoNu5yo-Rw...feature=related

LISTEN TO THE CROWD AND ANNOUNCERS ON THE THIRD LINK.

Why don't people want this type of play on Zetterberg and Datsyuk's line? WHY? I can't understand it for the life of me. Why do people want to see a slow, ineffective, one dimensional sissy skating with the two best players on the team when they could have someone like Darren Helm making plays to open up ice for Pavs and Z? If Babcock doesn't recognize this, then he's an idiot.

[Finnish Wing 110]

If Helm got to play with Datsyuk and Zetterberg 15 minutes a game and on the power play, you really don't think he could score 80 points? I guess I might be placing too much faith in Helm. I just know that the crowd went nuts every time Helm was on the ice the last two playoff seasons. And there was a reason for it. He was making awesome plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrWFt-SabQ...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoNu5yo-Rw...feature=related

LISTEN TO THE CROWD AND ANNOUNCERS ON THE THIRD LINK.

Why don't people want this type of play on Zetterberg and Datsyuk's line? WHY? I can't understand it for the life of me. Why do people want to see a slow, ineffective, one dimensional sissy skating with the two best players on the team when they could have someone like Darren Helm making plays to open up ice for Pavs and Z? If Babcock doesn't recognize this, then he's an idiot.

IMO Cleary is not "slow, innefective, one dimensional sissy skating". (although I would easily put Homer there over Helm too)

Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Cleary

Franzen-Filppula-Leino

Bertuzzi-Helm-Williams

Holmstrom-Draper-Maltby/Eaves

Easily the best lineup possible.

[Jake Ryan 1]

Ok, Finnish Wing. At least you're willing to compromise. I like what you're getting at. Just keep Ninety-Sux AWAY FROM Z, Dats, Cleary, Filppula, Franzen, Williams, Helm, Leino, Abdelkader, and Bertuzzi. Let him Poison Draper and Maltby all he wants, but keep him away from the rest of the players. I agree with you there.

(I wasn't talking about Cleary, btw. You know that!)

P.S. Did you see that play Cleary made in game 1 where he stopped it and backhanded it in front of the net all while he was doing a 360? The goalie mad a great save, but that was some serious hand-eye coordination from Cleary.

[e_prime 1,936]

If Helm got to play with Datsyuk and Zetterberg 15 minutes a game and on the power play, you really don't think he could score 80 points? I guess I might be placing too much faith in Helm. I just know that the crowd went nuts every time Helm was on the ice the last two playoff seasons. And there was a reason for it. He was making awesome plays.

Now you're limiting his time with Dats and Z? He's certainly less likely to score those 80 points if he's only getting limited time with them. Be real. Just because a guy has hustle and works hard does not mean that he's a first line forward.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Holmstrom is a better fit on that first line and he has proven it.

LISTEN TO THE CROWD AND ANNOUNCERS ON THE THIRD LINK.

Whoever yells the loudest wins the debate, huh?

...and I don't trust the crowd or announcers to make my hockey decisions. I look to Babcock.

If Babcock doesn't recognize this, then he's an idiot.

Oh no you didn't.

[ltgator333 3]

I didn't read the whole thread. Oh well.

Coach Babcock's not a fool and really, the season will probably bring plenty of line juggling. Lets see what happens, eh?

[cupforwings 138]

LISTEN TO THE CROWD AND ANNOUNCERS ON THE THIRD LINK.

Why don't people want this type of play on Zetterberg and Datsyuk's line? WHY? I can't understand it for the life of me. Why do people want to see a slow, ineffective, one dimensional sissy skating with the two best players on the team when they could have someone like Darren Helm making plays to open up ice for Pavs and Z? If Babcock doesn't recognize this, then he's an idiot.

the volume of the crowd and announcers means absolutely nothing... I'm not sure I understand how a cheering crowd in a PLAYOFF GAME on a PENALTY KILL will have any effect on Helm being a great goal scorer...

I think you are missing the point here... Helm is not a GOAL scorer... he works hard, and can get goals... his role is to do exactly what that video proved: give us energy... He is not big like Homer and can't stand in front of the net, which is exactly the kind of hockey the Wings play... helm is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he wouldn't be more effective than Homer on the first line.

Edited October 7, 2009 by cupforwings

[Buppy 1,720]

...

i realize that helm is not a starplayer or topscorer, but that is the point in the thoughts i had. when you already have Datsyuk and Franzen on line, why do you need another superstar? sure if you put Z on the line, this would be the best line in the league, but it would make our second and third line weaker. the goal should be balanced scoring. in case of an emergency you can always go back to Z+Pasha+ whoever.

...

i would like to see him on this line to dig the puck free, be in the right places at the right time and get the puck to the starplayers.

...

your idea that homer stands in front of the net and Datsyuk, Franzen and the D-men do the cycling may work on powerplays (i have no problem with homer on the pp) but not at even strenght. you need all 3 forwards to do the cycling effective. just watch the two games in stockholm.

and btw skillwise (puckhandling, shooting, skating) i don�t think Homer got an edge on Helm.

Homer is not a star player, nor is Bert, Cleary, Williams, Leino, or Flip. But all would be better suited to a top line role than Helm. Eaves would probably even be better. There's just no evidence that Helm could consistently do the things you list. You can't judge him by the 6 or 8 really good shifts (or in Jake's case, one great shift) and then forget the other 700 shifts where he hasn't done anything. The only skills Helm has over Homer is speed, hitting, and defense. Homer is a better passer, puckhandler, shooter, and most importantly, is accustomed to playing with highly skilled players...he knows how to compliment their ability without getting in their way.

And you don't need three forwards to run the cycle. Aside from the Russian 5 days, the Wings have typically used two forwards and a defenseman, with the third forward on the opposite side near the net to occupy a opposing defenseman (or get an open shot on goalie moving laterally) and be in position to screen or get a deflection/rebound. It helps to have all three forwards (and both d-men) able to cycle effectively, but it's not needed. Besides, Homer is better at it than Helm anyway.

[Jake Ryan 1]

Homer is not a star player, nor is Bert, Cleary, Williams, Leino, or Flip. But all would be better suited to a top line role than Helm. Eaves would probably even be better. There's just no evidence that Helm could consistently do the things you list. You can't judge him by the 6 or 8 really good shifts (or in Jake's case, one great shift) and then forget the other 700 shifts where he hasn't done anything. The only skills Helm has over Homer is speed, hitting, and defense. Homer is a better passer, puckhandler, shooter, and most importantly, is accustomed to playing with highly skilled players...he knows how to compliment their ability without getting in their way.

And you don't need three forwards to run the cycle. Aside from the Russian 5 days, the Wings have typically used two forwards and a defenseman, with the third forward on the opposite side near the net to occupy a opposing defenseman (or get an open shot on goalie moving laterally) and be in position to screen or get a deflection/rebound. It helps to have all three forwards (and both d-men) able to cycle effectively, but it's not needed. Besides, Homer is better at it than Helm anyway.

Holmstrom is NOT a better puck passer, puck handler, shooter, or anything better than Helm. That's hogwash. Holmstrom gets to play with better players. That's all there is to it. And I'd like to see that changed. Holmstrom doesn't make Zetterberg and Datsyuk better. I think Helm could.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

If Helm got to play with Datsyuk and Zetterberg 15 minutes a game and on the power play, you really don't think he could score 80 points? I guess I might be placing too much faith in Helm. I just know that the crowd went nuts every time Helm was on the ice the last two playoff seasons. And there was a reason for it. He was making awesome plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrWFt-SabQ...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoNu5yo-Rw...feature=related

LISTEN TO THE CROWD AND ANNOUNCERS ON THE THIRD LINK.

Why don't people want this type of play on Zetterberg and Datsyuk's line? WHY? I can't understand it for the life of me. Why do people want to see a slow, ineffective, one dimensional sissy skating with the two best players on the team when they could have someone like Darren Helm making plays to open up ice for Pavs and Z? If Babcock doesn't recognize this, then he's an idiot.

If Helm could score 80 points on a line with Dats and Z then literally anyone in the NHL could. Helm's hand are below average as far as NHL players go. His 'scoring upside' is tiny. If you project his career we'd be looking at somewhere around 25-35 points as his peak output. He's basically Draper with a little less scoring upside (believe it or not Draper was an ok goal scorer in his prime). I know people like to say it's the other way around, but those people are forgetting Draper's pre-lockout goal totals.