a partner for pasha and the mule

[Finnish Wing 110]

Funny how people think that you can compare players using only YouTube clips. "No video on YouTube of Homer deking = Homer has no hands and sucks."

[Doc Holiday 0]

I gotta say I think Jake is the best troll ever.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Things Holmstrom does well.

+Front net presence.

I don't see how I'm biased. I'm watching hockey and saying what I see. Fact is the first line has been limited in even strength play. They cannot hold offensive possession, and I'm going to say what I think is the problem. Holmstrom has never been known for his defensive play, and was a big concern ever since he started with Bowman. He cannot skate well, therefore he cannot forecheck or back check well. And he isn't getting any faster.

You are biased because you want to ignore the facts that don't support your argument. The best stats to determine defensive ability (though not a perfect one) is +/- and Homer's is pretty good. Not fantastic but not bad. Instead, you want to base your opinion on "what you see" instead of the facts. That my friend is biased. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. Everybody is entitled to one but your's isn't supported by some of the facts.

[chrisdetroit 189]

+38 is not all that impressive for an 11 year career. And that's all been since he's been playing mostly top line with some great players on a team that has for the most part been very good both offensively and defensively. He was -16 pre-lockout, -45 in his first 6 seasons... Draper is a +73 career (even with his decline over the past few years), Maltby was well above +38 for a while...and those are guys who rarely score and spent a lot of their time playing against top lines.

'Weak' may or may not be a bit too far, my perception skewed by a team that has produced 6 Selke trophies since '94, but still, Homer is not and never has been particularly good defensively. Agreed. He is not great defensively but he's not weak either.

More importantly, none of that, nor Bertuzzi, really have anything to do with what I was talking about anyway. The point of the quoted post was that Homer's skills have not significantly fallen off. He had a bad playoff run, just like Datsyuk and Hossa. The only thing that may have declined is his ability to absorb punishment without injury.agreed

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

I gotta say I think Jake is the best troll ever.

I agree. What's killing me is that he gets away with flaming, baiting, belittleing other posters (he dogged SWF early in the thread) and the mods do nothing. I must be more of a moosefart than him since I've gotten posts deleted that are nowhere near as inflammatory as his.

edit: i recently got one deleted for telling folks to stay on topic. So, "f*ck" is no longer acceptable here? Geez.

Edited October 8, 2009 by HOCKEY MATTERS

[chrisdetroit 189]

He played with Iginla -1, and David Moss -4. I'm by no means saying he is a defensive god. But Holland got him to play in the top 6 no matter what fans on a forum think is right.

That still sucks. He's playing with guys that are -1 and -4 and he's -13. Ouch!

Yes, Babs has him in the top 6 and I hope he does well but my bet is that he's on a very short leash. On the face of it it looks like a questionable move but Babs knows a hell of a lot more about it than me and anybody else on LGW so I trust him.

[Jake Ryan 1]

You are biased because you want to ignore the facts that don't support your argument. The best stats to determine defensive ability (though not a perfect one) is +/- and Homer's is pretty good. Not fantastic but not bad. Instead, you want to base your opinion on "what you see" instead of the facts. That my friend is biased. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. Everybody is entitled to one but your's isn't supported by some of the facts.

The thing is - it's NOT that good. Over the last 21 games, he's a minus 2. How is that "pretty good". Like I said, I'm not going to discredit Holmstrom's past accomplishments. He was a valueable contributor to the Wings in years past. However, his effectiveness TODAY is what I am upset about. He's WASHED UP. How many games of him sucking do you need to see before you throw in the towel too?

[Jake Ryan 1]

I agree. What's killing me is that he gets away with flaming, baiting, belittleing other posters (he dogged SWF early in the thread) and the mods do nothing. I must be more of a moosefart than him since I've gotten posts deleted that are nowhere near as inflammatory as his.

edit: i recently got one deleted for telling folks to stay on topic. So, "f*ck" is no longer acceptable here? Geez.

Please stay on topic. This is about Holmstrom and his poor play. Not Jake Ryan. If you don't have anything to contribute about Tomas Holmstrom and how bad he has been playing since his injury, then just refrain from posting. Thank you.

P.S. There is a reminder thread with all the rules listed. Just follow those and you'll be ok. The mods here are pretty fair and tollerant, if you want my opinion.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

Please stay on topic. This is about Holmstrom and his poor play. Not Jake Ryan. If you don't have anything to contribute about Tomas Holmstrom and how bad he has been playing since his injury, then just refrain from posting. Thank you.

P.S. There is a reminder thread with all the rules listed. Just follow those and you'll be ok. The mods here are pretty fair and tollerant, if you want my opinion.

Actually, you need to stay on topic. Go back to the Original Post and read. Here, I've copied part of it for you:

"this is not meant as another homer bashing thread, it is just a thread about (thinking about) maximizing the outcome (pointwise) of their (pasha,mule) skills."

This thread is not about Homer or his level of play. If all you have to contribute is random thoughts and facts based on Homer, I think you should refrain from posting.

Follow the rules and think you will still be messed up...sorry.

[Carman 387]

You are biased because you want to ignore the facts that don't support your argument. The best stats to determine defensive ability (though not a perfect one) is +/- and Homer's is pretty good. Not fantastic but not bad. Instead, you want to base your opinion on "what you see" instead of the facts. That my friend is biased. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. Everybody is entitled to one but your's isn't supported by some of the facts.

I'm not ignoring any facts. +/- isn't a very telling stat for defensive play. Ovechkin is somehow a + player while never actually being in the defensive zone. I'd rather judge defensive play by seeing defensive responsibility and ability to get back on the back check, work along the boards and break out passes IE. What the Selke is based on and the Norris, I guess those trophies are jokes since they are primarily based on +/-? Hockey is not that difficult of a game to take in, and to realize who is doing good and who isn't. When you have the best player on your team completely hindered in 2 games, without really having that many scoring chances. It's not hard to see what the problem was. Also saying my opinion doesn't matter because it's not supported by facts? Really? Cheecoo is a 50 goal scorer and Maltby has more points then Datsyuk with about 6 minutes of less ice time. Stats/facts don't always tell the whole story, I much rather use my hockey sense, along with stats rather then living in a world where goals posts mean nothing and all shots are equal. So please save me another paragraph and just ignore my opinion if you want, but don't tell me I can't have it because it isn't supported by 'your' facts.

[Jake Ryan 1]

Actually, you need to stay on topic. Go back to the Original Post and read. Here, I've copied part of it for you:

"this is not meant as another homer bashing thread, it is just a thread about (thinking about) maximizing the outcome (pointwise) of their (pasha,mule) skills."

This thread is not about Homer or his level of play. If all you have to contribute is random thoughts and facts based on Homer, I think you should refrain from posting.

Follow the rules and think you will still be messed up...sorry.

I told you already. Helm for Holmstrom. Problem solved. The only thing is that most of the fans on here don't want to let go of their HHO's, so no matter how bad Datsyuk and Zetterberg get affected by Holmstrom, they'll still defend him.

"nooooooooooooooo, let's not put that guy with lightning speed and bonecrushing checks on a line with Datsyuk and Franzen. I don't see how that could open the ice for Datsyuk and Franzen. Let's leave the slowest guy on the team who's injured on their line. That should really spark it."

It's absurd.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

I told you already. Helm for Holmstrom. Problem solved. The only thing is that most of the fans on here don't want to let go of their HHO's, so no matter how bad Datsyuk and Zetterberg get affected by Holmstrom, they'll still defend him.

"nooooooooooooooo, let's not put that guy with lightning speed and bonecrushing checks on a line with Datsyuk and Franzen. I don't see how that could open the ice for Datsyuk and Franzen. Let's leave the slowest guy on the team who's injured on their line. That should really spark it."

It's absurd.

Helm for Holmstrom was said a long time ago. Since then, most of your posts have been about running Homer up the flag pole. That is not in the spirit of this thread. You've defended yourself at every turn, but you keep going back to the Homer bashing.

I wonder how long the Mods will let you go on, distracting the thread, changing it's very topic....

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

Please stay on topic. This is about Holmstrom and his poor play. Not Jake Ryan. If you don't have anything to contribute about Tomas Holmstrom and how bad he has been playing since his injury, then just refrain from posting. Thank you.

P.S. There is a reminder thread with all the rules listed. Just follow those and you'll be ok. The mods here are pretty fair and tollerant, if you want my opinion.

You would think that, wouldn't ya, sugar-lips.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

Actually, you need to stay on topic. Go back to the Original Post and read. Here, I've copied part of it for you:

"this is not meant as another homer bashing thread, it is just a thread about (thinking about) maximizing the outcome (pointwise) of their (pasha,mule) skills."

This thread is not about Homer or his level of play. If all you have to contribute is random thoughts and facts based on Homer, I think you should refrain from posting.

Follow the rules and think you will still be messed up...sorry.

Messed up, but actually entertaining.

[Jake Ryan 1]

Helm for Holmstrom was said a long time ago. Since then, most of your posts have been about running Homer up the flag pole. That is not in the spirit of this thread. You've defended yourself at every turn, but you keep going back to the Homer bashing.

I wonder how long the Mods will let you go on, distracting the thread, changing it's very topic....

What you're failing to realize is that the two issues go hand in hand. "Finding another partner for Pasha and the Mule". Who is their current partner? That's right. Tomas Holmstrom. So it's not out of topic to recommend Helm, give supporting arguments for all of his attributes, and then to tell why those attributes are better than what is currently going on. It wouldn't be a very interesting thread if we just had "Helm", "Cleary", or "Leino" written for every post without any arguments, would it? No. More people are catching on to the FACT that Holmstrom cannot play good hockey anymore. Just because you are upset about that, doesn't mean you should shoot the messenger. I agree with Carman that stats don't always tell the whole story (especially over short periods). But I'm not going to sit there and be told that the Selke winner and Hart candidate is the problem or that the Conn Smythe Trophy winner and arguably best player on the team needs to "pick up his game". That's just assinine. Speed kills. In any sport, speed and defense win championships. Holmstrom offers neither of these. So why the hell would anyone want to see him playing with skill players on our team? That's just not smart. Helm offers everything needed to open up space for guys like Z, Datsyuk, Franzen, and Bertuzzi. Speed, Agressiveness, forechecking, backchecking, energy, relentlessness. That's why the crowd cheers every time he touches the puck. How long is Babcock going to keep his HHO and cripple our top players by letting a slow, over the hill, poor skating, has been remain on the top line? That's the real dilema.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

Helm for Holmstrom was said a long time ago. Since then, most of your posts have been about running Homer up the flag pole. That is not in the spirit of this thread. You've defended yourself at every turn, but you keep going back to the Homer bashing.

I wonder how long the Mods will let you go on, distracting the thread, changing it's very topic....

Good question...

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

What you're failing to realize is that the two issues go hand in hand. "Finding another partner for Pasha and the Mule". Who is their current partner? That's right. Tomas Holmstrom. So it's not out of topic to recommend Helm, give supporting arguments for all of his attributes, and then to tell why those attributes are better than what is currently going on. It wouldn't be a very interesting thread if we just had "Helm", "Cleary", or "Leino" written for every post without any arguments, would it? No. More people are catching on to the FACT that Holmstrom cannot play good hockey anymore. Just because you are upset about that, doesn't mean you should shoot the messenger. I agree with Carman that stats don't always tell the whole story (especially over short periods). But I'm not going to sit there and be told that the Selke winner and Hart candidate is the problem or that the Conn Smythe Trophy winner and arguably best player on the team needs to "pick up his game". That's just assinine. Speed kills. In any sport, speed and defense win championships. Holmstrom offers neither of these. So why the hell would anyone want to see him playing with skill players on our team? That's just not smart. Helm offers everything needed to open up space for guys like Z, Datsyuk, Franzen, and Bertuzzi. Speed, Agressiveness, forechecking, backchecking, energy, relentlessness. That's why the crowd cheers every time he touches the puck. How long is Babcock going to keep his HHO and cripple our top players by letting a slow, over the hill, poor skating, has been remain on the top line? That's the real dilema.

Once again...I'll type slower so maybe you can read it easier....

The thread is not about Homer bashing. You say Helm would be better, and I don't necessarily disagree with that 100%. You aren't giving arguments for Helm, rather arguments against Holmstrom. I agree that Homer may be getting too much ice time and slowing things down, but I'm not an NHL coach, and neither are you (are you?). We don't really get to see what goes on behind the scenes and in Babcock's head.

My point is this. Knock off the Homer bashing and stick to the topic. Suggest a replacement and argue for it, not against Holmstrom. The negativity around here is just appalling, and you know the old saying about saying something nice, right?

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I can't decide whether this or ESAD's masterpiece is the bigger troll thread plaguing the front page right now. The enforcer thread is about twice as long, but I think Ninety-Sux has made more with less. Thoughts?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Heroes of Hockeytown

[Jake Ryan 1]

Once again...I'll type slower so maybe you can read it easier....

The thread is not about Homer bashing. You say Helm would be better, and I don't necessarily disagree with that 100%. You aren't giving arguments for Helm, rather arguments against Holmstrom. I agree that Homer may be getting too much ice time and slowing things down, but I'm not an NHL coach, and neither are you (are you?). We don't really get to see what goes on behind the scenes and in Babcock's head.

My point is this. Knock off the Homer bashing and stick to the topic. Suggest a replacement and argue for it, not against Holmstrom. The negativity around here is just appalling, and you know the old saying about saying something nice, right?

Alright. You make a good point. I'm just real passionate about the Wings, and I HATE seeing them lose. To me, the problem with Holmstrom is the major issue that's wrong with the team right now, so it makes me mad when everybody ignores it on here or looks for some other reason the Wings can't fix what's wrong. But I think you're right. I could cool it a little bit with the Holmstrom bashing. It's not like he's the devil or anything.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

Alright. You make a good point. I'm just real passionate about the Wings, and I HATE seeing them lose. To me, the problem with Holmstrom is the major issue that's wrong with the team right now, so it makes me mad when everybody ignores it on here or looks for some other reason the Wings can't fix what's wrong. But I think you're right. I could cool it a little bit with the Holmstrom bashing. It's not like he's the devil or anything.

Wow. You're giving up much sooner than I would have thought. You feelin allright? Lemme take your tempachure. Bend over..... lol. j/k, man, j/k

[ilmickeyli 40]

this thread makes my head hurt

[Jake Ryan 1]

Wow. You're giving up much sooner than I would have thought. You feelin allright? Lemme take your tempachure. Bend over..... lol. j/k, man, j/k

Nah, you guys are right. 10 pages of it is enough. Let's move on. I think people around here are catching on, because I was the ONLY one who felt this way back when the Anaheim series was halfway through. But I see a lot more people moving Holmstrom down to the 4th line in their line-ups, so I know I'm not on an island or anything in feeling that way. Let's all just pray that Babcock loses his HHO so Pavs can recover from his awful case of Holmstromeningitis. 25 games is too long.

[AtomicPunk 296]

I noticed several times in the game tonight when the Wings dumped it in, the first one on the puck was...Homer. Just sayin.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I noticed several times in the game tonight when the Wings dumped it in, the first one on the puck was...Homer. Just sayin.

Homer was also the direct cause of the first Blackhawks' goal.

[Jake Ryan 1]

Homer was also the direct cause of the first Blackhawks' goal.

Which part? The part where he shot it in 10 feet short of the red line and caused the icing or the part where he passed it 6 feet behind his teammate and Chicago intercepted it and turned it into a goal? Which crappy ass play are you speaking of? The guy is so lost out there 5 on 5. Datsyuk has a severe case of Holmstromeningitis because of Babcock's HHO. It's really sad.