Finnish Wing 110 Report post Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) OK, so the point is to place our players in order in terms of "value". "Value" in this case means: small cap hit + good player = big value. So basically the top of the list has bargains and bottom of the list has overpaid guys. I'm gonna put my own list here. I rate players based on how "valuable" they're healthy (basically Franzen has no value to us right now). 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg 3. Osgood 4. Leino 5. Lilja 6. Franzen 7. Lidstrom 8. Helm 9. Ericsson 10. Williams 11. Kronwall 12. Filppula 13. Cleary 14. May 15. Bertuzzi 16. Maltby 17. Eaves 18. Meech 19. Holmstrom 20. Draper 21. Rafalski 22. Lebda 23. Howard 24. Stuart I didn't explain my choices, but if you don't agree - and I don't think you will in all choices - I'll explain. Post your lists. edit: And if you think that I'm crazy and the list is totally weird you may have missed the point of the list. Edited October 10, 2009 by Finnish Wing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Stuart at 24? If cap hit is taken into account, Stuart should be higher than Rafalski. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Finnish Wing 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) Stuart at 24? If cap hit is taken into account, Stuart should be higher than Rafalski. Well you can have many views about that. I personally think that Stuart and Raffi both make too many bad turnovers. Raffi is still so good offensively and at the point that 4M for Stuart who is not so special in any area is more overpaid deal than 6M for Raffi. You can argue about it, but that's just what I think. You didn't post your own list, so I assume it looks totally same as mine (besides that Raffi-Stuart thing)? : D Edited October 10, 2009 by Finnish Wing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 1. May 2. Zetterberg 3. Leino 4. Datsyuk 5. Ericsson 6. Franzen 7. Stuart 8. Kronwall 9. Helm 10. Lidstrom 11. Osgood 12. Maltby 13. Cleary 14. Flippula 15. Williams 16. Bertuzzi 17. Rafalski 18. Meech 19. Holmstrom 20. Draper 21. Eaves 22. Abdelkader 23. Lilja 24. Lebda 568970942. Howard Rafalski's deal isn't a great one, but he is a perfect fit with our team and we had to pay it to get him, he is so important to our offense as a whole, and he isn't flashy so a lot of what he does gets taken for granted. Stuart would be a #2 at least on most teams, he makes some iffy plays, but he is also very steady and physical which is something that is really needed on our backend. Datsyuk is slipping down fast, hopefully he can pick it up but between the playoffs and the start of the season it's not been good. Lidstrom deserves his money, but he didn't play like a 7.450 player this year and I'm not expecting too much more once he is aging, by no means is he a bad deal but he isn't a steal anymore for that much. Hard to rate Lilja, before his injury he was inconsistent, he was on a stretch of doing well, but he hasn't played in a long long time... Haven't seen much of Williams/Bertuzzi neither are doing bad, both are making about what they deserve. Holmstrom is the best front presence in the NHL, but the worst even strength first liner in the NHL as well, for 2 million I guess it's not a horrible deal if he can continue to keep our powerplay in the top 5 of the NHL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedatsyukian 7 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 The best defenseman in hockey, our power play QB, shutdown specialist, and our teams tenured captain is being severely underrated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 The best defenseman in hockey, our power play QB, shutdown specialist, and our teams tenured captain is being severely underrated. You mean Chara? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedatsyukian 7 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 You mean Chara? No, I do not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) No, I do not. I was joking, but I don't think Lidstrom's contract is a steal anymore, he certainly isn't hands down the best defenseman anymore, *notice* I said hands down he certainly can be and I think he is still in the top 3, but being 40 years old this will be the worse his contract will ever look, and it's not a bad. Edited October 10, 2009 by Carman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AD2044 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Stuart 24 you guys amaze me with all the different type of threads you start just to rip on Stuart. Go Stuey and Go Wings Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 For Lidstrom's contract to be a "Steal" he'd have to be scoring 100 points and 30 goals, as a defenseman. Hes paid perfectly fine and possibly more than he should be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Kind of early to really evaluate for most of the players. So going off past performance + expectations: 1. Osgood - Far, far, far ahead of anyone else. 2. Ericsson - Optimistic perhaps, definitely needs to step up from his first three games 3. Helm - Optimistic again, but great potential 4. Leino - Same as above 5. Zetterberg - Better be, now that Mule is down 6. Datsyuk 7. Lidstrom 8. Franzen 9. Kronwall 10. Lilja 11. Cleary 12. Wiliams 13. Stuart 14. Filppula 15. Abdelkader 16. Rafalski 17. May 18. Bertuzzi 19. Holmstrom 20. Maltby 21. Draper 22. Eaves - Could elevate considerably 23. Meech 24. Lebda 25. Larsson 26. Howard - Yeah, I don't have much faith in Howie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 How are you guys honestly putting Lidstrom (the best defenseman possibly ever, and if not that, then certainly since Orr) in the 7-10 range?! Good God, it's like the guy hasn't won four Cups, a Conn Smythe, six Norris Trophies (third to only Orr and Harvey). Even at $7.45m a year, he's still an effing steal. Ask how many other teams would take Lids at $8m; the answer is every one. My top 5 would go something like this: 1. Z 2. Lidstrom 3. Kronwall 4. Osgood 5. Dats Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 How are you guys honestly putting Lidstrom (the best defenseman possibly ever, and if not that, then certainly since Orr) in the 7-10 range?! Good God, it's like the guy hasn't won four Cups, a Conn Smythe, six Norris Trophies (third to only Orr and Harvey). Even at $7.45m a year, he's still an effing steal. Ask how many other teams would take Lids at $8m; the answer is every one. My top 5 would go something like this: 1. Z 2. Lidstrom 3. Kronwall 4. Osgood 5. Dats Past performance dictates current value? Datsyuk gets paid less and does more for the team. $8 million puts Lidstrom in the top five paid players in the league, when in fact he is not a top five player in the league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) The author said skill/amount paid. No doubt Lidstrom has the most skill, but he is also one the highest paid defenseman in the game. He is getting paid what he is, he isn't underpaid, he isn't overpaid therefore he is right 8-10 range. I don't see what the issue is? Zetterberg is probably worth more then he is getting paid therefore he is ranked higher, Leino is worth a lot more then he is getting paid therefore he is a higher. I was joking with the May thing he is a good 500k player though imo. Edited October 10, 2009 by Carman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Past performance dictates current value? Datsyuk gets paid less and does more for the team. $8 million puts Lidstrom in the top five paid players in the league, when in fact he is not a top five player in the league. You're joking, right? The top defenseman in the league isn't a top 5 player? Every team would literally kill for the chance at Lidstrom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 You're joking, right? The top defenseman in the league isn't a top 5 player? Every team would literally kill for the chance at Lidstrom. Different teams have different needs and people would offer a hell of a lot more for Chara than they would for a year of services with Lidstrom. Pronger and Neidermeyer would get better trade offers because they're younger and would offer more to a potential team. With as highly as you rate Lidstrom, you make it seem like if he were a free agent tomorrow he could sign a five year deal at age 40. His play has gone down hill, it started two seasons ago but was only realized when Chara won the Norris. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 You're joking, right? The top defenseman in the league isn't a top 5 player? Every team would literally kill for the chance at Lidstrom. If he was a top 5 player he would have been a shoe in on his team for Conn Smythe(Much like he was in 02), and not be 3rd place in Norris voting(Unlike the past 15 years). Lidstrom is still a very good defensemen, might even be the best if he rebounds from a sub par year. But it's not like he isn't human and can have a prime of 20 years no matter how smart of a player we know he is. He is almost 40. Every team would kill for the chance at practically every other top 20 player as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 #1. The whole Red Wings Organization and the fact that we're lucky enough to have the best team in professional sports to call our own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Different teams have different needs and people would offer a hell of a lot more for Chara than they would for a year of services with Lidstrom. Pronger and Neidermeyer would get better trade offers because they're younger and would offer more to a potential team. With as highly as you rate Lidstrom, you make it seem like if he were a free agent tomorrow he could sign a five year deal at age 40. His play has gone down hill, it started two seasons ago but was only realized when Chara won the Norris. Lids is going down hill? Sure you can argue that scoring 62 points is bad after scoring 80 the year before, but he still scored 62 points and was defensively responsible. Oh, and he won the Norris. I don't see why a team wouldn't offer him a 5 year deal offer tomorrow if he was a UFA. He's proved that he's still got plenty in the tank, and plenty of teams would be willing to take the chance for their guys to at least learn from him. Let's not forget he's missed less time to injury than Chelios has, and Chelios is still playing pro hockey. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Lids is going down hill? Sure you can argue that scoring 62 points is bad after scoring 80 the year before, but he still scored 62 points and was defensively responsible. Oh, and he won the Norris. I don't see why a team wouldn't offer him a 5 year deal offer tomorrow if he was a UFA. He's proved that he's still got plenty in the tank, and plenty of teams would be willing to take the chance for their guys to at least learn from him. Let's not forget he's missed less time to injury than Chelios has, and Chelios is still playing pro hockey. You're just being a homer. No team in the league is offering Lidstrom a 5 year $30 million dollar deal(discount) at the age of 40. Only Detroit and the Rangers pay for past performance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Selke13 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 that list is straight up ridiculous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 You're just being a homer. No team in the league is offering Lidstrom a 5 year $30 million dollar deal(discount) at the age of 40. Only Detroit and the Rangers pay for past performance. Yep, they're not gonna offer a deal to a guy that had a 59 point season when he was 39 (Chara had 50 pts). You're totally right and not wrong at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Yep, they're not gonna offer a deal to a guy that had a 59 point season when he was 39 (Chara had 50 pts). You're totally right and not wrong at all. "A deal" is not a five year deal. Theres no doubt that Lidstrom could sign a one year deal with plenty of teams. Very few would be willing to go multiple years. Its OK though, its the Red Wings. Players never get worse and if they do people reference awards they won a decade ago to justify calling them the best in the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 "A deal" is not a five year deal. Theres no doubt that Lidstrom could sign a one year deal with plenty of teams. Very few would be willing to go multiple years. Its OK though, its the Red Wings. Players never get worse and if they do people reference awards they won a decade ago to justify calling them the best in the game. No, I referenced his numbers from the last three years (you know, when he's been ~5 years older than Chara is now?) AND his won hardware to prove that you're an idiot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 No, I referenced his numbers from the last three years (you know, when he's been ~5 years older than Chara is now?) AND his won hardware to prove that you're an idiot. Reference Holmstrom's numbers from three years ago and justify his presence on the top line. Its a meaningless argument. Teams don't sign players based on past performance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites