John Buccigross Talks About The Wings In His Mailbag

[Namingway 146]

I guess stevie Y was far past his prime after the 88-89 season

Edited October 22, 2009 by Namingway

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

If Malkin had no goals right now it would be a slump, when it's Datsyuk it's age catching up with him.

To predict anything this early in the season is retarded. Case in point, the Leafs.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Wings_Dynasty

[Winged_Wheeler 3]

Z and Pav are in their primes right now. Unforunately, injuries are still plaguing the Red Wings. Plus, we've had deep playoff runs for the last few seasons, players get tired from that.

[Guest mindfly]

I thought the prime for a forward in nhl was 28-30years old while a defenseman at 31-33... :S

[Opie 308]

If Malkin had no goals right now it would be a slump, when it's Datsyuk it's age catching up with him.

To predict anything this early in the season is retarded. Case in point, the Leafs.

** Whole post not aimed at you!

One thing of note on this theory, if the two players were the same age you would have better ground to stand on, as it is in this comparison one player is 31 and the other 23 (turns 24 during the season). The fact that one plays for the Pens should have 0 to do with it.

7 years, especially through your 20's is a huge difference, more so than 31-38 or 45-52, your body and your mind mature (for most) in your mid to late 20s.

_Reminds of a buddy my age (I am 32) who always dates 23 year olds and always complains that they never have the same life goals or that they are too immature. Well no s*** 32-23 is a huge age difference especially in the 20's.

Most males (myself not included) go from Boys to Men in their 20s, that is a huge jump ( I am never growing up).

My point here, the reason why it is a slump for Malkin is because he is 23, still learning, still young, still growing, and is already one of the top 3 forwards in the game (based on Reg season awards and my opinion).

Males begin to slow at age 31-34, just a natural fact of science and nature.

But no where in the article does Bucci (who states Dats is past his prime) say Dats' age is catching up with him, that saying may be used for Pronger to start this season whom is 35 (a bad age to sign a free agent) and presumably on his last contract and last legs in the league.

Is he still a top tier defensemen, yes. Is he as good as he has been in the recent past, not yet, however young season.

Also Prime does not mean that just because Pav's is past his prime he can't have his best year ever, it just means he is past the point where the average athlete is the most affective and impactful.

Man now I know why I became a lurker on these boards.

This thread alone (not this one poster) shows the limited ability to process written language and create your own though on this board. I would love to do a poll and see how many people read the article before spouting off or just did it based on other's posts.

Next some one will tell me that the Nucks are overpaying Sammy by giving him that 6.5 Mil a year salary. ( JOKE)

[crotty99 302]

http://thetripledeke.blogspot.com/2009/10/...-harder-to.html

[Doc Holiday 0]

I am going to talk about each point that he makes in this article and try to give my most unbiased viewpoint.

First of all, Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg are no longer in their NHL prime. Datsyuk is 31 and Zetterberg is 29. Those are not "prime" ages to play a nine-month NHL season (training camp to the Cup finals).

No, they are not.

We've noted in this space for years -- hockey is a young man's game. Maurice Richard was 23 when he scored 59 goals in 50 games during the 1944-45 season. Bobby Orr was 22 when he scored 120 points and flew through the air to win his first Stanley Cup in 1970. Wayne Gretzky was 21 when he went 92-120-212 in the 1981-82 regular season. Sidney Crosby was 21 this past June when he became the youngest NHL captain to raise the holy grail.

Zetterberg was also in his late twenties when he won the Conn Smythe, Lidstrom was over 30 when he won his last Norris, and Datsyuk was over 30 when he was the top three in hart voting.

Yes, the younger players are the sexier picks, but there are still older talents that can make a big impact on a team.

Younger players are more energetic, more durable, heal quicker and, most important, have heightened mental clarity because younger people think only of the present, which is the key to creativity and productivity. I'm not saying Datsyuk and Zetterberg are Joe Paterno and Bobby Bowden and will never win another Stanley Cup. Just realize that players get injured more in their 30s and begin a downward arc in their production.

Possibly. However this is only a prediction, and it has been shown Detroit has a good number of players who have hit their prime at much older ages than the "younger talents" in the NHL. Sure they may be an anomaly, but so is Detroit's team.

Secondly, the Wings are probably at the end of their run. Their best players are older and their younger players are average NHL players. They continue to live off their power players and struggle with their penalty killing and goaltending. The injury to Johan Franzen is enormous. The Red Wings will struggle to score goals and that is a problem because they are not constructed to prevent them. Coach Mike Babcock may have to make some alterations to the Wings' normal style of play and GM Ken Holland may have to reach into his bag of tricks and try to find a goaltender.

Their leading scorer is Thomas Holmstrom. Valterri Filpulla has been their best player. They have had to rely on role players and second tier scorers to win games for them from the get go, because Datsyuk has been off his game/injured, and Zetterberg has just started to get in his game. I don't understand where you get the "living off power players" idea from. It has been the exact opposite.

Penalty killing has also not been too bad compared to last year, and the goaltending has been spotty, but we are also seven games into the season. Osgood has at least shown he can win a game for the team, which wasn't the case last regular season, and that is all Detroit should ask from a goaltender of that salary.

The first step is a healthy Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and go from there. Detroit won't win the Central Division, but it has all season to get ready for the playoffs, when Franzen can hopefully return healthy. There is still a lot of good in Detroit, just maybe not championship good.

Championship good remains to be seen. Detroit's 07 team was 3-4-1 to start the season, and last year Detroit had struggles all year (just not in the division). Pittsburgh last year was looking at tenth place in February last season. There is a long way to go, so there is no reason to count out Detroit yet. The same Detroit team that has been to the conference finals three years in a row and the Stanley Cup Finals twice in a row.

Of course, eventually the predictions of doom and gloom will be correct, but it won't be because someone had clear insight. It is just because the "analysts" playing the odds finally paid off.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I've always thought 27-28 was prime for a forward. 30 for a blueliner. 30-34 for a goalie.

By this logic, Z and Pavel are a hair "past their prime". Butnot enough to base an entire thesis around.

You can make a point that Bucci is isn't far off, but my problem is that he comes at this topic with a little to much zeal.

The pundits are all over the Wings early. There is no debating this.

[xtrememachine1 795]

Save this link for the spring... we'll all get a good laugh then

[Vladifan 680]

I miss when age and intelligence trumped youth. Remember 2002 when by today's standards Yzerman, Shannahan, Robitaille, Hull, Larionov, and probably Fedorov were "past their prime"?

At that point our "youth" was probably average.

That year may have been a fluke due to the INSANE amount of talent, but what a year.

(I didn't include Lidstrom because defensemen seem to generally be considered in their prime later than forwards. But an argument could be made I suppose.)

ALL excellent points. The only frustrating part about Bucci's statement is that for years, he's backed the Red Wings. Maybe he's ticked because recently, they haven't lived up to his expectations.

[hokike 1]

This thread alone (not this one poster) shows the limited ability to process written language and create your own though on this board. I would love to do a poll and see how many people read the article before spouting off or just did it based on other's posts.

gotta agree with that. LEARN TO READ!

Forumites, do not take everything word by word, also.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

This thread alone (not this one poster) shows the limited ability to process written language and create your own though on this board. I would love to do a poll and see how many people read the article before spouting off or just did it based on other's posts.

agreed.

The only thing that matches the degree to which people trash Wings players here is their inflated sense of outrage if anyone else says something even remotely negative.

[Theophany 110]

Food for thought on comparing Dats and Z (over the hill) vs OV, Crosby, and Malkin:

For '08-'09:

Dats was a +34, Z was a +13.

OV was a +8, Malkin a +17, and Crosby a +3.

OV, Crosby, and Z were basically first-liners all last year. Z was considerably ahead of his two peers.

Malkin and Dats were both second-liners. Datsyuk was again, far ahead of Malkin.

So can we draw the conclusion that this illustrates the difference between young vs old? That older players play more defensively as they get older?

Or is it just an intangible that people don't really look at? Do people like Bucci only look at points and when Dats and Z are only (LOL) putting up 97 and 73 that they're past their prime?

[Chunkylover 26]

Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman were both over thirty when they won their respective Conn Smythes. Zetterberg was better than Crosby for two straight Finals. Malkin and Datsyuk are even as far as production goes over the last two Final matchups. Osgood also played better than his younger counterpart.

On paper this team should be the joke of the NHL: multiple late-round picks in key positions, less than three-million combined for goaltenders, more than a few cast-offs and first-round busts. Add to that three long seasons, recent lapses, and key injuries, and on paper it makes sense to pick against the Wings.

Nevertheless, Buccigross is cherry-picking a few instances for the sake of brevity to support his argument, kind of like I did at the start of my post. This works because there are so many variable to consider in making a prediction that one has to stand on the most logical evidence. No reason to laugh at someone for being wrong about a prediction; why should he feel bad that he couldn't see the future accurately?

As for me, I picked the Bruins and Wings in the Final this year, and both are out of it with only (!) 60+ games to go. Boy is my face red.

[Anomalously 0]

Didn't Lidstrom win his first Norris Trophy at 30 or 31 and continue dominating the NHL long into his 30s?

I think that Buccigross points to Orr and Gretzky at 22 as if these are the primes of normal NHLers when most players are just rookies at 22 really speaks to the fact that he's uninformed here.

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

Buccigross is an f-ing moron. He's been wrong the past 10+ years on his Stanley Cup final predictions. He knows dick about hockey. Datsyuk and Zetterberg past their prime??? LOL They basically just hit their prime. And they're both relatively young still. Buccigross is a fool.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Buccigross is an f-ing moron. He's been wrong the past 10+ years on his Stanley Cup final predictions. He knows dick about hockey. Datsyuk and Zetterberg past their prime??? LOL They basically just hit their prime. And they're both relatively young still. Buccigross is a fool.

Your post not only shows that you know little about hockey and it's history, but also very little about proper grammar.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Buccigross is an f-ing moron. He's been wrong the past 10+ years on his Stanley Cup final predictions. He knows dick about hockey. Datsyuk and Zetterberg past their prime??? LOL They basically just hit their prime. And they're both relatively young still. Buccigross is a fool.

Did you even read the article?

Buccigross is actually better than most when it comes to predictions. The season is long, so Cup predictions at the start of the season are a total crap shoot. But once it hits playoffs it's a different story. I've been reading his column for a while, and he gets it right more than he gets it wrong.

God forbid he say something slightly negative about the Wings.

The only thing I think Bucci was off about is not being clear about "prime" meaning point production versus "prime" meaning well rounded hockey player. Because most great players do produce more early in their career. they're typically faster, more durable, heal quicker, like he mentions, but they're also often on crappy teams as the only star player, and not as responsible defensively.

And Datsyuk at 31 is not relatively young. Zetterberg's not old, but he's not exactly a young player either.

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

Your post not only shows that you know little about hockey and it's history, but also very little about proper grammar.

Really? Exactly where did I falter grammatically? And how does me hating on Buccigross have ANYTHING to do with my knowledge of hockey and it's history? You're a sharp fellah.

Edited October 23, 2009 by TheDetroitRedWings

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

And Datsyuk at 31 is not relatively young.

Yeah, actually it is. Considering he came into the league at 25. And he's been fairly durable (at least when it comes to long term injuries) and speed has never really been a part of Pavel's game. 2 years ago the guy was in his 20's for God's sake. It's not like he's in his late or even mid 30s yet. As for Bucci, I've noticed since the '06 season that he has taken quite a few jabs at the Wings. I say f*** Buccigross.

Edited October 23, 2009 by TheDetroitRedWings

[thedisappearer 291]

Buccigross is an f-ing moron.4

Should be "Buccigross is a ******* moron". An says the next word starts with a vowel. And Bucci is right more than he's wrong, though I agree he's wrong here, especially about Dats. I think his game will last into the late 30's.

Edited October 23, 2009 by thedisappearer

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

Should be "Buccigross is a ******* moron". An says the next word starts with a vowel.

I was typing it as you would read it. Not as "*******," but as f-ing (ef-ing). Therefore I needed the "an."

[Doc Holiday 0]

How about be a big boy and just say the word if you are so compelled to?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

While Datsyuk definitely looked damned good last night, what Buccigross was saying isn't really all that far off. Datsyuk and Zetterberg can still be forces, maybe more than he might think, but the Central Divison is better, and with the Wings somewhat slow start, it makes you wander even though the season is long and there's still plenty to determine.

I find it funny in here when people get so worked up over analysts' opinions or predictions and they pull their hair out if somebody goes against the Wings. Some in here spend so much time ripping on their own players or team which is okay, yet when an outside source does it, it's all of a sudden not the hip/cool thing to do and the source is an idiot.

Pretty comical to me.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Yeah, actually it is. Considering he came into the league at 25. And he's been fairly durable (at least when it comes to long term injuries) and speed has never really been a part of Pavel's game. 2 years ago the guy was in his 20's for God's sake. It's not like he's in his late or even mid 30s yet. As for Bucci, I've noticed since the '06 season that he has taken quite a few jabs at the Wings. I say f*** Buccigross.

Actually, it's not. Him coming into the league at 25 doesn't magically make him younger. It means he spent fewer of his young years in the NHL than most guys.

He has been fairly durable, but he's still 31. That's not young. He also missed a big chunk of last playoffs, was injured during the playoffs the year before the Cup win. And was injured to start this season. I don't think it's chronic, but if anything it only confirms what Bucci is saying about older players getting hurt more. Chelios was and is as big of a fitness freak as you'll ever find, but his game still deteriorated every year no matter how hard he trained. There's some aspects of aging you just can't overcome.

Fine, you don't like Buccigross because of the few negative things he's said about the Wings. How dare he. He's also said tons of positive things, but those don't get posted here. It's only the criticisms that get everyone's knickers in a twist.

He's still more often right than he is wrong.