OHL Hit

[Doc Holiday 0]

There you go discussing legality again. I said a long time ago that I'm not debating the legality.

If you don't understand the difference between getting hit in open ice and getting squashed on the boards... well, I guess I just don't know what to say to that. Each of those hits hurt for different reasons and do different sorts of damage. Trust me.

I understand the difference, but the fact is that you are the only person I've ever encountered that believes a hit to the boards can be considered dirty just based on the fact it is a hit to the boards.

Watching hockey must be very trying for you to see all these scrums and hits in the corners.

[I Red Wings I 40]

Okay I'll say it since no one else has the cojenes to. A lot of you are some serious prima donnas, high hit, armor shoulder pads? The pads are too hard? Give me a break, kid got wrecked

[Broken 16 381]

I understand the difference, but the fact is that you are the only person I've ever encountered that believes a hit to the boards can be considered dirty just based on the fact it is a hit to the boards.

Watching hockey must be very trying for you to see all these scrums and hits in the corners.

When did I ever say that? Please quote me or shut up. Thank you.

I said a long time ago that I thought he lead high.

What exactly are you championing right now? A kid got squashed on the boards badly. Is in critical condition. His mom saw it and fainted. And all you can contribute is videos of other hits and arguments of legality.

Must suck to be that jaded.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Broken 16

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Okay I'll say it since no one else has the cojenes to. A lot of you are some serious prima donnas, high hit, armor shoulder pads? The pads are too hard? Give me a break, kid got wrecked

That's just ignorant. I am the biggest pro-toughness person in the world, but a horrible incident as this doesn't require comments such as this. I was at the Lions game in the early 1990s in which Utley broke his neck for the Lions. The eerie silence in the crowd was like nothing I've ever experienced at a sporting event.

This kid is a 16 year old with hockey talent that still goes to k-12 school. Saying he got wrecked is disturbing. See, people here think I'm just a pro goon rip 'em up fan. Absolutely not, I'm a hockey purist that believes in the game. Horrible incidents such as this are the equivalent to a trajedy in a Nascar race. They can happen, but saying someone got wrecked is really not needed.

[Guest Four]

In cases like this; regarding debating between if or not someone placed a clean hit... I think you must look at past history of the player. It's just like in court, see if the tendancies have been this way in the past. I haven't followed the OHL in the past few years as closely... what's your thoughts?

I hope this kid comes through okay, head injuries are so scary.

You want history?

One of many dirty hits, this one on Tavares.

An excellent post from another forum made by an Otter fan;

If an enforcer can also score, like Shanahan, they don't come back for their overage season. NHL Goons probably put up pretty good numbers in the OHL - because even goons need to be able to take a shift in the NHL. Darren McCarty scored 50 goals in junior. Steve Downie can play hockey.

That hit wasn't simply hard hitting - it was dirty. Liambas was out there looking to hurt somebody. He runs the kid, and circles around to see who is coming to the kids aid and sticks him in the mouth. Hard, tough hockey is not thug goon hockey.

The OHL is a developmental league - how can the league encourage kids to choose the OHL if they can't protect them? How many parents saw that hit and decided that their 2010 OHL draft pick kid is going to go the college route? Does the OHL want to lose top talented kids because they allow some no talent goon to run roughshod all over the ice?

Jeff Kugel was kicked out of the league for coming off the bench to enter a brawl, and all he did was chase a little fella around for a bit.

And H&WR, I'm not even going to waste my time with you. I made this thread to show the hit, not create a huge argument. Instead of hoping the guys okay, you resort to bashing me and saying I'm wrong. Get a life and quit arguing. It was an intent to injure, and he has a history of doing so. He charges players all the time.

[LidstromIsASuperhero 29]

Let's put it this way. The kid got wrecked because he did not protect himself at all times, but at the same time Liambas probably could have eased up a bit more. Whether or not it was technically legal is not what I'm debating, but show a little class. I look at it as a gentleman's agreement here. You could go out there and be an ass hole and try to hurt 16 year old kids after they let go of the puck, or you could play classy and check hard when there's a good reason to- like when you are trying to put the body on someone to knock them off the puck. There's no need need to do what Liamba or Lamb Chop or whatever his name is did. He'll get beat up for it either way I'm sure.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

A post from another forum from a fan at the game:

I was at the game, I can't be very wordy right now (I'll explain in a sec) but I had to reply.

This is the result of the NHL's refusal to take head shots and head hunters seriously. The kids in Jr are trying to get into the NHL so they emulate what they see on the hilite reels. Liambis is a 20 yr old over-ager with 4 career goals and he just cut Fanelli down. A 16 yr old kid with a world of potential prior to last night.

A lot of the fans left the building as they couldn't stop shaking and really couldn't care less about hockey itself after that incident. I can say I've been a die hard hockey fan for over 30 years and prior to last night, I don't believe I've ever cried at a hockey game or seen anywhere near that many people crying in the stands and on the ice.

I'm going to cut it here rather than getting on a soap box, after watching in horror for 40 minutes while paramedics fought to save the kid's life, with his parents nearby in the crowd and the teams gathered in prayer circles at center ice, and the kid that hit him bawling his eyes out in the walkway for the zamboni (he was thrown out of the game). I have a hard time caring much about hockey anymore until the idiots like Campbell and Burke stop their refusal to acknowledge the head hunting problem and the NHL (and hockey in general) does something to stop this once and for all.

[Broken 16 381]

and the kid that hit him bawling his eyes out in the walkway for the zamboni

That might be the only silver lining in this story. Maybe that reject will think twice before head hunting again.

Thanks for digging that stuff up ESAD.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Broken 16

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

You want history?

One of many dirty hits, this one on Tavares.

An excellent post from another forum made by an Otter fan;

And H&WR, I'm not even going to waste my time with you. I made this thread to show the hit, not create a huge argument. Instead of hoping the guys okay, you resort to bashing me and saying I'm wrong. Get a life and quit arguing. It was an intent to injure, and he has a history of doing so. He charges players all the time.

My first post in this thread:

First of all, I hope the kid will be okay.

Second of all, dude saw the train coming...twice! You can't spin like that to turn your back on somebody and not expect to get hit. He wasn't looking where he should have been. The guys elbows were tucked and he had his guy lined up for a check. That's the name of the game here, folks.

It sucks the kid went down like that, but I don't see anything deserving of a penalty.

An excerpt from a subsequent post of mine:

Again, I hope the kid is okay.

Slow down big fella! You are making guesses and assumptions, then stating them as fact. I refer to the intent to injure part. Fine, you showed the hit. You also posted this at the same time:

I live very close to Kitchener and I'm sure some of you have heard or seen this already. Terrible hit.

When you state an opinion on LGW, some are going to agree with you and some won't. We know which group I stand in. Dissenting opinions is what keeps things like this going. I think I'm right, you think you are right. One of us is wrong. As I said...if you don't want to be called out on the playground, stay inside at recess. As for this guy's history, I'll be honest and tell you I don't know s*** about him, and I also don't care. I'm talking about this hit.

And relax, I'm okay with you disagreeing with me.

Good luck to the Fanelli family.

[skyphoenix 153]

Wow that is absolutely terrible. I really hope this kid can recover from that. Very dangerous hit.

[Guest Four]

My first post in this thread:

An excerpt from a subsequent post of mine:

Slow down big fella! You are making guesses and assumptions, then stating them as fact. I refer to the intent to injure part. Fine, you showed the hit. You also posted this at the same time:

When you state an opinion on LGW, some are going to agree with you and some won't. We know which group I stand in. Dissenting opinions is what keeps things like this going. I think I'm right, you think you are right. One of us is wrong. As I said...if you don't want to be called out on the playground, stay inside at recess. As for this guy's history, I'll be honest and tell you I don't know s*** about him, and I also don't care. I'm talking about this hit.

And relax, I'm okay with you disagreeing with me.

Good luck to the Fanelli family.

I called it a terrible hit, and it was. What good came out of that hit? Please tell me.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

I called it a terrible hit, and it was. What good came out of that hit? Please tell me.

If Fanelli ever plays again, and I pray for a full recovery for him, he has probably learned a lesson here. That probably sounds cold, but it isn't meant to. This is a tough sport we watch and play. The next time something like this goes down, I'll bet he doesn't turn his back. That's the best I can come up with. Nobody said that a good hit can't have terrible consequences, and that is just what happened here.

Is it a s***ty deal for Fanelli? Yes, without a doubt.

Was there anything wrong with the hit? Nope, other than the outcome, of course.

Suspension worthy? Only if suspensions are given out for the result of "good hockey gone bad".

[kook_10 1,705]

That might be the only silver lining in this story. Maybe that reject will think twice before head hunting again.

Thanks for digging that stuff up ESAD.

That guy has 13pts and 357 PIM in the OHL. He also apparently played in the IHL for a stint. Is it common for players to return to juniors after playing in semi-pro leagues? It seems surprising to me that a player could move up to the IHL and come back and play with 16 year olds - especially as an enforcer type.

[Doc Holiday 0]

When did I ever say that? Please quote me or shut up. Thank you.

You believe that the Konstantinov hit in the 97 finals isn't comparable because it was open ice. You didn't speak about the fact he caught his head in the hit (from my vantage point) or attempt to disagree with that point.

I said a long time ago that I thought he lead high.

And one of my first responses was that Konstantinov looked to lead high on his hit as well. You then dismissed it saying it was completely different because it was from center.

What exactly are you championing right now? A kid got squashed on the boards badly. Is in critical condition. His mom saw it and fainted. And all you can contribute is videos of other hits and arguments of legality.

I'm not championing anything. It is awful he got so injured, and even replied to ESAD about it. But the fact is an injury doesn't only stem from dirty hits. It comes from clean hits and plays where one of the two involved could have done something to prevent the injury. This time it was the victim of the hit who turned at the last second.

Must suck to be that jaded.

What stake do I have here? I support neither team, nor either player. And I do not support injuries.

[Doggy 130]

An excellent post from another forum made by an Otter fan;

A post from another forum from a fan at the game:

Thanks for those posts. This is why I didn't like the hit. It's a 16 year old kid. These guys are trying to improve their game and become great hockey players. They don't need to be fighting or laying hits like this. It's the CHL, not the NHL. They can play tough, but not like this. Particularly when there are 16 year olds out there. The size difference between the average male at 20 and the average male at 16 is huge. Dangerously big, and this demonstrates that.

Furthermore, these guys are still learning and developing their hockey senses. They will make mistakes like Fanelli made. It's just incredibly sad the price he has to pay is so high. It shouldn't have to happen. If the CHL teaches its players to play tough without crossing the fine line into dirty, as well as encourages respect for your opponent it will translate to a new, better type of grit in the NHL.

I'm not saying there is no place for hitting in the game, because there most certainly is. I'm also not saying that the result of this incident was entirely Liambas fault. But the hit was unnecessary.

Let the kids play hockey. Let them learn and develop and become the Ovechkin's, Crosby's and Tavares' we love to watch now. Leave the fighting and huge hits for the mature leagues where they're (usually) fully developed and most importantly, know how to protect themselves.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Doggy

[Doc Holiday 0]

Thanks for those posts. This is why I didn't like the hit. It's a 16 year old kid. These guys are trying to improve their game and become great hockey players. They don't need to be fighting or laying hits like this. It's the CHL, not the NHL. They can play tough, but not like this. Particularly when there are 16 year olds out there. The size difference between the average male at 20 and the average male at 16 is huge. Dangerously big, and this demonstrates that.

Furthermore, these guys are still learning and developing their hockey senses. They will make mistakes like Fanelli made. It's just incredibly sad the price he has to pay is so high. It shouldn't have to happen. If the CHL teaches its players to play tough without crossing the fine line into dirty, as well as encourages respect for your opponent it will translate to a new, better type of grit in the NHL.

I'm not saying there is no place for hitting in the game, because there most certainly is. I'm also not saying that the result of this incident was entirely Liambas fault. But the hit was unnecessary.

Let the kids play hockey. Let them learn and develop and become the Ovechkin's, Crosby's and Tavares' we love to watch now. Leave the fighting and huge hits for the mature leagues where they're (usually) fully developed and most importantly, know how to protect themselves.

You know not every player in the OHL moves on from there and plays more competitive hockey.

As a player, I will go for every hit I can make if I know my chances of making the NHL are slim and nil (and especially if I could have the chance to make it but need the extra oomph).

You do make a good point, but are players who probably will never play in the NHL supposed to coddle these young guys simply for development's sake?

[Doggy 130]

You know not every player in the OHL moves on from there and plays more competitive hockey.

As a player, I will go for every hit I can make if I know my chances of making the NHL are slim and nil (and especially if I could have the chance to make it but need the extra oomph).

You do make a good point, but are players who probably will never play in the NHL supposed to coddle these young guys simply for development's sake?

I'm looking at it from strictly the league's POV. They certainly need to make sure their players, particularly the underage ones, are well-protected.

Now from a player's POV... I'll tell you one thing with certainty. No NHL club will sign nor draft a junior player for his hitting. If they want to sign a grinder they look for experienced players in the AHL. You don't add grit from the CHL. Finishing your checks is fine, but if you wanna get drafted I suggest you concentrate on your stick-handling, positioning, shooting, face-offs, pokechecking, shot-blocking, stick-lifting, play-reading, skating, passing, conditioning, size, strength, power, vision, poise, teamwork, leadership, etc. This is the s*** junior players should be learning.

Anyone can finish a check like that guy just did. Who can poke-check like Nick, dangle like Datsyuk, deflect like Homer, see the ice like Thornton, shoot like AO, protect the puck like Hank, backhand like Sundin, slap it like Chara, win a draw like Perrault, etc... ?

An 18 year old that thinks making a hit like that will get him on an NHL scouts shortlist is kidding himself. That's not what the CHL is about. At all.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I'm looking at it from strictly the league's POV. They certainly need to make sure their players, particularly the underage ones, are well-protected.

Now from a player's POV... I'll tell you one thing with certainty. No NHL club will sign nor draft a junior player for his hitting. If they want to sign a grinder they look for experienced players in the AHL. You don't add grit from the CHL. Finishing your checks is fine, but if you wanna get drafted I suggest you concentrate on your stick-handling, positioning, shooting, face-offs, pokechecking, shot-blocking, stick-lifting, play-reading, skating, passing, conditioning, size, strength, power, vision, poise, teamwork, leadership, etc. This is the s*** junior players should be learning.

Anyone can finish a check like that guy just did. Who can poke-check like Nick, dangle like Datsyuk, deflect like Homer, see the ice like Thornton, shoot like AO, protect the puck like Hank, backhand like Sundin, slap it like Chara, win a draw like Perrault, etc... ?

An 18 year old that thinks making a hit like that will get him on an NHL scouts shortlist is kidding himself. That's not what the CHL is about. At all.

So scouts don't look at physicality when it comes to whether they should be picked up? Sure it is only one thing, but if a player busts his ass every shift and does everything he can to help his team, then hell yes he is going to have a better chance than the guy who coasts around and attempts to do pretty s*** to get noticed.

And once again, some players don't even have a shot, so why should they let up if this may be the last competitive league they ever play in?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

No need for it. I still play, and there's no reason to finish a guy that hard, finish your check, but he tried to hurt him. Yes the kid turned, but still the fact remains, kids in the CHL are getting bigger and stronger, and you have to know whats right and wrong, I'm usually not about sportsmanship, but you dont try to hurt a guy, your trying to intimidate and get your team going. It's unfortunate, that kid will likely never play hockey again.

[cwinger 2]

As a minor hockey coach (and parent) I see this as a larger issue than just this hit. The minor hockey leagues in Canada have a mandate to crack down on checking from behind and checking to the head. These are both noble objectives. However two calls you almost never see called at any level are boarding and charging (although in this case I believe boarding was the call). The rule for charging used to be that anything more than 3 strides taken before a hit was considered charging. Somewhere this got lost in all the cracking down on head shots and checking from behind.

As Canadians, we cheered like crazy every time Jordin Tootoo or Steve Downey hit someone at the World Junior Tournament even though 90% of their hits could have been considered charging. As long as it was some Russian or Swedish kid getting pounded we were fine with it. So the next time a minor hockey player could take a run at someone and drill him into the boards we say that is just hockey and the kid that got hit has to learn to keep their head up.

I don't think it is any secret that the players are bigger, stronger and faster than they have ever been and that players like Liambas are out on the ice to intimidate and fight and to play right on the edge of the rules. It is all the more reason why charging and boarding should be cracked down on just like CFB and CTH penalties are. To look at a hit like this and say that it was a clean body check with an unfortunate outcome is to take the game of hockey down to a level that is lower than I would like to think it has to go.

As a Wings fan I have watched a team play with skill and puck control for more than a decade now without having a player of that ilk in our lineup at all. Do enforcers have a place in hockey? Sure. But to have a guy running around throwing border-line body checks, to me is playing with fire and we now have someone who really got burned. I hear people saying they hope Fanelli can get back to playing hockey again. I think if you talked to his family right now, that is likely the least of their concerns.

[Doggy 130]

So scouts don't look at physicality when it comes to whether they should be picked up? Sure it is only one thing, but if a player busts his ass every shift and does everything he can to help his team, then hell yes he is going to have a better chance than the guy who coasts around and attempts to do pretty s*** to get noticed.

And once again, some players don't even have a shot, so why should they let up if this may be the last competitive league they ever play in?

Being strong and physical is an addition to a good young players other assets.

It can be the reason you are drafted in the first round and not the third. But it's never the reason you are drafted.

D#1fan sums up my feelings for this hit. And frankly, if a guy that appreciates the physical side of the game as much as he can says that, for me that's saying a lot. Liambas was not busting his arse. He wasn't finishing his check. He wasn't skating whistle to whistle. He put someone out, probably for life. How is that helping your team? It's sure not helping yourself.

Ask Liambas now if he still thinks he should've gone that hard at Fanelli. I'll bet he disagrees with you and wishes he had've let up a little.

[CenterIce 83]

The only thing I might call on that hit could be charging, since he had full out sprint from center ice. I think the main problem was that the kid who got hit spun just before to make the pass. Mickey always mentions that you cannot put yourself in a vulnerable position and that looks like what happened here.

[j.hoop 64]

was there any retribution?

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

A. Age has nothing to do with it. If he's on the ice, he's on the ice. I don't care if his mommy signed a permission slip to get him out there.

B. He saw him coming. Brace yourself, he ain't gonna stop.

C. No elbow, he did it Kronner style by tucking his elbows down and exploding up on contact and using his forearms to "shove" the checkee into the boards.

D. Tie your helmet down correctly.

[Kronthewall55 14]

as far as elbows and such, this was a legal hard hit arms down with the follow through. as far as charging, it was debatable, since he did my move which is sprint then coast, which provides a loop hole to the 5 strides. as for boarding, it was a 5 minute major in my opinion, being his position along the boards being blindsided.

all and all, i wouldn't even blame the hitter, because the defensemen didn't take care of how he was exposed being well aware of a forthcoming hit. it was very unfortunate that the man was injured, but turning your back is the dumbest move you can do with someone barreling down the ice at you. Especially if your on the boards. the hitter was crashing the zone just like every foward in the world does, and if the kid got up it would of been a routine play with a hard hit.

the idea of these hits are to keep the defensemen worried about themselves over the puck, to force them to get rid of the puck instead of making a play, and i think its safe to say it worked a little too well.

thats hockey, keep your head up.