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#61 Four

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:59 PM

QUOTE (Hack & Whack Rule! @ November 2, 2009 - 09:55PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My first post in this thread:



An excerpt from a subsequent post of mine:




Slow down big fella! You are making guesses and assumptions, then stating them as fact. I refer to the intent to injure part. Fine, you showed the hit. You also posted this at the same time:



When you state an opinion on LGW, some are going to agree with you and some won't. We know which group I stand in. Dissenting opinions is what keeps things like this going. I think I'm right, you think you are right. One of us is wrong. As I said...if you don't want to be called out on the playground, stay inside at recess. As for this guy's history, I'll be honest and tell you I don't know s*** about him, and I also don't care. I'm talking about this hit.

And relax, I'm okay with you disagreeing with me.

Good luck to the Fanelli family.


I called it a terrible hit, and it was. What good came out of that hit? Please tell me.


O.o

#62 Hack & Whack Rule!

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:05 PM

QUOTE (Four @ November 2, 2009 - 10:59PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I called it a terrible hit, and it was. What good came out of that hit? Please tell me.


If Fanelli ever plays again, and I pray for a full recovery for him, he has probably learned a lesson here. That probably sounds cold, but it isn't meant to. This is a tough sport we watch and play. The next time something like this goes down, I'll bet he doesn't turn his back. That's the best I can come up with. Nobody said that a good hit can't have terrible consequences, and that is just what happened here.

Is it a s***ty deal for Fanelli? Yes, without a doubt.
Was there anything wrong with the hit? Nope, other than the outcome, of course.
Suspension worthy? Only if suspensions are given out for the result of "good hockey gone bad".


Uhh...you might want to duck!

#63 kook_10

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Broken 16 @ November 2, 2009 - 09:52PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That might be the only silver lining in this story. Maybe that reject will think twice before head hunting again.


Thanks for digging that stuff up ESAD.


That guy has 13pts and 357 PIM in the OHL. He also apparently played in the IHL for a stint. Is it common for players to return to juniors after playing in semi-pro leagues? It seems surprising to me that a player could move up to the IHL and come back and play with 16 year olds - especially as an enforcer type.

works every time


#64 Doc Holiday

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Broken 16 @ November 2, 2009 - 09:35PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When did I ever say that? Please quote me or shut up. Thank you.


You believe that the Konstantinov hit in the 97 finals isn't comparable because it was open ice. You didn't speak about the fact he caught his head in the hit (from my vantage point) or attempt to disagree with that point.

QUOTE (Broken 16 @ November 2, 2009 - 09:35PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I said a long time ago that I thought he lead high.


And one of my first responses was that Konstantinov looked to lead high on his hit as well. You then dismissed it saying it was completely different because it was from center.

QUOTE (Broken 16 @ November 2, 2009 - 09:35PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What exactly are you championing right now? A kid got squashed on the boards badly. Is in critical condition. His mom saw it and fainted. And all you can contribute is videos of other hits and arguments of legality.


I'm not championing anything. It is awful he got so injured, and even replied to ESAD about it. But the fact is an injury doesn't only stem from dirty hits. It comes from clean hits and plays where one of the two involved could have done something to prevent the injury. This time it was the victim of the hit who turned at the last second.

QUOTE (Broken 16 @ November 2, 2009 - 09:35PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Must suck to be that jaded.


What stake do I have here? I support neither team, nor either player. And I do not support injuries.

#65 Doggy

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE (Four @ November 2, 2009 - 09:39PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
An excellent post from another forum made by an Otter fan;


QUOTE (E_S_A_D @ November 2, 2009 - 09:45PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A post from another forum from a fan at the game:

Thanks for those posts. This is why I didn't like the hit. It's a 16 year old kid. These guys are trying to improve their game and become great hockey players. They don't need to be fighting or laying hits like this. It's the CHL, not the NHL. They can play tough, but not like this. Particularly when there are 16 year olds out there. The size difference between the average male at 20 and the average male at 16 is huge. Dangerously big, and this demonstrates that.

Furthermore, these guys are still learning and developing their hockey senses. They will make mistakes like Fanelli made. It's just incredibly sad the price he has to pay is so high. It shouldn't have to happen. If the CHL teaches its players to play tough without crossing the fine line into dirty, as well as encourages respect for your opponent it will translate to a new, better type of grit in the NHL.

I'm not saying there is no place for hitting in the game, because there most certainly is. I'm also not saying that the result of this incident was entirely Liambas fault. But the hit was unnecessary.

Let the kids play hockey. Let them learn and develop and become the Ovechkin's, Crosby's and Tavares' we love to watch now. Leave the fighting and huge hits for the mature leagues where they're (usually) fully developed and most importantly, know how to protect themselves.

Edited by Doggy, 02 November 2009 - 10:34 PM.

Rough as guts.

#66 Doc Holiday

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Doggy @ November 2, 2009 - 10:33PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for those posts. This is why I didn't like the hit. It's a 16 year old kid. These guys are trying to improve their game and become great hockey players. They don't need to be fighting or laying hits like this. It's the CHL, not the NHL. They can play tough, but not like this. Particularly when there are 16 year olds out there. The size difference between the average male at 20 and the average male at 16 is huge. Dangerously big, and this demonstrates that.

Furthermore, these guys are still learning and developing their hockey senses. They will make mistakes like Fanelli made. It's just incredibly sad the price he has to pay is so high. It shouldn't have to happen. If the CHL teaches its players to play tough without crossing the fine line into dirty, as well as encourages respect for your opponent it will translate to a new, better type of grit in the NHL.

I'm not saying there is no place for hitting in the game, because there most certainly is. I'm also not saying that the result of this incident was entirely Liambas fault. But the hit was unnecessary.

Let the kids play hockey. Let them learn and develop and become the Ovechkin's, Crosby's and Tavares' we love to watch now. Leave the fighting and huge hits for the mature leagues where they're (usually) fully developed and most importantly, know how to protect themselves.


You know not every player in the OHL moves on from there and plays more competitive hockey.

As a player, I will go for every hit I can make if I know my chances of making the NHL are slim and nil (and especially if I could have the chance to make it but need the extra oomph).

You do make a good point, but are players who probably will never play in the NHL supposed to coddle these young guys simply for development's sake?

#67 Doggy

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:23 PM

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ November 2, 2009 - 10:37PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know not every player in the OHL moves on from there and plays more competitive hockey.

As a player, I will go for every hit I can make if I know my chances of making the NHL are slim and nil (and especially if I could have the chance to make it but need the extra oomph).

You do make a good point, but are players who probably will never play in the NHL supposed to coddle these young guys simply for development's sake?

I'm looking at it from strictly the league's POV. They certainly need to make sure their players, particularly the underage ones, are well-protected.

Now from a player's POV... I'll tell you one thing with certainty. No NHL club will sign nor draft a junior player for his hitting. If they want to sign a grinder they look for experienced players in the AHL. You don't add grit from the CHL. Finishing your checks is fine, but if you wanna get drafted I suggest you concentrate on your stick-handling, positioning, shooting, face-offs, pokechecking, shot-blocking, stick-lifting, play-reading, skating, passing, conditioning, size, strength, power, vision, poise, teamwork, leadership, etc. This is the s*** junior players should be learning.

Anyone can finish a check like that guy just did. Who can poke-check like Nick, dangle like Datsyuk, deflect like Homer, see the ice like Thornton, shoot like AO, protect the puck like Hank, backhand like Sundin, slap it like Chara, win a draw like Perrault, etc... ?

An 18 year old that thinks making a hit like that will get him on an NHL scouts shortlist is kidding himself. That's not what the CHL is about. At all.
Rough as guts.

#68 Doc Holiday

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:28 PM

QUOTE (Doggy @ November 2, 2009 - 11:23PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm looking at it from strictly the league's POV. They certainly need to make sure their players, particularly the underage ones, are well-protected.

Now from a player's POV... I'll tell you one thing with certainty. No NHL club will sign nor draft a junior player for his hitting. If they want to sign a grinder they look for experienced players in the AHL. You don't add grit from the CHL. Finishing your checks is fine, but if you wanna get drafted I suggest you concentrate on your stick-handling, positioning, shooting, face-offs, pokechecking, shot-blocking, stick-lifting, play-reading, skating, passing, conditioning, size, strength, power, vision, poise, teamwork, leadership, etc. This is the s*** junior players should be learning.

Anyone can finish a check like that guy just did. Who can poke-check like Nick, dangle like Datsyuk, deflect like Homer, see the ice like Thornton, shoot like AO, protect the puck like Hank, backhand like Sundin, slap it like Chara, win a draw like Perrault, etc... ?

An 18 year old that thinks making a hit like that will get him on an NHL scouts shortlist is kidding himself. That's not what the CHL is about. At all.


So scouts don't look at physicality when it comes to whether they should be picked up? Sure it is only one thing, but if a player busts his ass every shift and does everything he can to help his team, then hell yes he is going to have a better chance than the guy who coasts around and attempts to do pretty s*** to get noticed.

And once again, some players don't even have a shot, so why should they let up if this may be the last competitive league they ever play in?

#69 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:29 PM

No need for it. I still play, and there's no reason to finish a guy that hard, finish your check, but he tried to hurt him. Yes the kid turned, but still the fact remains, kids in the CHL are getting bigger and stronger, and you have to know whats right and wrong, I'm usually not about sportsmanship, but you dont try to hurt a guy, your trying to intimidate and get your team going. It's unfortunate, that kid will likely never play hockey again.

#NOMOREKINDL


#70 cwinger

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:30 PM

As a minor hockey coach (and parent) I see this as a larger issue than just this hit. The minor hockey leagues in Canada have a mandate to crack down on checking from behind and checking to the head. These are both noble objectives. However two calls you almost never see called at any level are boarding and charging (although in this case I believe boarding was the call). The rule for charging used to be that anything more than 3 strides taken before a hit was considered charging. Somewhere this got lost in all the cracking down on head shots and checking from behind.

As Canadians, we cheered like crazy every time Jordin Tootoo or Steve Downey hit someone at the World Junior Tournament even though 90% of their hits could have been considered charging. As long as it was some Russian or Swedish kid getting pounded we were fine with it. So the next time a minor hockey player could take a run at someone and drill him into the boards we say that is just hockey and the kid that got hit has to learn to keep their head up.

I don't think it is any secret that the players are bigger, stronger and faster than they have ever been and that players like Liambas are out on the ice to intimidate and fight and to play right on the edge of the rules. It is all the more reason why charging and boarding should be cracked down on just like CFB and CTH penalties are. To look at a hit like this and say that it was a clean body check with an unfortunate outcome is to take the game of hockey down to a level that is lower than I would like to think it has to go.

As a Wings fan I have watched a team play with skill and puck control for more than a decade now without having a player of that ilk in our lineup at all. Do enforcers have a place in hockey? Sure. But to have a guy running around throwing border-line body checks, to me is playing with fire and we now have someone who really got burned. I hear people saying they hope Fanelli can get back to playing hockey again. I think if you talked to his family right now, that is likely the least of their concerns.

#71 Doggy

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:39 PM

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ November 2, 2009 - 11:28PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So scouts don't look at physicality when it comes to whether they should be picked up? Sure it is only one thing, but if a player busts his ass every shift and does everything he can to help his team, then hell yes he is going to have a better chance than the guy who coasts around and attempts to do pretty s*** to get noticed.

And once again, some players don't even have a shot, so why should they let up if this may be the last competitive league they ever play in?

Being strong and physical is an addition to a good young players other assets.

It can be the reason you are drafted in the first round and not the third. But it's never the reason you are drafted.

D#1fan sums up my feelings for this hit. And frankly, if a guy that appreciates the physical side of the game as much as he can says that, for me that's saying a lot. Liambas was not busting his arse. He wasn't finishing his check. He wasn't skating whistle to whistle. He put someone out, probably for life. How is that helping your team? It's sure not helping yourself.

Ask Liambas now if he still thinks he should've gone that hard at Fanelli. I'll bet he disagrees with you and wishes he had've let up a little.
Rough as guts.

#72 CenterIce

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:55 PM

The only thing I might call on that hit could be charging, since he had full out sprint from center ice. I think the main problem was that the kid who got hit spun just before to make the pass. Mickey always mentions that you cannot put yourself in a vulnerable position and that looks like what happened here.

#73 j.hoop

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 12:23 AM

was there any retribution?
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This just in, Stevie gives Canada the Order of Yzerman. Country bows and feels unworthy.


#74 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:31 AM

A. Age has nothing to do with it. If he's on the ice, he's on the ice. I don't care if his mommy signed a permission slip to get him out there.

B. He saw him coming. Brace yourself, he ain't gonna stop.

C. No elbow, he did it Kronner style by tucking his elbows down and exploding up on contact and using his forearms to "shove" the checkee into the boards.

D. Tie your helmet down correctly.

"I think a tough team, a team that sticks together, is a lot better than leaving the onus on one guy to take care of business." - Brendan Shanahan

 

It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#75 Kronthewall55

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:41 AM

as far as elbows and such, this was a legal hard hit arms down with the follow through. as far as charging, it was debatable, since he did my move which is sprint then coast, which provides a loop hole to the 5 strides. as for boarding, it was a 5 minute major in my opinion, being his position along the boards being blindsided.

all and all, i wouldn't even blame the hitter, because the defensemen didn't take care of how he was exposed being well aware of a forthcoming hit. it was very unfortunate that the man was injured, but turning your back is the dumbest move you can do with someone barreling down the ice at you. Especially if your on the boards. the hitter was crashing the zone just like every foward in the world does, and if the kid got up it would of been a routine play with a hard hit.

the idea of these hits are to keep the defensemen worried about themselves over the puck, to force them to get rid of the puck instead of making a play, and i think its safe to say it worked a little too well.

thats hockey, keep your head up.

#76 blankrap

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:49 AM

The guy that hit him was suspended from the OHL...
Here is a link and some of CBCs coverage of it...

CLICK HERE

Also at the bottom there is a debate on whether or not he should have been suspended or not.

#77 seeinred

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 05:04 AM

Threads like this are proof that there's never going to be a perfect, enforceable standard for dirty hits in hockey.

And FWIW, I feel sorry for the kid, but that's why you NEVER turn your back on a hit.

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#78 dat's sick

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 05:49 AM

The kid should have protected himself better, but that was a careless hit no matter which way you look at it.

#79 Doggy

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 08:44 AM

QUOTE (Kronthewall55 @ November 3, 2009 - 01:41AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
thats hockey, keep your head up.

That's easy to say on a message board. But when you see the family of a teen who is fighting for his life, you learn that this really has nothing to do with hockey.

Getting on 5 years ago, I watched my best friends' mother cry at his funeral and it changed me.
Rough as guts.

#80 Doc Holiday

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 08:55 AM

QUOTE (Doggy @ November 2, 2009 - 11:39PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Being strong and physical is an addition to a good young players other assets.

It can be the reason you are drafted in the first round and not the third. But it's never the reason you are drafted.

D#1fan sums up my feelings for this hit. And frankly, if a guy that appreciates the physical side of the game as much as he can says that, for me that's saying a lot. Liambas was not busting his arse. He wasn't finishing his check. He wasn't skating whistle to whistle. He put someone out, probably for life. How is that helping your team? It's sure not helping yourself.

Ask Liambas now if he still thinks he should've gone that hard at Fanelli. I'll bet he disagrees with you and wishes he had've let up a little.


Sure he does, but not because he did something wrong.

It's because he made a hit that ended up with arguably the worst result. If the kid didn't turn his back last second he might have been perfectly fine and it would have been a highlight reel OHL hit. Would people still be getting angry at his hit?





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