Rivalred 630 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 Something needs to be done somewhere... Our top guys have seem to dry up offensively... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russianswede919293 95 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 Goaltending is an issue... Yes Ozzie played well in the last 3 games, but Chris Osgood is not at the age where he should be playing 4 games in a row unless its playoff time. Last season there is NO WAY that Conklin would not have played last night's game. That being said...I expected Howard to play until I turned the TV on and saw Ozzie in net. At that point I realized how little confidence the team has in Howard. The Wings need a solid back up they can rely on to play 25-30 games a year. So far Ozzie has played 12 of 15 games... Howard has started 3 games. That puts it on pace to be 16 starts for Howard. I know its early but are you really confident in Howard to play more down the stretch right now. A guy like Biron would put us in an identical goaltending situation as we were last season with Conklin. Now the only issue here is what they could do to fit him in Cap Wise when the whole team is healthy since Biron makes .700 mil more then Howard does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russianswede919293 95 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 The reason they let Conklin go was because of money and the fact that Howard passed his last year of waiver exemption. So it's either sign Conklin and lose Howard for nothing or give Howard a chance as a backup (after many years of attempting to groom him into a STARTING GOALTENDER) and let Conklin walk. Had nothing to do with Holland thinking Howard was a better goalie. It also had to do with the 600k that it gave Holland to sign another offensive player. At the time Detroit had about 4 million dollars under cap to sign 3 forwards and with Conklin it would have been about 3 million dollars to still sign 3 forwards... It was cap induced departure only. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holiday 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 It also had to do with the 600k that it gave Holland to sign another offensive player. At the time Detroit had about 4 million dollars under cap to sign 3 forwards and with Conklin it would have been about 3 million dollars to still sign 3 forwards... It was cap induced departure only. Thanks, I forgot to mention that fact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 Right but the point is this carmen kid is claiming that management knew in advance that Howard was a failure, because he had ~200 games not to impress anyone. If this theory is true, why give him a chance? Teams groom players all the time to find that they're a bust. Carmen is basically saying Howard was a bust before he got here... yet Holland let Conklin go. As for money, like I pointed out in my previous post, Holland could have given Conklin Jason William's money and signed another cheap Eaves type player to plug the forward position. Look at Carmen's theory. Carmen makes it sound like he/she had some kind of special inside info that not even Holland knew.... I'm calling bulls***. Wings lost 144 goals and 314 points and we're talking about spending limited cap money on a backup who might play 30 games? Woah woah, there you go putting words into my mouth. I haven't called Howard a failure once. Just because I'd trade a unproven backup for a proven backup doesn't mean I think Howard should quit. They gave him the chance, because we did not have the salary room IN THE OFF SEASON. Holland didn't let Conklin go, he couldn't afford him at the time. Btw, I'd rather see them do something rather then just sit tight until next season. Who do you plan on getting with that extra salary? Satan? The guy who ended up a healthy scratch on practically every team he's been on? At least I'm coming up with an idea that I'd think would work. That's what a fan forum is for, sharing idea's and getting other people's perspective. Then again me responding so much to you in this thread makes me sound like I gave up on Howard. Let me reinforce it one more time, I'd only offer Howard up for a proven back up that is it. I'm not calling him a bust, if I wanted to call him a bust I'd be saying waive him, or trade him for picks... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking_Erection 1 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Woah woah, there you go putting words into my mouth. I haven't called Howard a failure once. Just because I'd trade a unproven backup for a proven backup doesn't mean I think Howard should quit. They gave him the chance, because we did not have the salary room IN THE OFF SEASON. Holland didn't let Conklin go, he couldn't afford him at the time. Btw, I'd rather see them do something rather then just sit tight until next season. Who do you plan on getting with that extra salary? Satan? The guy who ended up a healthy scratch on practically every team he's been on? At least I'm coming up with an idea that I'd think would work. That's what a fan forum is for, sharing idea's and getting other people's perspective. Then again me responding so much to you in this thread makes me sound like I gave up on Howard. Let me reinforce it one more time, I'd only offer Howard up for a proven back up that is it. I'm not calling him a bust, if I wanted to call him a bust I'd be saying waive him, or trade him for picks... If Biron can score 20+ goals, has the ability to carry the puck into the zone and help the PP out with Fraznen, Williams and Flip injuries, then I am all for it! As per the money issues, *IF* Holland thought Howard was going to be the risk you think he is, he could have NOT signed Williams, and found an Eaves type player making $500k to keep Conklin... *IF* Holland thought Jimmy was hopeless -- Which apparently he thinks Jimmy is a good enough backup, which you refuse to see. Hell, Brendan Shanahan is available. But you seem to be hung up on this notion that Holland could not have signed Conklin no matter what. Where do you get your information from? Holland wanted Howard to backup the goalie position for two reason 1) because his time in the AHL was over 2) use the money on a forward to help the PP -- BUT THE FORWARD HE SIGNED TO QUARTER BACK IS GONE, ALONG WITH OUR 2ND LINE CENTER AND FRANZEN, but you want a backup goalie? Lol. If Holland had known what you obvoulsy know, then why did he even bother with Howard? Where do you get your inside information that not even Holland knows? Howard has started in what 3 or 4 games??? Why do you keep dodging my questions? Do you realize that you were dense and don't want to face the facts? Wings LOST 144 goals and 314 points. How does Biron help with that? Do you really think the Wings can win every game 1-0 all the way to the playoffs? Not even Biron can finish the season with a 0.00 GAA under this defense. *IF* Biron can have an unbelievable record of 1.25 GAA, Wings still lose if they can only score 1 goal. Your ideas that you THINK will work suck! Get over it. Wings need to put the puck in net not get a backup that will play 30 games who will still allow more than 1 goal per game on average. Edited November 8, 2009 by Viking_Erection Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 Wing's are 15th in GF, and 23rd in GA. PP is 15th, PK is 26th. Defense wins championships. Stuart will be fine to quarterback the 2nd PP, he's done it before atleast give him a shot before you start raging at not signing another PP forward to use on the 2nd PP. You think my idea sucks. I think it doesn't. Agree to disagree with my point. Don't start insulting when you realize not everyone agrees with you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russianswede919293 95 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 If Biron can score 20+ goals, has the ability to carry the puck into the zone and help the PP out with Fraznen, Williams and Flip injuries, then I am all for it! As per the money issues, *IF* Holland thought Howard was going to be the risk you think he is, he could have NOT signed Williams, and found an Eaves type player making $500k to keep Conklin... *IF* Holland thought Jimmy was hopeless -- Which apparently he thinks Jimmy is a good enough backup, which you refuse to see. Hell, Brendan Shanahan is available. But you seem to be hung up on this notion that Holland could not have signed Conklin no matter what. Where do you get your information from? Holland wanted Howard to backup the goalie position for two reason 1) because his time in the AHL was over 2) use the money on a forward to help the PP -- BUT THE FORWARD HE SIGNED TO QUARTER BACK IS GONE, ALONG WITH OUR 2ND LINE CENTER AND FRANZEN, but you want a backup goalie? Lol. If Holland had known what you obvoulsy know, then why did he even bother with Howard? Where do you get your inside information that not even Holland knows? Howard has started in what 3 or 4 games??? Why do you keep dodging my questions? Do you realize that you were dense and don't want to face the facts? Wings LOST 144 goals and 314 points. How does Biron help with that? Do you really think the Wings can win every game 1-0 all the way to the playoffs? Not even Biron can finish the season with a 0.00 GAA under this defense. *IF* Biron can have an unbelievable record of 1.25 GAA, Wings still lose if they can only score 1 goal. Your ideas that you THINK will work suck! Get over it. Wings need to put the puck in net not get a backup that will play 30 games who will still allow more than 1 goal per game on average. They also need a back-up goalie... If you think Chris Osgood can continue to play this many games all season I believe you are mistaken. Ozzie is a 55 GP a year goalie so he can play the playoffs like he does. Jimmy Howard is not being given the playing time to allow Ozzie that rest. This is because the same Jekyl and Hyde performance that mae Dan Larsson the starter in Grand Rapids for part of the year, is still there for Jimmy Howard. Jimmy Howard was being groomed to be the next Wings starter...inconcsistency issues plagued him and left him in Grand Rapids until he was 25. Those same inconsistency issues are apparent now. Howard has shown he can be good, but on a team like the red wings where fans eat goalies for every meal of the day, this isn't where that talent is going to emerge... An extra scorer will not give Ozzie more rest...so yes they do still need a back-up goalie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking_Erection 1 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 They also need a back-up goalie... If you think Chris Osgood can continue to play this many games all season I believe you are mistaken. Ozzie is a 55 GP a year goalie so he can play the playoffs like he does. Jimmy Howard is not being given the playing time to allow Ozzie that rest. This is because the same Jekyl and Hyde performance that mae Dan Larsson the starter in Grand Rapids for part of the year, is still there for Jimmy Howard. Jimmy Howard was being groomed to be the next Wings starter...inconcsistency issues plagued him and left him in Grand Rapids until he was 25. Those same inconsistency issues are apparent now. Howard has shown he can be good, but on a team like the red wings where fans eat goalies for every meal of the day, this isn't where that talent is going to emerge... An extra scorer will not give Ozzie more rest...so yes they do still need a back-up goalie. Babcock is known to play the hot hand in net. The Wizard of Oz has been hot. Last game, not so much... though the entire team sucked. Look at Howard to get the start either next game or the game after. If Howard outplays Osgood, look for him to start until he fawks up. Same goes with Osgood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CenterIce 83 Report post Posted November 8, 2009 Biron may end up going to Carolina, now. That is with Ward being out 4 weeks or more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 Lebda and Howard for Biron, please. Please? Come on, I asked nicely. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CdnWingsFanEh 2 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) If Biron can score 20+ goals, has the ability to carry the puck into the zone and help the PP out with Fraznen, Williams and Flip injuries, then I am all for it! As per the money issues, *IF* Holland thought Howard was going to be the risk you think he is, he could have NOT signed Williams, and found an Eaves type player making $500k to keep Conklin... *IF* Holland thought Jimmy was hopeless -- Which apparently he thinks Jimmy is a good enough backup, which you refuse to see. Hell, Brendan Shanahan is available. But you seem to be hung up on this notion that Holland could not have signed Conklin no matter what. Where do you get your information from? Holland wanted Howard to backup the goalie position for two reason 1) because his time in the AHL was over 2) use the money on a forward to help the PP -- BUT THE FORWARD HE SIGNED TO QUARTER BACK IS GONE, ALONG WITH OUR 2ND LINE CENTER AND FRANZEN, but you want a backup goalie? Lol. If Holland had known what you obvoulsy know, then why did he even bother with Howard? Where do you get your inside information that not even Holland knows? Howard has started in what 3 or 4 games??? Why do you keep dodging my questions? Do you realize that you were dense and don't want to face the facts? Wings LOST 144 goals and 314 points. How does Biron help with that? Do you really think the Wings can win every game 1-0 all the way to the playoffs? Not even Biron can finish the season with a 0.00 GAA under this defense. *IF* Biron can have an unbelievable record of 1.25 GAA, Wings still lose if they can only score 1 goal. Your ideas that you THINK will work suck! Get over it. Wings need to put the puck in net not get a backup that will play 30 games who will still allow more than 1 goal per game on average. I think if Holland could have kept Conklin he would have. Conklin is an improvement over Howard. Holland knew that, but his hands were tied. Not only did the wings lose forwards that they had to replace, but they lost a huge number of goals with those forwards. They kind of got screwed with the Hudler issue. It would have been irresponsible to have gone after another Eaves type player making $500k but at the same time losing a larger number of goals. He had to make up some of those points somehow. He must have felt that the Wings scoring woes would be a bigger problem than poor backup goaltending. Who knew? In retrospect what could they have done. Howard was out of options, as well in the AHL. He basically got the shot by default. I don't think this was Holland's first choice of how things would play out. Yes, goaltending is a big issue right now. But the question is what's a bigger issue goaltending or the team plagued by injuries? Difficult call. Obviously, as there is such a big debate on it... Edit (sp) Edited November 9, 2009 by CdnWingsFanEh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking_Erection 1 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) I think if Holland could have kept Conklin he would have. Conklin is an improvement over Howard. Holland knew that, but his hands were tied. Not only did the wings lose forwards that they had to replace, but they lost a huge number of goals with those forwards. They kind of got screwed with the Hudler issue. It would have been irresponsible to have gone after another Eaves type player making $500k but at the same time losing a larger number of goals. He had to make up some of those points somehow. He must have felt that the Wings scoring woes would be a bigger problem than poor backup goaltending. Who knew? In retrospect what could they have done. Howard was out of options, as well in the AHL. He basically got the shot by default. I don't think this was Holland's first choice of how things would play out. Yes, goaltending is a big issue right now. But the question is what's a bigger issue goaltending or the team plagued by injuries? Difficult call. Obviously, as there is such a big debate on it... Edit (sp) Again, more misconceptions. Look at this... it's really not that hard, folks. (If Holland didn't want to give Howard a chance) $1.5 million Williams salary / $1.4 million Conklin's salar = WASH! $700,000 Howard's salary / $500k - $700k Eaves type player = WASH! There you go, Williams salary can wash out for CONKLIN. Had Holland wanted to do that. He didn't. Why? Not like Carman suggests, because Carmen suggests that Holland new Howard was a short-term failure. Howard had 3 STARTS for crying out loud. He didn't get more starts because OSGOOD has been the hot hand. Babcock plays the HOT HAND. Again, Williams/Conklin salary = WASH! --- Holland could have found a $700,000 Eaves type contract to plug on Williams open roster spot. Simple math folks. Edited November 9, 2009 by Viking_Erection Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CenterIce 83 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 During a Wings' game, earlier in the season, Ken Daniels and Mickey Redmond had mentioned that Holland had told them the reason they went toward Howard was because they needed to find a young long-term solution in net. They mentioned how Holland talked about Conklin and Ozzie's ages at the end of Ozzie's current contract. They said Holland wanted to see what kind of talent he had in the organization. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russianswede919293 95 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 Again, more misconceptions. Look at this... it's really not that hard, folks. (If Holland didn't want to give Howard a chance) $1.5 million Williams salary / $1.4 million Conklin's salar = WASH! $700,000 Howard's salary / $500k - $700k Eaves type player = WASH! There you go, Williams salary can wash out for CONKLIN. Had Holland wanted to do that. He didn't. Why? Not like Carman suggests, because Carmen suggests that Holland new Howard was a short-term failure. Howard had 3 STARTS for crying out loud. He didn't get more starts because OSGOOD has been the hot hand. Babcock plays the HOT HAND. Again, Williams/Conklin salary = WASH! --- Holland could have found a $700,000 Eaves type contract to plug on Williams open roster spot. Simple math folks. How many good players full of potential that had injury problems and were bought out and are already being paid by the bruins so is willing to take a one year deal to try to re-establish themselves in the league... There aren't very many... You would be hard pressed to find another player as good as Eaves, with as much potential as Eaves, for the same price as Eaves... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z Winged Dangler 2,082 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 We already had one. He's in St. Louis right now making $1.4 million. Rumor has it, in a salary cap era, teams are required to manage money differently than before -- therefore, relying on young talent to pick up some slack. In addition to the salary cap rumor, it was time to give Howard his fair shot in the NHL level. Guess he's only allowed to have 4 games to prove himself behind a team that doesn't feel like playing defense. Apparently, the solution on LGWs is giving up the kid who had 4 tries for a goalie that consistently gets a shutout every game, well since this team can only score 1 goal a game. Does that sound overly dramatic? Of course it does... because it is. Helm hasn't scored a goal in awhile, maybe Wings should give up on him. Why would we need logic on LGW? Just knee-jerk reactions on here, baby. does the defence decide when or if howard closes his 5 hole? i expected a lot more from howard than the play he's shown, but then again look at his competition...ozzie plays good maybe half the time. i'll give the wings 10 more games before decide whether or not to write this season off, which unfortunately will not end in taylor hall. he unfortunatel will be a hurricane next season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lidstrom for Norris 0 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 How about this. Howard/Lebda/random pick for Biron/Sutton :hat: That sounds reasonable. Sutton is on the Isles top shut down pairing with Brenden Witt though, so they will probably ask for a higher or multiple draft picks to go with Howard rather than Lebda/Meech Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking_Erection 1 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 How many good players full of potential that had injury problems and were bought out and are already being paid by the bruins so is willing to take a one year deal to try to re-establish themselves in the league... There aren't very many... You would be hard pressed to find another player as good as Eaves, with as much potential as Eaves, for the same price as Eaves... :facepalm: That was not, even the slightest, the point of my post at all. That's an entirely different thread, point, conversation, argument from the backup-goalie/financial/cap-space of my previous point. However, my point has been proven and you, nor anyone else, can argue it. Holland could have, in fact, resigned Conklin if he felt it was needed. Meech/Shanny/players-name-here could have filled the $700k spot on the roster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russianswede919293 95 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) :facepalm: That was not, even the slightest, the point of my post at all. That's an entirely different thread, point, conversation, argument from the backup-goalie/financial/cap-space of my previous point. However, my point has been proven and you, nor anyone else, can argue it. Holland could have, in fact, resigned Conklin if he felt it was needed. Meech/Shanny/players-name-here could have filled the $700k spot on the roster. Meech is a defenceman...and Shanny signed a $1 Million contract... Also at the time Hudler was still considered a Red Wings plan of action since Conklin signed in St. Louis on July 1st, and Hudler left the Wings on July 10th, so Hudler was going to sign for what the Wings thought would be at least 2.5 million of the 4 million remaining and they still needed two more forwards for 1.5 million dollars...so in your books 2 Patrick Eaves type players... Which would have been 0.7 million dollars for 2 forwards if they had Conklins contract of 1.3 million and not Howards 0.7 million... That being said at the time of Conklin's departure the Wings thought they needed 2 players for 1.5 million dollars... When Hudler left that changed...so yes at the time that Conklin was let go the decision was very much motivated by money. IF the Red Wings could have financially been able to I don't doubt for one second that Conklin would have stayed... If need be I expect them to go with a guy like Biron as back-up because the hope was for Howard to take a step forward, which to me he hasn't done. So don't think that Howard is here solely because of his talent and the Wings faith in him...its mostly because of money, and somewhat for a hope of reaching his potential...if he fails to do so soon he will be replaced. Edited November 9, 2009 by russianswede919293 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 However, my point has been proven and you, nor anyone else, can argue it. Holland could have, in fact, resigned Conklin if he felt it was needed. Meech/Shanny/players-name-here could have filled the $700k spot on the roster. Then what would he do waive Howard for nothing? Howard had no options this year it's NHL or bust. Obviously, Holland isn't going to choose to lose a player for nothing(Quincey), especially with the potential that Howard has. Howard has value still. To say your point can't be argued is hilarious to me, your like a little kid that thinks Batman could beat up Superman and refuses to think otherwise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russianswede919293 95 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 Then what would he do waive Howard for nothing? Howard had no options this year it's NHL or bust. Obviously, Holland isn't going to choose to lose a player for nothing(Quincey), especially with the potential that Howard has. Howard has value still. To say your point can't be argued is hilarious to me, your like a little kid that thinks Batman could beat up Superman and refuses to think otherwise. See my above post Carman... that Howard was hoped to reach potential and with Hudler still in plans at the time it was 100% money...Howard was the best financial option with the most upside at the time... That may have changed now... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking_Erection 1 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 Meech is a defenceman... That's where I stopped reading. Meech playes BOTH positions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Meech Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking_Erection 1 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) Then what would he do waive Howard for nothing? Howard had no options this year it's NHL or bust. Obviously, Holland isn't going to choose to lose a player for nothing(Quincey), especially with the potential that Howard has. Howard has value still. To say your point can't be argued is hilarious to me, your like a little kid that thinks Batman could beat up Superman and refuses to think otherwise. Lol. You're spinning is making me dizzy. "Howard isn't backup material", "Wings need a real backup", "Howard has value", "Howard had to play because he was out of options", "Howard isn't ready for the big league", "Holland isn't going to choose to lose a player for nothing". LMAO!!! -- btw, what did Holland get for Quincey? Please refresh my memory. So Howard isn't good enough to backup yet he has trade value, but isn't good enough in the NHL but has to play on the Red Wings because he was out of options? Wow, you are really are a back peddler. Howard was "good enough" for Holland to sign, but now that he has started a whopping three games behind a lazy and rusted Red Wings team, he's no longer backup material. Me thinks you forgot what your argument truly is. Keep spinning! Edited November 9, 2009 by Viking_Erection Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 Lol. You're spinning is making me dizzy. "Howard isn't backup material", "Wings need a real backup", "Howard has value", "Howard had to play because he was out of options", "Howard isn't ready for the big league", "Holland isn't going to choose to lose a player for nothing". LMAO!!! -- btw, what did Holland get for Quincey? Please refresh my memory. So Howard isn't good enough to backup yet he has trade value, but isn't good enough in the NHL but has to play on the Red Wings because he was out of options? Wow, you are really are a back peddler. Howard was "good enough" for Holland to sign, but now that he has started a whopping three games behind a lazy and rusted Red Wings team, he's no longer backup material. Me thinks you forgot what your argument truly is. Keep spinning! Howard was signed in 08' not last off season, and I've never said that Howard wasn't ready. Holland lost Quincey for nothing, and what I meant was he isn't going to make the same mistake by choosing to waive a player like Howard. Howard isn't at the level of Biron yet, and it is uncertain whether or not he actually reaches his potential. He has trade value because of what he might be, not what he is. Howard signed in 08' when he was still in development and thought to be the next Red Wing starting goalie. Now he is struggling to even relieve Osgood a couple games a month. Therefore, if we could secure a proven goaltender for Howard I'm all for it, that's all I'm saying. I'm not "back peddling" or "spinning". You're just losing me for some reasons on your end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russianswede919293 95 Report post Posted November 9, 2009 Howard was signed in 08' not last off season, and I've never said that Howard wasn't ready. Holland lost Quincey for nothing, and what I meant was he isn't going to make the same mistake by choosing to waive a player like Howard. Howard isn't at the level of Biron yet, and it is uncertain whether or not he actually reaches his potential. He has trade value because of what he might be, not what he is. Howard signed in 08' when he was still in development and thought to be the next Red Wing starting goalie. Now he is struggling to even relieve Osgood a couple games a month. Therefore, if we could secure a proven goaltender for Howard I'm all for it, that's all I'm saying. I'm not "back peddling" or "spinning". You're just losing me for some reasons on your end. ^ Agreed AND i do not want to dig it up but at the start of last season I believe Holland said they wanted to focus on moving Meech exclusively to defense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
