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Echolalia

Jimmy Howard watch thread

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Guest CaliWingsNut

This thread is funny. LGW goes from belittling to comparing to Brodeur in under a season.

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Heading into the Olympic break, Jimmy is currently riding 5th in save percentage league-wide, and 6th in goals against league-wide. He has played in 43 games and started in 41 of those. In terms of rookie goaltenders, only Tuuka Rask of the Bruins has a comparable s% and GAA, however he has played 14 fewer games than Jimmy has.

Duchene leads all rookies with 42 points (20g 22a) and is a -1. Tavares is second with 34 points (17g 17a) and a -18. Tyler Myers, a defensman, is 4th in rookie scoring with 32 points (8g 24a) and is a +5.

Overall Howard is definitely a strong Calder candidate at this point in the season. What really may help his odds is that a good argument can be made that Howard has been a larger impact to his team than any other rookie player.

Hopefully he gets to relax a bit over this Olympic break, and he comes back refreshed and ready to ride this season out.

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Guest zackmorris

Howard has to be the Calder favorite. Anyone with a slight clue as to what he's meant to us would give it to him without thinking twice. He's been our savior for enough games to put him above Rask, who while playing good, hasn't been the game saver Howard has been. No scorers this year are running away with it, either. Myers is good but he's still slightly suspect in his own end. I don't care about that plus 5, he's still looking confused now and again. Same with Duchene. He's decent offensively but someone has to score in Colorado and he's a huge defensive liability. They're just not as valuable to their teams as Howard is to us.

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Guest Lidstromboli
I don't care about that plus 5, he's still looking confused now and again.

howard on the other hand, doesn't give up a handful of juicy rebounds a game where he can't see the puck and just flops around

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howard on the other hand, doesn't give up a handful of juicy rebounds a game where he can't see the puck and just flops around

And? Howard's stats tell the entire story there-- he gets the job done very well. Myers only has his +/- and anecdotal evidence to support his argument.

I could give two s***s if Howard gives up huge rebounds when he's consistently a dominant force night in and night out.

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Howard has to be the Calder favorite. Anyone with a slight clue as to what he's meant to us would give it to him without thinking twice. He's been our savior for enough games to put him above Rask, who while playing good, hasn't been the game saver Howard has been. No scorers this year are running away with it, either. Myers is good but he's still slightly suspect in his own end. I don't care about that plus 5, he's still looking confused now and again. Same with Duchene. He's decent offensively but someone has to score in Colorado and he's a huge defensive liability. They're just not as valuable to their teams as Howard is to us.

Yea I have a hard time seeing how they could give it to anyone other than Howard...Colorado's revival has been a nice story and Duchene is turning into a hell of a player but between the uprising of Craig Anderson and the plethora of other young guys helping out (Yip, O'Reilly namely) it's certainly not Duchene doing it all by himself...It should be Howard's to lose in my opinion, hopefully the powers that be see it the same way.

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Guest zackmorris

The whole rebound thing about Howard was stupid and overblown from day one. Not only are rebounds a ridiculously overrated stat, but he's not even that bad at it. It was just started by some schmuck who needed something to rag on Howard over, and anyone who wanted to join in agreed.

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Its too easy to dismiss opinions that differ from your own as player favoritism or being a homer. Less thought needed that way.

No really, those number are greatly exaggerated and your posts as well as Outsiders speak for themselves w/ regards to Howard and Ozzie.

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Hello ad hom.

Really? Calling out the 18 shots a game that Howard supposedly give up in rebounds as bulls*** is unreasonable? How is it a personal attack when the record is clear where this poster comes from and the bias he brings? You need to check some defs before you post latin my friend as I doubt it is your first language.

Edited by clutchngrab

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Really? Calling out the 18 shots a game that Howard supposedly give up in rebounds as bulls*** is unreasonable? How is it a personal attack when the record is clear where this poster comes from and the bias he brings? You need to check some defs before you post latin my friend as I doubt it is your first language.

Using his "Osgood blinders" as a rebut is an ad hom whether you like it or not.

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Too true. At the end of the day, the only stats that matters is W-L-OTL and he has not been able to win the Wings those 50-50 games. His save percentage is great, but watch his rebound control and how fast the shots on goal accumulate as he squirts out rebound after rebound. In the games where he is upwards of 40 shots (unheard of for the Wings) he usually sees 4-5 in the span of a few seconds because he bobbles it outside the crease and the opposition bangs at it 3-4 more times before he finally squashes it or it goes in.

Howard has been very lucky with most of the rebounds he's let out this season, last night there were 5 or 6 instances where the rebound was in a perfect position for the opposition to score in an empty net and it either went between a Blue's skates or was checked off by a defenseman.

Howard has been good, but I think his lack of rebound control is a huge issue, which attributes to his grossly inflated SOG totals and helps boost his SV%, while at the same time the Wings are still unable to win even the games they should. Not to mention in the shootout he is absolutely horrible.

Thanks to Babcock essentially retiring Osgood prematurely this season, all we can do is speculate as to the position of the team if we had two goaltenders. Say what you want about Osgood, he has always known how to win, even in his stint away from Detroit. It hasn't always been pretty, but Osgood knows how to slow down a game and get a stable faceoff in the situations that Howard kicks out rebound after rebound, at best keeping the puck in the attacking zone with no chance for a Wings line change and at worst giving up soft rebound goals.

Shouldn't giving up good scoring chance rebounds actually hurt his SV% by giving higher percentage opps to the opponents? He is what he is a great rookie Goalie on a team trying to find its identity....

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Using his "Osgood blinders" as a rebut is an ad hom whether you like it or not.

I'm simply stating the 18 additional shots per game that Howard supposedly gives up is an outlandish claim and is based upon a clear historical record of bias towards Osgood over Howard. How is this an "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person"? Whatever... I guess we can disagree on what an Ad Hominem is as well as goaltending.

Edited by clutchngrab

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Why should his thread even exist any longer at this point in the season? Howard has far exceeded expectations, and it's way too risky at this point into the season (given the current playoff situation) to take a chance on any kind of "Osgood experiment".

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I'm simply stating the 18 additional shots per game that Howard supposedly gives up is an outlandish claim and is based upon a clear historical record of bias towards Osgood over Howard. How is this an "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person"? Whatever... I guess we can disagree on what an Ad Hominem is as well as goaltending.

:rolleyes:

You said his blinders skew his numbers, which is using his "bias" as the sole reason you are knocking down his argument.

Person 1 makes claim X (Outsider says that there are x shots extra faced on Howard because of his poor rebound control)

There is something objectionable about Person 1 (He is a "homer")

Therefore claim X is false (You say that his numbers are skewed)

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Yeah but if it were Eva you would be making fun of his made up stats, correct?

But because his made up stat supports your argument you are arguing based on the fact it supports your point not that it is in any way factual, correct?

Otherwise please show me where you were able to find the SPARC otherwise known as save percentage accounting for rebound control.

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Yeah but if it were Eva you would be making fun of his made up stats, correct?

But because his made up stat supports your argument you are arguing based on the fact it supports your point not that it is in any way factual, correct?

Otherwise please show me where you were able to find the SPARC otherwise known as save percentage accounting for rebound control.

I never said Outsiders stats were factual.

I never have once made fun of Eva for his statistics, only made a light-hearted jab at his love for Hudler.

All I said is that clutchngrab was using an ad hom attack. "You are homer so you are skewing the numbers" is ridiculous. If he had simply said "you are pulling those out of your ass" I would have not even bothered to press the reply button. But using someone's "homerism" as the sole reason to attack a premise is plain silly.

Also I don't think the rebound control problem is a huge problem, but I do think he needs to work on it. I also have stated numerous times that Howard earned the #1 spot and that I have no problem seeing him with the majority of the starts from here on out.

Happy?

Edited by Doc Holliday

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I'd say that's a pretty fair estimate.

Two extra shots per goal mouth scramble, two goal mouth scrambles per period, plus the one or two he routinely kicks out to the slot every period.

That puts my count at 6 extra, totally unnecessary, shots per period due to nothing more, nor less, than poor rebound control.

Three periods per Game? That totals out to 18 shots per Game that could conceivably be directly attributed to rebounds.

Perhaps YOU need to take off the "Wow! Look how many shots he faces! Our Defense SUCKS!" T-shirt, and start to realize that it's not the Defense that's leaving Howie out to dry. It's Howie making the Defense work twice as hard as they have to.

Man this is retarded logic.

You think Howard's sv% is inflated by rebound control. Ok. Compared to whom? The rest of the league? Do you have a stat that shows me Howard's rebound control is poorer than the norm? Is it much worse? Quantify it. It's easy to quantify the impact a goalie has on their team. Let me show you:

Jimmy Howard:

0.927 Sv% (5th in NHL, 2nd in the West)

2.28 GAA (6th in NHL, 2nd in the West)

Chris Osgood:

0.891 Sv% (43rd in NHL, LAST in the West)

2.94 GAA (36th in NHL, 4th last in the West)

Detroit Red Wings:

15th in the league by points

21st in wins

22nd in goals scored per game

-5 goal differential

10th in place in Western standings

Jimmy's literally keeping this team afloat. Osgood, while brilliant in the playoffs last year, s*** the bed again this season. We can't afford to give him 40 games to warm up to playing NHL quality goaltending. Sorry Ozzy. I want you to get to 400 wins and then some but this season isn't the time to gamble on a goalie who can't stop pucks right now.

Back to your assertions...

Go ahead. Say he's a bad rebounder. Guess what? He's frigging awesome at every thing else. I'll take Jimmy Howard with top 5 goaltending stats over some dude with great rebounding skill but s*** real world statistics. Jimmy's getting it done, rebounds or no.

I know what you can't wait to say: Manny Legacy! Manny Legacy! This is a completely different situation. Jimmy's an NHL rookie who's been his team's MVP. Legacy was never the best player on the Wings during his short stint as a respectable NHL goalie.

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Guest zackmorris

Ok I haven't kept up with this convo, but he is claiming Jimmy has a better save percentage than whoeverthehell because of "poor rebound control"?

And to back this up, he's just guessing at how many rebounds he's facing per game?

Wrong on so many levels. Just so blatantly wrong. 1) His rebound control isn't even that bad and 2) I will argue this until my dying breath-rebound control is overrated.

Edited by zackmorris

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:rolleyes:

You said his blinders skew his numbers, which is using his "bias" as the sole reason you are knocking down his argument.

Person 1 makes claim X (Outsider says that there are x shots extra faced on Howard because of his poor rebound control)

There is something objectionable about Person 1 (He is a "homer")

Therefore claim X is false (You say that his numbers are skewed)

Ahh, but I have not stated anything is objectionable about person 1 which is unrelated to this discussion. I have not called him a homer or even an Ozzie slappie (at least recently). I just think his exaggerations are born of Ozzie protectionism. Sort of like when a cornered dog goes on the attack. It no longer makes sense to ***** and whine about Babcock screwing Osgood etc. etc., so in the end it is about exaggerating Howards faults. Its cool I get it.

To refresh your memory I said:

"I think your Ozzie blinders skew your numbers." Or something close to that.

I was being generous by not flat out stating that he pulled this little number fantasy out of his/her ass. Mostly because I agree rebound control is the weakest part of his game. Well. that and general puck-handling. But overall these are minor issues that have and will continue to improve as Howard gains experience.

Edited by clutchngrab

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Guest zackmorris

^That's hilarious coming from Doc, who when down, just resorts to calling everyone around him a hater or a homer.

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