667 replies to this topic

[Doc Holliday]

Please stop acting like you are being oppressed for expressing some negativity towards Howard. We both know it's not true. There is a difference between being oppressed and being disagreed with.

Oppressed? I stated that my negativity was being somehow considered hate towards Howard.

The Jimmy Howard watch hate thread continues.

[stevkrause]

Oppressed? I stated that my negativity was being somehow considered hate towards Howard.

This exchange is taking a bad turn and both of you are starting to sound accusatory and defensive - agree to disagree and leave it at that...

[Howard He Do It?!]

Oppressed? I stated that my negativity was being somehow considered hate towards Howard.

That is a statement about this thread and all watch threads in general. They are a hotbed for hate and irrationality. Stop playing the victim.

[Doc Holliday]

That is a statement about this thread and all watch threads in general. They are a hotbed for hate and irrationality. Stop playing the victim.

Anyway, Howard needs to play well against Vancouver. Detroit is not going to have a full deck and the Canucks are deep. This could be a huge win for him if he can pull it off like he did in Vancouver earlier in the season.

[Nightfall]

Too true. Happens to every goal that comes through here though. It's not going to change anytime soon. Even if (big if) Jimmy makes every save all the time and lets the occasional goal in, people on these boards, in the arena, or anywhere else will bash him for it. What have you done for me lately? is mantra around here. Won't ever change and I can't say I blame anyone for that mentality.

Which is why Osgood continues to be a whipping boy here after he helped deliver 3 cups to Detroit.

[Nightfall]

As I already touched on, Howard was HORRIBLE last night, but his overall body of work has been very good and people blame him WAY too much...

As for CuJo, the people you know are the minority then... all you had to do was listen to sports talk radio at the time and the sheer idiocy spewing from people's mouths in regards to the goaltending situation was enough to drive a logical person insane... he was a MAJOR scapegoat those years and many were basically calling for his head, and that was the main reason that the whole Hasek 2.0 project happened when his groin was still ailing and we already had a goalie... that situation was one of the few black marks on an otherwise pristine Red Wings front office over the last 20 years...

I agree. Cujo was unceremoniously run out of town for the playoff losses. This from a guy who really was a class act in the organization. Yes, he got hurt. He went down for a conditioning stint and then came back and really played out of his mind. The contract was a bigger stigma than Cujo ever could bear. Many people hated him for that contract alone.

As I have said before, if you want to goaltend in Detroit, you had better be ready to get a lot of blame for the losses and little to no credit for the wins. Any rebound you give up is going to be analyzed and blamed upon you. God forbid you let in a weak goal. Deflections, defensive breakdowns, and the team in front of you that doesn't hustle is no excuse. Look at Manny Legace for instance. The guy got no goal support in the playoffs when they were beat by a hungry Edmonton squad. He was chased out of town after losing in the playoffs, and it wasn't all his fault. Not as bad as the Cujo situation, but still bad.

The Red Wing fan mentality is really out of whack here, and needs to be changed. I am a firm believer that fans who actually play the game are much more educated on the game of hockey than those armchair fans who sit on their asses and think they are experts because they watch one team 82-100 games in a season plus playoffs. From my standpoint, I became a much more realistic and understanding fan after I started playing back in 1998.

[CrimsonFlame]

Howard has been mediocre all year. He has some flashes of brilliance and then offsetting flashes of bad. It all averages out to him being mediocre. Yes the defense hasn't been great. But be honest to yourself here. What separates mediocre goalies from the elite goalies? The elite ones make those saves that they had no chance too. The elite goalies steal multiple games a year by standing on their head and making what should be impossible saves. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

Howard gets paid what, a little over 2 mil a year? He shouldn't be expected to be anything other than mediocre when we're getting him so cheaply. The problem comes when one side makes Howard out to be the greatest goalie in the league and the other side makes him out to be the worst goalie in the league. He's neither extreme. He's average.

That being said, at this point I'd rather see Macdonald get the majority of the next few games. He's really played well the last few outtings. Howard hasn't earned the starting job.

[Crymson]

Howard gets paid what, a little over 2 mil a year? He shouldn't be expected to be anything other than mediocre when we're getting him so cheaply. The problem comes when one side makes Howard out to be the greatest goalie in the league and the other side makes him out to be the worst goalie in the league. He's neither extreme. He's average.

He's currently making $700K.

Edited by Crymson, 22 March 2011 - 12:32 PM.

[CrimsonFlame]

He's currently making $700K.

Even better then. We're not paying for him to be anything other than mediocre. The real question is do we want to pay for a better goalie or are we happy with what we have.

[VM1138]

I agree. Cujo was unceremoniously run out of town for the playoff losses. This from a guy who really was a class act in the organization. Yes, he got hurt. He went down for a conditioning stint and then came back and really played out of his mind. The contract was a bigger stigma than Cujo ever could bear. Many people hated him for that contract alone.

As I have said before, if you want to goaltend in Detroit, you had better be ready to get a lot of blame for the losses and little to no credit for the wins. Any rebound you give up is going to be analyzed and blamed upon you. God forbid you let in a weak goal. Deflections, defensive breakdowns, and the team in front of you that doesn't hustle is no excuse. Look at Manny Legace for instance. The guy got no goal support in the playoffs when they were beat by a hungry Edmonton squad. He was chased out of town after losing in the playoffs, and it wasn't all his fault. Not as bad as the Cujo situation, but still bad.

The Red Wing fan mentality is really out of whack here, and needs to be changed. I am a firm believer that fans who actually play the game are much more educated on the game of hockey than those armchair fans who sit on their asses and think they are experts because they watch one team 82-100 games in a season plus playoffs. From my standpoint, I became a much more realistic and understanding fan after I started playing back in 1998.

The treatment of Cujo remains one of the very few black marks in recent Red Wings history. I never could understand why he was run out of town.

As for Howard, it's not irrational. The guy is more inconsistent than Osgood ever was. It's true that Detroit fans are notoriously hard on their goalies, but Howard has yet to do anything to really prove himself to us. Osgood may occasionally be a whipping boy, but he's earned his stripes and most fans love the guy for it. Howard has done a few things so far (carried the depleted team in 09-10, getting chippy with some opposing players, that save without his helmet) but until he wins when it matters most his inconsistency will necessarily be the focus.

[Nightfall]

As for Howard, it's not irrational. The guy is more inconsistent than Osgood ever was. It's true that Detroit fans are notoriously hard on their goalies, but Howard has yet to do anything to really prove himself to us. Osgood may occasionally be a whipping boy, but he's earned his stripes and most fans love the guy for it. Howard has done a few things so far (carried the depleted team in 09-10, getting chippy with some opposing players, that save without his helmet) but until he wins when it matters most his inconsistency will necessarily be the focus.

Sorry, but I disagree. He has yet to be tested. He had two playoff rounds and this year he will get another opportunity. I figure that the Wings will give him his due in the next couple years. If he can't cut it, they will find someone else. You really can't judge Howard's career because of how young he is. Even great goalies have had horrible seasons when they were young. Hell, Tim Thomas had a crap season last season, and then he rebounded and has had his best season to date.

You and other fans want to talk about consistency? He is tied with the most wins in the league. I would rather his playoff performances be the judge of his consistency though. Last season was a learning experience. This season the stakes are higher, especially with a squad that will place 2nd or 3rd in the NHL. "What matters most" is the playoffs.

Until then, I do think its irrational to expect perfection from any human being in net. If he starts 60 games and wins 66% of them, thats a 40 win season which is great for any goalie.

[Howard He Do It?!]

Even better then. We're not paying for him to be anything other than mediocre. The real question is do we want to pay for a better goalie or are we happy with what we have.

That depends. Do you want to pay a goaltender $5 million and give up an important offensive or defensive asset or do you want a mid-level goalie that can make the saves but relies more on the defense and the two-way play of the offense?

The Wings are successful because they can retain top talent for long periods of time. This works for forwards and defenseman but does not for goaltenders. I don't want a goaltender with a 7 year contract to bring his cap hit down. With the way the Wings currently operate, you are going to have an average goalie and people need to realize this. People have expectations that can only be realized by an all star goaltender and when Howard doesn't live up to those expectations they dump on him.

[CrimsonFlame]

That depends. Do you want to pay a goaltender $5 million and give up an important offensive or defensive asset or do you want a mid-level goalie that can make the saves but relies more on the defense and the two-way play of the offense?

The Wings are successful because they can retain top talent for long periods of time. This works for forwards and defenseman but does not for goaltenders. I don't want a goaltender with a 7 year contract to bring his cap hit down. With the way the Wings currently operate, you are going to have an average goalie and people need to realize this. People have expectations that can only be realized by an all star goaltender and when Howard doesn't live up to those expectations they dump on him.

Hey that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people would rather spend a little more on a more consistent and better preforming goalie at the cost of a forward or two. Just two differing opinions.

I do however think Jmac has been playing above Howard's level lately and should be given a few starts just to see what he can really do now. Plus if he doesn't work out than maybe that will make Jim work harder to get a starting spot back and give him some much needed rest before the post season if he's our guy.

[Howard He Do It?!]

Hey that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people would rather spend a little more on a more consistent and better preforming goalie at the cost of a forward or two. Just two differing opinions.

I do however think Jmac has been playing above Howard's level lately and should be given a few starts just to see what he can really do now. Plus if he doesn't work out than maybe that will make Jim work harder to get a starting spot back and give him some much needed rest before the post season if he's our guy.

And a lot of people thought Ty Conklin should have started over Ozzie in the playoffs. In the end your #1 is usually your best option. Howard will not get any better in the playoffs if he is on the bench.

[CrimsonFlame]

And a lot of people thought Ty Conklin should have started over Ozzie in the playoffs. In the end your #1 is usually your best option. Howard will not get any better in the playoffs if he is on the bench.

Yeah but Osgood was a vet who had proved multiple times he can turn it on in the post season. Howard hasn't really proved anything yet. He's still relatively untested.

[Howard He Do It?!]

Yeah but Osgood was a vet who had proved multiple times he can turn it on in the post season. Howard hasn't really proved anything yet. He's still relatively untested.

And he'll remain unproven and untested unless you start him. The playoffs are his and they ought to be.

[Firehawk]

I went to NHL.com and checked a couple stats for HOward.

His GAA is 2.79, which has improved slightly. But, he's still ranked 55th out of the 84 goalies that came up.

His save % was .908, which is 48th in the league. I'm sorry, but on a team like the Red Wings, a very sound team, very good team, these numbers are pathetic.

Those comparing Osgood to Howard, there's no comparison. Ozzie quarterbacked us to 2 cups, and I just don't think it's fair. Howard has done nothing yet. This playoff is make or break. I was behind Howard until 1/3 of the way through the season, and as of late I've really lost confidence in him. All 4 goals were absolutely pathetic. If howard lets in goals that are very difficult to stop or impossible, that's one thing. But every goal he let in yesterday was just pathetic. He is slow to get back to posts, he doesn't even attempt to control rebounds (a la 2 of the goals yesterday), he over-reacts to shots/passes...it's ridiculous.

I think he's rattled. I don't know if he sucks this much or if it's a mental game with him right now. I will forgive everything if he plays well in the playoffs, but I don't have much faith.

[Firehawk]

One other stat on Howard, which is quite telling. NHL.com says he's given up 149 goals, which is 79th out of 84 goalies. That is scary. If Howard was on an average team, he'd probably have been blown up by now and moved to the AHL.

[Z Winged Dangler]

Sorry, but I disagree. He has yet to be tested. He had two playoff rounds and this year he will get another opportunity. I figure that the Wings will give him his due in the next couple years. If he can't cut it, they will find someone else. You really can't judge Howard's career because of how young he is. Even great goalies have had horrible seasons when they were young. Hell, Tim Thomas had a crap season last season, and then he rebounded and has had his best season to date.

You and other fans want to talk about consistency? He is tied with the most wins in the league. I would rather his playoff performances be the judge of his consistency though. Last season was a learning experience. This season the stakes are higher, especially with a squad that will place 2nd or 3rd in the NHL. "What matters most" is the playoffs.

Until then, I do think its irrational to expect perfection from any human being in net. If he starts 60 games and wins 66% of them, thats a 40 win season which is great for any goalie.

the wings have been outscoring teams to win cause howard has been horribly inconsistent and not dependable. 2.79 GAA and .908 save % is nothing to get excited about. less than 2 GAA and 92% is something to get excited about. i hope McCollum finishes strong and pushes for the starter job next year. my faith in howard is expended. i'd feel better having joey mac finish the better part of the season and playoffs at this point.

[brandon27]

I really dont see the need for all the Howard hate. I was at the game last night, and I saw more defensive breakdowns than I did poor goaltending. The first goal he gave up to Dupuis, was weak, no doubt, but again, if you watch the play, the two wings D-men are just standing around nowhere near the puck or the play. He didnt seem to have much of a chance on many, and I've see poor defense like that more often than not this year. Hell, this team used to be so stingy on D that my grandma could have played goal for the Wings. That's just not the case now. This team used to give up 20 shots a game, if that a few years ago, now its regularly well over 30 probably. Howard has, no doubt been a bit weak and inconsistent at times, but I think its more a problem with the defensemen, than the goaltender.