McCarty pulled a Bertuzzi

[cjm502 165]

The entire Wings team gooned up on that the guy the rest of the night. He got more than he deserved after the night was over.

[mmamolo 287]

Precisely. We can't expect people to control their actions when they're pissed off. Like smashing your goalie instead of the net with your stick. Completely unavoidable.

That's not what was being said. It's not that it's unavoidable but the fact is s*** does happen. There is a big difference between smashing your stick and accidentally hitting your goalie and planning out in advance to do so.

I do agree that I think it's bulls*** that ppl are penalized far worse when someone gets hurt. I also agree that we see what should be gross infractions go unpenalized simply because there was no fall out. However, it's not so cut and dry. Big injuries cause media attention and public out roar for action to be taken. It becomes a balancing act for the NHL Disciplinary Committee to reprimend the guilty player while appeasing the public. That's why you see somethign like the Bertuzzi/Moore situation scrutinized while other situations are basically never heard fro magain.

[Inultus 12]

That's why you see somethign like the Bertuzzi/Moore situation scrutinized while other situations are basically never heard fro magain.

Personally I understand why, I just don't agree with it. I don't think that a person's status (be it celebrity, politician, superstar hockey player, whatever) should have a bearing on punishment, just as I don't believe the aftermath of a dirty hit should have a bearing on punishment.

I do understand that to give a light punishment to a guy who ends someone's career send a bad message to the public. However, inconsistent reffing and punishments are even more so a black eye to this league, especially to people used to watching football where EVERY questionable play is reviewed (going off on a tangent here...).

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Wow this is amazing, really.

For starters, Mac grabbed whoever that was an hauled him to the ice. He did not punch him in the side of the head then slam his face into the ice.

Secondly, if you drink and drive and get into an accident, your punishment is going to depend on the kind of damage you do. If you kill a person, you are going to be charged with a hell of a lot more than if you simply give them some cuts and bruises. That's how life works, and in every single form of justice, the end result depends on how harshly you are punished.

Completely different scenarios.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

For starters, Mac grabbed whoever that was an hauled him to the ice. He did not punch him in the side of the head then slam his face into the ice.

Pretty much this. Watch the Bert video again sometime, he really lets Moore have it with a tremendous swing. Mac just wants a piggy back ride.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

What McCarty did was less severe than the Bertuzzi incident. It's terrible what happened to Moore, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. However, I think it is important to remember that Bertuzzi didn't mean to cause an injury and while fighting/hitting/punishing Moore was premeditated, hurting him like that was not.

Suspensions in hockey are based on the outcome of the injury to some extent because there is such a variation in the severity of injuries occurring from similar hits, fights, etc. Is this fair? No, but it allows the NHL (and other leagues) to appear fair to those hurt. In hockey, being off by a few inches or seconds can mean the difference between a terrible injury and nothing. For example, if Bradley hadn't been KO'd by Carcillo the other week and instead fought back there probably wouldn't have been a suspension. However, Carcillo rocked Bradley with his punch (didn't let Bradley full square up) and was suspended.

[StormJH1 231]

To those people who say that the McCarty/Lemieux incident wasn't "premeditated", were you alive in 1997? There was so much build-up to that rivalry and particularly that regular season game (which I believe was the 4th between the Wings and Avs that year, but the FIRST where Lemieux actually dressed) that anyone listening to AM radio or following the Wings in any way, shape, or form was talking about "revenge" against Lemieux.

But there's no way that hit was "dirty" in the way Bertuzzi's was. The Bertuzzi hit was a cheap shot during live play. Lemieux's fight happened 5-10 seconds into an ice-wide brawl that started with Larionov/Forsberg, followed by Roy making a beeline for the ruckus, only to be intercepted by Shanahan at mid-ice. How is your head not on a swivel when even the GOALTENDERS are already fighting in an all-out brawl!?!

[BeeRYCE 2]

McCarty basically tackled the guy without a sucker punch. Bertuzzi stalked a guy around the ice for a good while only to whack him full force in the side of the head.

[StormJH1 231]

Also, that McCarty hit on the Dallas player was, again, not even close to Bertuzzi's. Bertuzzi (IIRC) was a sucker punch followed by driving him face first into the ice. That's what caused so much damage.

In the video posted at the beginning of this thread, the guy cheapshots Yzerman and leaves him in an unresponsive heap in the corner (consider him "on notice" at that point). McCarty catches up to him from behind, but instead of pile driving him into the ice, he basically gives him a facewash that turns into a tackle. No, it wasn't a "fair fight" in the sense that the two guys were face to face with equal opportunity to hit each other, but it also was not a violation of "The Code".

People run these YouTube clips completely out of context and want to compare dirty offenses to one another. There's no justification for over-the-top violence, but chasing some IMMEDIATELY after he left your captain dead on the ice is not the same as putting a finishing move on Moore two weeks after he ran Naslund. Also, there's a reason Moore got so badly hurt and this guy didn't, and what McCarty did was actually pretty restrained, given the circumstances.

[StormJH1 231]

Erm, not really, Lemieux probably expected payback at some point, but McCarty himself said that he sucker-punched Lemieux. Bert actually told Moore that he wanted to fight numerous times in that game.

Yet, again, he sucker punched him during an all-out brawl on the ice that even the goalies were involved in. How do expect to avoid fighting or any kind of physical contact when even Igor freakin' Larionov is in the middle of a scrum? Lemieux had to have known that a fight was coming (this guy had 100 PIM's like 9 times in his career up to that), but he wanted to do it on his own terms. That simply wasn't realistic.

[RedArmy 4]

You suffer the consequences of your actions. I believe Bertuzzi didn't mean anything horrible to happen to Moore, but it did so he has to deal with everything that comes with paralyzing a fellow player. He did his time, and lost a lot of different things because of this situation, he'll forever been known for this, and that's enough punishment in my mind. What's in the past is in the past to me, Bertuzzi was a very nice and down to earth guy when I've met him and that's how I'll picture him in my mind, I'm not going to judge him for one mistake; Although I don't blame people that would.

actually the first statement I agree with you on probably... definitely true, he paid for it with money, career, public image and conscience. The guy was sorry and made a mistake, let's move on...

[SaCkaveli20 275]

Probably the greatest of all time. Niedermayer hits Worrell in the head with his stick Worrell looks at him like "motherf***er, are you CRAZY?"

[Broken 16 381]

To those people who say that the McCarty/Lemieux incident wasn't "premeditated", were you alive in 1997? There was so much build-up to that rivalry and particularly that regular season game (which I believe was the 4th between the Wings and Avs that year, but the FIRST where Lemieux actually dressed) that anyone listening to AM radio or following the Wings in any way, shape, or form was talking about "revenge" against Lemieux.

But there's no way that hit was "dirty" in the way Bertuzzi's was. The Bertuzzi hit was a cheap shot during live play. Lemieux's fight happened 5-10 seconds into an ice-wide brawl that started with Larionov/Forsberg, followed by Roy making a beeline for the ruckus, only to be intercepted by Shanahan at mid-ice. How is your head not on a swivel when even the GOALTENDERS are already fighting in an all-out brawl!?!

How many times have you ever seen Igor Larionov throw punches on the ice? Not only was it premeditated... he had an accomplice.

[Guest ZetterbergFourty]

Wouldnt this be Bertuzzi pulling a McCarty then?

[Guest micah]

Has anyone on this board seen footage of the '97 Wings/Avs brawl? Larionov was not "throwing punches", he hugged Forsberg to the ground.

Lemieux did not have his head on a swivel durring the brawl, because there was no brawl until he was cheapshotted by Mac. It was two men hugging on the ice and a tiny scrum, not a brawl. Goalies were in their creases, everyone's gloves were on, right up until Mac blindsided Claude.

[gcom007 1,465]

Motion to close thread...

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Stand up for your captain. Especially on a dirty hit. If Moore got up, Bertuzzi probably would still be star. I love the video too, watched it a while ago, frig the 90's were good years

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Has anyone on this board seen footage of the '97 Wings/Avs brawl? Larionov was not "throwing punches", he hugged Forsberg to the ground.

Lemieux did not have his head on a swivel durring the brawl, because there was no brawl until he was cheapshotted by Mac. It was two men hugging on the ice and a tiny scrum, not a brawl. Goalies were in their creases, everyone's gloves were on, right up until Mac blindsided Claude.

Yeah I guess two shots to the side of Forsberg's head was him trying to hug his face and missing.

Also once again the two situations are not comparable. There is a reason Moore broke his neck and Lemieux did not.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

What a dumbass thread.

These two plays could only be considered remotely alike for those who think people falling on Moore is what broke his neck and not the suckerpunch to from behind. Mac tackles the guy from behind and rides him to the ice.

Nevermind, I've already wasted to many words on this. If it's not obvious to him by the video, there ain't no explaining it.

EDIT: My favorite part of that video is Mac pointing at the guy as he says "you're ******* dead!"

Edited December 18, 2009 by haroldsnepsts

[Guest micah]

Yeah I guess two shots to the side of Forsberg's head was him trying to hug his face and missing.

Also once again the two situations are not comparable. There is a reason Moore broke his neck and Lemieux did not.

A) "Two shots"? Come on now. Larionov didn't try s*** and didn't do s***. They weren't fighting and Larionov sure as hell wasn't doing anything that I would call "throwing punches". I've seen punches. Those were not punches.

B) I wasn't comparing s***, I was responding to the dildos who seem to think that Larionov was throwing punches (he wasn't) and that goalies were fighting when Mac honestly and cleanly squared up with Claude Lemieu for a gentlemanly bout of fisticuffs.

If you just *have* to be a dickhead, go correct the posters who thing there was a pier 6 brawl underway when Mac met up with Lemieux.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

I had previously compared the Bert/Moore incident to when McCarty sucker-punched Lemieux in revenge.

I was watching some fight vids and ran across this one of McCarty getting revenge for a hit on Yzerman. It reminds me a lot of what Bert did except that in this case the guy McCarty goes after didn't get hurt.

We hold McCarty up to be a Hockeytown hero (back in the day) but Bert was totally ostracized for what he did. I just think it's interesting how much people's opinions depend on the consequences of an action, not on the action itself.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

A) "Two shots"? Come on now. Larionov didn't try s*** and didn't do s***. They weren't fighting and Larionov sure as hell wasn't doing anything that I would call "throwing punches". I've seen punches. Those were not punches.

They were punches. The same kind of punches Datsyuk threw on Gary Roberts in the 08 finals. Weak and with the gloves still on, but punches nonetheless.

B) I wasn't comparing s***, I was responding to the dildos who seem to think that Larionov was throwing punches (he wasn't) and that goalies were fighting when Mac honestly and cleanly squared up with Claude Lemieu for a gentlemanly bout of fisticuffs.

Dildos? Come on, you are a married man. Lets tone down that kind of language.

If you just *have* to be a dickhead, go correct the posters who thing there was a pier 6 brawl underway when Mac met up with Lemieux.

Sorry that I chose to respond to your comment instead? Not everyone is going to respond to everyone else. It happens on a message board with a reasonable amount of activity.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

God damn it I miss s*** like that. Mac, Kocur, Shanny all on the same team.

[Zetts 236]

Oh, this can't go anywhere good.

The main difference (if this hasn't been mentioned, I don't know), is that McCarty never drove the guy's face straight into the ice.

Personally, I always felt kind of bad for Bertuzzi about this. What he did was a cheap shot, but punching someone in the back of the head, while a cheap shot, would not get him this much notoriety. Similar sucker punches have happened with several other players and everyone just forgets about it. It seemed like an accident when he fell on top of Moore, driving his face into the ice. A cheap shot that went wrong pretty much.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Zetts

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

This is retarded. This is seriously brain-slow. I can feel the heat from the other side of the room. What a flame. Geez.