1/5 GDT: Red Wings 1 at Ducks 4

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Oh, and not signing Afinogenov is starting to look like a pretty wasted opportunity for a team struggling to score. The guy has 19 points and whats his salary? 800,000.

Giving up Quincey, signing Ralfalski for an astronomical long term deal, signing Draper to a long term deal, resigning Williams.....

Some of his decisions have been.......questionable.

Thank god for Bertuzzi and May!

But jesus, I hate when people mention Quincey, he'd be so helpful on the powerplay with Lidstrom setting him up for the bombs from the point.

[syntax 359]

All around badness. We really needed these points.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Everything was in control after those two goals in the first... then we got that goal from Filppula and I felt pretty good about that game. I can take losing 2-1, right? But 4-1? FML. Bah. A loss is a loss, but I'd rather see the GAA as low as possible.

Can't wait to have Zetterberg back. This team is painfully mediocre without him.

[ShanahanMan 473]

If the Wings had anyone playing at Kovalchuk's level (paging Mr. Datsyuk) they'd be doing great with whoever was on his line too.

True, which is why I believe getting all our players won't make as big a difference (though it will make a bit) as people think.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Oh, and not signing Afinogenov is starting to look like a pretty wasted opportunity for a team struggling to score. The guy has 19 points and whats his salary? 800,000.

Giving up Quincey, signing Ralfalski for an astronomical long term deal, signing Draper to a long term deal, resigning Williams.....

Some of his decisions have been.......questionable.

Yeah, but you have to consider the context on a lot of those moves (though Quincey is a head scratcher). He brought in Rafalski when Schneider signed with the Ducks and Holland had to replace him. And at the time the cap was going up and up and up. Now salaries are holding steady so Rafalski's deal looks out of line, especially with his play lately. At the time of the signing I don't remember it being totally overpayment.

As for Williams, I see that as grasping at straws after Hossa, Sammy and Hudler all took off. Williams could at least replace Sammy on the point of the power play.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Oh, and not signing Afinogenov is starting to look like a pretty wasted opportunity for a team struggling to score. The guy has 19 points and whats his salary? 800,000.

Giving up Quincey, signing Ralfalski for an astronomical long term deal, signing Draper to a long term deal, resigning Williams.....

Some of his decisions have been.......questionable.

There is a reason Afinogenov is being paid 800k.

And Quincey dug his own hole. Get the f*** over it.

[ShanahanMan 473]

Thank god for Bertuzzi and May!

But jesus, I hate when people mention Quincey, he'd be so helpful on the powerplay with Lidstrom setting him up for the bombs from the point.

Ey! Bertuzzi wasn't a bad signing at all, especially for 1.25.

Still......how Holland saw more "potential" in Meech and Lebda over Quincey is absolutely beyond me.

[Yzermania 156]

True, which is why I believe getting all our players won't make as big a difference (though it will make a bit) as people think.

the only one I think will make a big difference is mule. Hopefully it's not too late by then though.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Can't wait to have Zetterberg back. This team is painfully mediocre without him.

Agreed. even those games where he was snakebit, he always looked like he was busting his ass out there. He still leads the game in SOG.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

what i like about quincey arguments is that every time they come up they're always different

[Miller Brew 0]

Man, you keep being able to take the words right of my mouth. Spot on. Many people seem to forget that even when we HAD our full team without injuries, we still got absolutely destroyed by the Blues and won a game we didn't deserve to against the Hawks. Plus, top players are simply not playing like it. Lids was a freakin -3 this game and Dats was no where to be seen.

I have to say that people are in for a rude awakening when the team is back to being full and scratch their heads when we still lose games. The players on the ice NOW, need to step up NOW.

Because Wings wouldn't have turned it around? They were doomed since day one?

Wings missing 335 points due to injuries has nothing to do with it, right?

Cool story, bro.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Miller Brew

[Guest Lidstromboli]

oh wait.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Ey! Bertuzzi wasn't a bad signing at all, especially for 1.25.

Still......how Holland saw more "potential" in Meech and Lebda over Quincey is absolutely beyond me.

Maybe you should have been paying attention in training camp.

Honestly some of you guys should just make a thread where you guys can talk about how horrible the Quincey loss was, because I swear ten years from now you people aren't going to shut the hell up about it.

[gcom007 1,465]

So you are telling me you are completely happy with the bang for the 13 mil? That's a lot of coin for not a lot of offensive production. In Lids case I give him 4 mil slack for his defensive prowess (except for tonight), though with Rafi, one must question his value if he doesn't bring the offense. C'mon, the reason these guys are paid more than Brad Stuart is because they have a 2 - 4 M offensive upside. Maybe that's the real problem - paying any defenseman more than 5 mil is a joke.

Is it a perfect situation? No. Is it s***ty? Hell no. I'm not complaining. I think they'll both improve down the stretch, and I think they're both worth their money. I think you are too caught up in a short-term context.

Anyways...

Rafalski: There are a lot of people who would've paid Rafalski more than the Wings did. A guy like him is going to stir up the fans a bit at times when he has his occasional flop on defense, but at the end of the day, all things considered, things work out. I would rather pay him $6 million a year over 5-6 years than $7-8 million over 3-4 which is what other teams were looking to do. The guy logs a lot of minutes and sets up a lot of offense. He's never scored a lot of goals at any point in his career. He's not putting up as many assists but we're not scoring goals across the board. We lost a lot of offense in the off-season and we've got lots of big guys injured. Don't think for a second that his numbers, especially assists won't improve once he starts setting up solid/star NHLer's as opposed to rookies and GR call-ups. And hey, we haven't missed the Stanley Cup Finals since we picked him up. He was also 4th in defensive scoring in the playoffs last year, with Lidstrom leading.

Lidstrom: Give me a break. Pissing and moaning about Lidstrom and his contract is like getting a blowjob from Jessica Alba and complaining that it was a bit toothy.

[ShanahanMan 473]

There is a reason Afinogenov is being paid 800k.

And Quincey dug his own hole. Get the f*** over it.

And what is that reason? Because a consistent offensive player had an off season?

Oh and if you're referring to Quincey's "average" training camp as being the reason why he dug his own hole then, well, you're nuts. Bad training camps happen, big deal. There is abolsutely NO reason Holland should have let him go over players like Meech and Lebda who can barely make the NHL level.

[clutchngrab 12]

Oh, and not signing Afinogenov is starting to look like a pretty wasted opportunity for a team struggling to score. The guy has 19 points and whats his salary? 800,000.

Giving up Quincey, signing Ralfalski for an astronomical long term deal, signing Draper to a long term deal, resigning Williams.....

Some of his decisions have been.......questionable.

Agreed. Many decisions have been based on past performance and not on today or into the future. I suppose it is human nature to try to hang onto things as long as possible. However, sports in particular, is very dynamic. Players suck, are great and suck again. There are lots of variables - and age is certainly a major one.

Having said all that, I thought this team was well positioned going into the year. I though Leno would be good, Bart would score (which he has) and Cleary, Mule, and Flip could pick up some of the scoring slack. I had my doubts about goal-tending, but Howard has over-achieved. Kronner, and Stuart have been very good as I suspected. Really only 2 things have gone wrong: Injuries and the top 2 D-men performing well under past expectations.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

There is a reason Afinogenov is being paid 800k.

And Quincey dug his own hole. Get the f*** over it.

It's hard to when you guys keep making this revisionist history with Quincey and forgive Holland everything.

So when guys like Franzen suddenly explode into goal scoring machines, it's kudos to Holland and company for seeing it all along. When they let go someone like Quincey and are forced to put him on waivers in part because they re-signed Chelios past his prime (he played 28 games that season), it must be all Quincey's fault.

Makes sense.

[gcom007 1,465]

Maybe you should have been paying attention in training camp.

Honestly some of you guys should just make a thread where you guys can talk about how horrible the Quincey loss was, because I swear ten years from now you people aren't going to shut the hell up about it.

Yes please, but we ought to take it a step further...

We need a sub-forum for all of the bulls*** topics like this. We can call it the LGW's Dungeon. It'll be great.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

And what is that reason? Because a consistent offensive player had an off season?

His last decent offensive season was in 2007.

Oh and if you're referring to Quincey's "average" training camp as being the reason why he dug his own hole then, well, you're nuts. Bad training camps happen, big deal. There is abolsutely NO reason Holland should have let him go over players like Meech and Lebda who can barely make the NHL level.

When you know there is a logjam on defense and your ass is on the line, there is no such thing as "oh it was one training camp" as an excuse.

I'm sure Holland wishes he could have kept Quincey IN 20-20 HINDSTIGHT but the odds are he wasn't going to get any powerplay time (where he gets the majority of his points) or even play as well here as he did there. It was Quincey's shot to make it as a consistent player on the team and he got outplayed. Simple as that.

[ShanahanMan 473]

Because Wings wouldn't have turned it around? They were doomed since day one?

Wings missing 335 points due to injuries has nothing to do with it, right?

Cool story, bro.

They might have, and they might have not. My point is don't be so quick to assume that players coming back will automatically fix our team and make them win.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

It's hard to when you guys keep making this revisionist history with Quincey and forgive Holland everything.

So when guys like Franzen suddenly explode into goal scoring machines, it's kudos to Holland and company for seeing it all along. When they let go someone like Quincey and are forced to put him on waivers in part because they re-signed Chelios past his prime (he played 28 games that season), it must be all Quincey's fault.

Makes sense.

Strawman arguments are great.

Let me know when your arguments aren't ripe with logical fallacies.

[Octopus's Garden 147]

Umm, I'm pretty damn excited and confident about where we're at considering we don't have Franzen, Cleary, Z, Kronwall, etc...I mean, seriously, we're right there in the hunt. That's right where we need to be. When this team gets guys like Franzen, Kronwall and Z back, our offense will be helped dramatically. Those three guys are rather major offensive losses for us, and we're still right there in the hunt.

To some extent, I agree ... I'm happy that they've hung around so long and excited to get everyone back.

That said, they're 5 out of the playoffs and the Western Conference is loaded right now -- at least in comparison to the East. It's going to take a real strong close just to get into the playoffs. We can all keep acting like this team is going to blow up when the guys get back, but they really need to get a lot of points on the board in the near future. I mean, lose at LA and SJ (real possibilities) and they're looking at maybe being NINE out of a spot with 38 to play.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

When you know there is a logjam on defense and your ass is on the line, there is no such thing as "oh it was one training camp" as an excuse.

I'm sure Holland wishes he could have kept Quincey IN 20-20 HINDSTIGHT but the odds are he wasn't going to get any powerplay time (where he gets the majority of his points) or even play as well here as he did there. It was Quincey's shot to make it as a consistent player on the team and he got outplayed. Simple as that.

And how did that logjam get there? I guess that was Quincey's fault.

Sometimes letting a player get "overly ripe" like Holland likes to develop them, actually just lets them rot.

[ShanahanMan 473]

His last decent offensive season was in 2007.

When you know there is a logjam on defense and your ass is on the line, there is no such thing as "oh it was one training camp" as an excuse.

I'm sure Holland wishes he could have kept Quincey IN 20-20 HINDSTIGHT but the odds are he wasn't going to get any powerplay time (where he gets the majority of his points) or even play as well here as he did there. It was Quincey's shot to make it as a consistent player on the team and he got outplayed. Simple as that.

His consistent play from 2005-2008 in Grand Rapids and Detroit should have been enough to keep him over Lebda (who was benched repeatedly in 08 for his lack of work ethic and is just NOT good player) and Meech who looked out of place even when he was called up in 07-08.

No, Quincey is not something I'm gonna be getting over any time soon.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Strawman arguments are great.

Let me know when your arguments aren't ripe with logical fallacies.

Hi I'm Doc Holliday. when someone disagrees with me and I don't have a leg to stand on, I just get all condescending and resort to my debate team tactics from junior high.

My point is that obviously this organization has a lot of ability at spotting talent. Zetterberg, Franzen, Datsyuk, Cleary's comeback, all the way back to picking up Draper for a dollar. They are obviously very good at recognizing the potential in players. It's how the organization has stayed competitive in spite of not having good draft positions.

Yet in a rare case when they screw up, like they did with Quincey, it's somehow inconceivable to you that they deserve any of the responsibility for not seeing the player he could become?

Because they're pretty damn good at recognizing the kind of environment a player needs to succeed. But they blew it with Quincey. He wasn't a clear standout in camp, and they somehow thought Meech would develop into a better player than he would. That's a bad decision by a good organization, and it's not all Quincey's fault.

Edited January 6, 2010 by haroldsnepsts