1/5 GDT: Red Wings 1 at Ducks 4

[Miller Brew 0]

They might have, and they might have not. My point is don't be so quick to assume that players coming back will automatically fix our team and make them win.

Because 335 points won't help this teams scoring issues?

Edited January 6, 2010 by Miller Brew

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

And how did that logjam get there? I guess that was Quincey's fault.

Sometimes letting a player get "overly ripe" like Holland likes to develop them, actually just lets them rot.

No, Quincey's fault was not playing better than the players who were selected above him. This is the same guy who got bothered he didn't receive a Stanley Cup ring after playing six games.

Hindsight showed that Quincey was better than Meech and Lebda. That doesn't mean at the time Holland made the wrong decision.

[clutchngrab 12]

Is it a perfect situation? No. Is it s***ty? Hell no. I'm not complaining. I think they'll both improve down the stretch, and I think they're both worth their money. I think you are too caught up in a short-term context.

Anyways...

Rafalski: There are a lot of people who would've paid Rafalski more than the Wings did. A guy like him is going to stir up the fans a bit at times when he has his occasional flop on defense, but at the end of the day, all things considered, things work out. I would rather pay him $6 million a year over 5-6 years than $7-8 million over 3-4 which is what other teams were looking to do. The guy logs a lot of minutes and sets up a lot of offense. He's never scored a lot of goals at any point in his career. He's not putting up as many assists but we're not scoring goals across the board. We lost a lot of offense in the off-season and we've got lots of big guys injured. Don't think for a second that his numbers, especially assists won't improve once he starts setting up solid/star NHLer's as opposed to rookies and GR call-ups. And hey, we haven't missed the Stanley Cup Finals since we picked him up. He was also 4th in defensive scoring in the playoffs last year, with Lidstrom leading.

Lidstrom: Give me a break. Pissing and moaning about Lidstrom and his contract is like getting a blowjob from Jessica Alba and complaining that it was a bit toothy.

Let me just set the record straight - I don't dislike Rafalski and Lids has been my favorite player since the Yzerman days. But we are in a very different time in the cap era. If teams are to win, they must really look hard at the cost/benefit for any given player within the cap. That just doesn't apply to today, but to next year and the year after that. Look at Anaheim. Scott Neidermayer was the bomb a few short years ago and now is what -13? At what cost? Do you think that might have a little to do with where the ducks are in the standings? All I am saying is that the cap has created a much more rigorous environment in which we should look at players.

Frankly, if I could ditch Rfalskis 6 mil right now I would. And I am guessing if the Wings don't make the playoffs he's outta here if he waves his no-trade.

[gcom007 1,465]

It's hard to when you guys keep making this revisionist history with Quincey and forgive Holland everything.

So when guys like Franzen suddenly explode into goal scoring machines, it's kudos to Holland and company for seeing it all along. When they let go someone like Quincey and are forced to put him on waivers in part because they re-signed Chelios past his prime (he played 28 games that season), it must be all Quincey's fault.

Makes sense.

Franzen busted his ass from day one and had the hands all along. He got slowed up by some freak injuries that screwed with his head for awhile. He didn't suddenly explode. Hell, as I've "tooted" numerous times, I was saying early in the season before he got going that as soon as he got a chance on a big level, that he was going to explode. I figured it'd be the playoffs but when Holmstrom went down, it came early and what do you know, he gets it going. But all along, the skill was there and he never really let up on the work. He just had to get his head straight which is tough after some of the s*** he dealt with.

Quincey has no excuse for not earning his spot. He really doesn't. I'm not saying I like it, and truth be told, I probably would've kept him. But at the end of the day, I don't know all the circumstances and neither do you. For all I know, it could have had more to do with attitude problems or differences with the coaching staff. We don't know. Bottom line though is that when it counted more than ever, he didn't do what he needed to for us. Hell, if he had been kept, maybe he wouldn't have performed so well. He would never have had the same role, ice time and power play time here. And maybe he needed the kick in the butt of getting booted by the Wings to kick his attitude or work ethic into shape.

I don't know, but neither do you. I'm not saying forgive Holland for everything and I'd be more than happy to discuss his mistakes and accomplishments in an objective manner, but I don't think the Quincey situation was some horrific oversight. I think at the time there were probably solid reasons, more than we know, as to why he left. Until I sit down with all parties involved and here about it firsthand, I'm not about to throw Holland/Babcock under the bus and cry about it. It's over and done.

Honestly, who really cares? Even with Lebda and Meech, we've got the 8th best defense in the league right now. It'll get better as the season goes on too.

We've been blessed by so many under the radar guys who have exploded. It seems utterly silly to me to get real worked up about one guy that got away...

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Hi I'm Doc Holliday. when someone disagrees with me and I don't have a leg to stand on, I just get all condescending and resort to my debate team tactics from junior high.

When someone is called out for their leap of logic, they tend to resort to personal attacks. Not surprising.

My point is that obviously this organization has a lot of ability at spotting talent. Zetterberg, Franzen, Datsyuk, Cleary's comeback, all the way back to picking up Draper for a dollar. They are obviously very good at it. It's how the organization has stayed competitive in spite of not having good draft positions.

Yet in a rare case when they screw up, like they did with Quincey, it's somehow inconceivable to you that they deserve any of the responsibility for not seeing the player he could become?

Because they're pretty damn good at recognizing the kind of environment a player needs to succeed. But they blew it with Quincey. He wasn't a clear standout in camp, and they somehow thought Meech would develop into a better player than he would. That's a bad decision by a good organization, and it's not all Quincey's fault.

If you have three players fighting for two roster spots, who are you going to take?

And if you take the best two players, is that honestly a poor decision? It may not be the correct decision down the road, but that doesn't make it a bad decision.

I also don't credit Holland as some god for getting Franzen, because he was not picked as a player to do what he is doing now. He was picked as a hard-working defensive forward that could chip in on occasion. That's what I give Holland credit for. Picking up a workhorse.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

No, Quincey's fault was not playing better than the players who were selected above him. This is the same guy who got bothered he didn't receive a Stanley Cup ring after playing six games.

Hindsight showed that Quincey was better than Meech and Lebda. That doesn't mean at the time Holland made the wrong decision.

Even if it were true, this is relevant to the discussion how?

It means Holland absolutely made the wrong decision. this is what he and many people in the Wings organization do for a living. Evaluate talent and potential in players. the fact that he picked Meech over Quincey shows he absolutely made the wrong choice. Quincey didn't stand out in camp, but to put all the blame on him is ridiculous.

Holland was the one making the decision, not Quincey, so part of the blame obviously falls on his shoulders. Just like the credit does when he makes the good ones.

Look, I don't want to derail this thread further, but as much as you ***** about us not getting over the Quincey thing, you sure seem to still have some beef with him. A

[clutchngrab 12]

Hi I'm Doc Holliday. when someone disagrees with me and I don't have a leg to stand on, I just get all condescending and resort to my debate team tactics from junior high.

My point is that obviously this organization has a lot of ability at spotting talent. Zetterberg, Franzen, Datsyuk, Cleary's comeback, all the way back to picking up Draper for a dollar. They are obviously very good at recognizing the potential in players. It's how the organization has stayed competitive in spite of not having good draft positions.

Yet in a rare case when they screw up, like they did with Quincey, it's somehow inconceivable to you that they deserve any of the responsibility for not seeing the player he could become?

Because they're pretty damn good at recognizing the kind of environment a player needs to succeed. But they blew it with Quincey. He wasn't a clear standout in camp, and they somehow thought Meech would develop into a better player than he would. That's a bad decision by a good organization, and it's not all Quincey's fault.

The other point I always come back to w/ Quincey, is that he was a stud in the Ducks series when Schneider went down. Neither Lebda nor Meech, in my opinion, has ever performed at the level Quincy did in those playoffs nor will they ever. So if a player proves he can compete at that level in that situation, then maybe, just maybe, he might be worth a little investment - assuming he isn't over the hill and old. In short, Quincy had an upside that Holland missed and shouldn't have.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

When someone is called out for their leap of logic, they tend to resort to personal attacks. Not surprising.

Let's see, condescending, check. debate team 101, check.

And thank you for proving my point. I think the phrase you're looking for is ad hominem.

If you have three players fighting for two roster spots, who are you going to take?

And if you take the best two players, is that honestly a poor decision? It may not be the correct decision down the road, but that doesn't make it a bad decision.

I also don't credit Holland as some god for getting Franzen, because he was not picked as a player to do what he is doing now. He was picked as a hard-working defensive forward that could chip in on occasion. That's what I give Holland credit for. Picking up a workhorse.

Like I said in the last post Doc, as much you ***** about us not getting over it, you seem to have some weird chip on your shoulder about Quincey. Overstating how poorly he played at camp. Exaggerating the Cup ring thing.

I'm done derailing the GDT. someone can start a thread on Quincey if they want.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

The other point I always come back to w/ Quincey, is that he was a stud in the Ducks series when Schneider went down. Neither Lebda nor Meech, in my opinion, has ever performed at the level Quincy did in those playoffs nor will they ever. So if a player proves he can compete at that level in that situation, then maybe, just maybe, he might be worth a little investment - assuming he isn't over the hill and old. In short, Quincy had an upside that Holland missed and shouldn't have.

That's it in a nutshell.

It's just especially painful to think about now given our injury situation and current defense.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Even if it were true, this is relevant to the discussion how?

It means Holland absolutely made the wrong decision. this is what he and many people in the Wings organization do for a living. Evaluate talent and potential in players. the fact that he picked Meech over Quincey shows he absolutely made the wrong choice. Quincey didn't stand out in camp, but to put all the blame on him is ridiculous.

Holland was the one making the decision, not Quincey, so part of the blame obviously falls on his shoulders. Just like the credit does when he makes the good ones.

Look, I don't want to derail this thread further, but as much as you ***** about us not getting over the Quincey thing, you sure seem to still have some beef with him. A

When a guy is getting peeved for not getting a Stanley Cup ring after playing a whopping six games, you don't think that is going to factor in? The guy who may feel entitled to things? I'm sure it did.

And Holland has to call it how he sees it. In a tryout, you have to pick the guys who are doing the best for your team, and Quincey just didn't do it. He ended up doing well (with a convenient amount of powerplay time) with OTHER teams, and that apparently means that Holland should shoulder the majority of the blame. I seriously disagree with that. Players sometimes need to be responsible for where they end up, and I wholeheartedly agree that Quincey played his way off the team. I don't have some serious problem with the guy. He just didn't show what it took to stay on this team, and if he was still on the roster it is completely plausible that he would be the same guy that lost a roster spot in training camp.

Let's see, condescending, check. debate team 101, check.

And thank you for proving my point. I think the phrase you're looking for is ad hominem.

An ad hominem is an insult used to attack a person's position. I didn't do that. I called you out on being incorrect and subsequently insulting me when you couldn't respond to such. Nothing about that is ad hominem.

Anyways, have fun ignoring me. I'll see you next time you feel the need to ***** that we lost a world-class defenseman in Kyle Quincey.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[stuck in socal 56]

Tough loss to swallow, but next game verse LA is huge.

[gcom007 1,465]

Let me just set the record straight - I don't dislike Rafalski and Lids has been my favorite player since the Yzerman days. But we are in a very different time in the cap era. If teams are to win, they must really look hard at the cost/benefit for any given player within the cap. That just doesn't apply to today, but to next year and the year after that. Look at Anaheim. Scott Neidermayer was the bomb a few short years ago and now is what -13? At what cost? Do you think that might have a little to do with where the ducks are in the standings? All I am saying is that the cap has created a much more rigorous environment in which we should look at players.

Frankly, if I could ditch Rfalskis 6 mil right now I would. And I am guessing if the Wings don't make the playoffs he's outta here if he waves his no-trade.

1) We will make the playoffs and Rafalski, Lidstrom and Kronwall will be in the top 5 defensemen in scoring easy. And no way Rafalski will be gone.

2) Rafalski at $6 million is a far better deal than many other teams got themselves into at that point in time. Would we sign him to that deal today? No, but that's not because Rafalski's any less of a player. Maybe you'd rather have Campbell's Chicago contract or get the epic Finger in Toronto. Bottom line is that every team got caught up in deals like that and every team has suffered. Detroit learned fast what a guys cap value was and since they've been better than most teams at managing that. Things work out in the long-run.

3) Lids won't get $7 million a year in his next deal most likely, but even so, it doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve it. The guy brings so much more to this team than just goals. He'd be worth all the money he makes if he was playing a lot worse.

4) We're losing because we lost a lot of guys in the off-season because Holland f***ed up and then many of our top goal producers have been injured this season. Our defense and goaltending is solid. We just aren't scoring enough. That will change soon.

5) If you ask me, every damn regular Wing that's healthy right now deserves a ******* raise for helping to keep this team afloat through this horrid injury stretch, that after a rough summer and in a league that is far more competitive.

[Miller Brew 0]

If Wings beat Kings and San Jose, it would make this loss okay by me. Getting Cleary or Zetterberg back will be a HUGE boost for the team.

[stuck in socal 56]

If Wings beat Kings and San Jose, it would make this loss okay by me. Getting Cleary or Zetterberg back will be a HUGE boost for the team.

I agree.

[clutchngrab 12]

1) We will make the playoffs and Rafalski, Lidstrom and Kronwall will be in the top 5 defensemen in scoring easy. And no way Rafalski will be gone.

IF we make the playoffs, then I agree. But I am not convinced we will. I'm not sure this team can score enough goals even with everyone back. The reason I say this is that our PP has always been driven by the best defensive point tandem in the league - namely Lids and Rafalski. And we NEED the PP desperately - especially since we have lost 5 on 5 scoring from last year. Maybe things will be better when people are healthy, but I don't know. These guys look old and over the hill right now.

[Bad Vlad Forever 1]

this was one of the most boring, crappy games i've ever seen. wings play two periods of completely uninspired hockey. even the fights sucked, and included the ducks going straight to their backs almost every time.

god awful

on the upside, i was finally able to go to the honda center, and be treated well as a wings fan. nobody told me how much detroit sucked, probably becuase they were aware anaheim is in last place

but seriously, terrible terrible game. datsuyk's hands sucked, and when his stickhandling didn't suck, he was losing the edge on his skate. the only inspired play i saw for the wings tonight is.....you guessed it.....the only guy who plays every night....helm

i take it back a little bit, flip had some great hustle and stickhandling moments. glad to see him back and contributing already after his rehab.

LA and SJ have to be better than this

[gcom007 1,465]

IF we make the playoffs, then I agree. But I am not convinced we will. I'm not sure this team can score enough goals even with everyone back. The reason I say this is that our PP has always been driven by the best defensive point tandem in the league - namely Lids and Rafalski. And we NEED the PP desperately - especially since we have lost 5 on 5 scoring from last year. Maybe things will be better when people are healthy, but I don't know. These guys look old and over the hill right now.

Like I said, when they're not driving it with a bunch of AHL passengers ultimately along for the ride, you might see their numbers and our power play improve a bit...

Again, the fact that we're this close to being in at this point with all we've been through is outstanding. Hell, we thought we'd have problems over the summer losing so many guys. Imagine if people were discussing losing Franzen after game 3 and all the other guys we've lost. If you asked LGW's to theorize over the summer on where this team would be considering all the injuries, surely the Wings would've been sold to Jimmy Blackberry and in Hamilton by now.

[clutchngrab 12]

2) Rafalski at $6 million is a far better deal than many other teams got themselves into at that point in time.

Agreed. But if I could ditch his contract today I would.

3) Lids won't get $7 million a year in his next deal most likely, but even so, it doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve it. The guy brings so much more to this team than just goals. He'd be worth all the money he makes if he was playing a lot worse.

I certainly hope he takes the Yzerman discount...maybe 3-5M for 2 years tops.

4) We're losing because we lost a lot of guys in the off-season because Holland f***ed up...

I think Holland f***ed up some things too, but most of this were not in this off-season. What are you referring to?

If you ask me, every damn regular Wing that's healthy right now deserves a ******* raise for helping to keep this team afloat through this horrid injury stretch, that after a rough summer and in a league that is far more competitive.

I agree that we have had surprisingly good efforts out of lots of folks like Miller, Eaves, Bert, etc. It may not be enough, though.

Edited January 6, 2010 by clutchngrab

[clutchngrab 12]

Like I said, when they're not driving it with a bunch of AHL passengers ultimately along for the ride, you might see their numbers and our power play improve a bit...

Lids and Rafalski usually play on the 1st unit which does not include AHL scrubs.

[ben_usmc 253]

Doc you need to get your mouth off of Hollands manhood and realize that he has f***ed up a few times and it is now costing us.

[Konnan511 1,736]

I look to this thread to see what i missed and I see Quincey come up lol.

Get over it, the guy s*** the bed while he was here. If I play marginal as a sixth D-man in a short period of time, then get sent down and am pissed off and don't play to my full potential and play with a lack of heart and motivation then I hear grumblings of ways to get off this team and the easiest way out is to keep sucking, that's what I'd do, and that's what Quincey did.

Once he got shipped out he started trying cause' his wittle feelings were no longer hurt. Holland made the 100% right decision based on the information he had and the pathetic enthusiasm and hustle of Quincey at that time.

If I pretend to be mediocre and not better than anyone on the roster and then get traded and start trying, my previous GM wasn't wrong on trading me, He was in a lose/lose situation because I was/am a little *****.

Can we please get over this and not have anyone who has no idea what they're talking about just let it go? Or is this going to rage on like the enforcer debate or trading Adam Oates or who we're going to spend or UFA monies on or which Spice Girl was the hottest. Crap happens, don't sit there and smell it, move on.

[Konnan511 1,736]

An ad hominem is an insult used to attack a person's position. I didn't do that. I called you out on being incorrect and subsequently insulting me when you couldn't respond to such. Nothing about that is ad hominem.

Technically it's argument to/against the man. It doesn't HAVE to be an insult. I.e. "You are only saying you don't like Kyle Quincey because Brett Lebda is your brother". That's an ad hominem that isn't insulting (well maybe a little, but you get my point ) And you're wrong, there was an ad hominem in there, when he insulted you .

PS. Still awaiting new cool avatar ideas!

[Miller Brew 0]

Kyle Quincey? Didn't he leave like 12 years ago?

[clutchngrab 12]

I look to this thread to see what i missed and I see Quincey come up lol.

Get over it, the guy s*** the bed while he was here. If I play marginal as a sixth D-man in a short period of time, then get sent down and am pissed off and don't play to my full potential and play with a lack of heart and motivation then I hear grumblings of ways to get off this team and the easiest way out is to keep sucking, that's what I'd do, and that's what Quincey did.

Once he got shipped out he started trying cause' his wittle feelings were no longer hurt. Holland made the 100% right decision based on the information he had and the pathetic enthusiasm and hustle of Quincey at that time.

If I pretend to be mediocre and not better than anyone on the roster and then get traded and start trying, my previous GM wasn't wrong on trading me, He was in a lose/lose situation because I was/am a little *****.

Can we please get over this and not have anyone who has no idea what they're talking about just let it go? Or is this going to rage on like the enforcer debate or trading Adam Oates or who we're going to spend or UFA monies on or which Spice Girl was the hottest. Crap happens, don't sit there and smell it, move on.

He never really s*** the bed here... I'm guessing that his career decisions played as much or more of a role than Holland's love for Meech or Lebda. Players have to look out for themselves, and it worked out for Quincey. And all this would be fine except that Meech is on the PP and Lebda gets lots of minutes and both of them are the same crappy player.

Edited January 6, 2010 by clutchngrab

[Konnan511 1,736]

He never really s*** the bed here... I'm guessing that his career decisions played as much or more of a role than Holland's love for Meech or Lebda. Players have to look out for themselves, and it worked out for Quincey.

That is my whole argument in a nutshell. And I do think he s*** the bed here by not being able to play hard enough to beat out Meech or Lebda. Maybe we have different interpretations of that phrase, but that is what I meant by it.

Go Wings!