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Osgood v Babcock round 2


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#81 Opie

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ January 19, 2010 - 09:46PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well then.

We'd better take down the banners of Sawchuk, Lindsay, Howe, and Abel as Yzerman and Delvecchio are the only guys up there who spent their entire pro careers in Detroit, and are therefore the only 'true' Red Wings.



You are right because what happened before the Ilitches took over and in the 30s is exactly how things happen today! /sarcasm

Are you really that out of it right now that you cannot see how talking about being a Wing post Yzerman has changed, or do you think Howe had the same class as Yzerman and Lids?

Do you really think I was talking about people already in the rafters? But then again Ilitch has set a precedent of ripping numbers down so maybe he should rip those down too? /sarcasm

We are talking about Ozzie, a poster stated that Ozzie was the epitome of what being a Red Wing is, he is not.

"Being a Red Wing" without a doubt is 100% different post Yzerman/Ilitch when people talk about the class of the org, do you jump in and say, oh well the Norris family was not classy when they ditched all of the talent from the cups. No because obviously that is not the topic, things have changed drastically since the Ilitches took over and since Stevie Y joined the team.

When was the last life long Wing to say anything negative about the coaching decisions or personnel decisions?

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#82 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ January 19, 2010 - 04:56PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We are talking about Ozzie, a poster stated that Ozzie was the epitome of what being a Red Wing is, he is not.

Why not? He played for the franchise that drafted him for many years, they more or less got rid of him (not without good reason, but it was not of his doing), and at the first opportunity he got he returned to Detroit and has faithfully served the Winged Wheel ever since, as a starter or back-up. He's been a little lippy this season, and I think it would be behoove him not to try and get any further into the coach's doghouse, but that's neither here nor there. The guy has dedicated virtually his entire adult life to the Detroit Red Wings.
"We've been in the same spot all year long. We won 50 games for the fourth year in a row. People think we're just hum-drum and boring.
No, you know what we are, we're good. You can't do what we do every single day and not be good." - Mike Babcock

#83 eva unit zero

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:02 PM

QUOTE (zettie85 @ January 19, 2010 - 04:42PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Babs is riding the hot goalie. God forbid he takes winning over Ozzie's feelings. He did not start the controversy to piss of Osgood. He didn't start anything. He decided to go with the goalie he had confidence in and who the team played well in front of.


Osgood went down with the flu, but kept playing. After the Toronto game, in which Osgood clearly could no longer play well enough to stay in, Howard took over. In the next three games, Howard gave up a total of 6 goals on 81 shots in 180 minutes played. Solid numbers. Other strong numbers? The Wings scored 19 goals in those three games. Howard has been the starter since that point. Osgood played through the flu, Howard played three games with the 1985 Edmonton Oilers in front of him, and suddenly Babcock didn't trust Osgood in net anymore. Osgood has started six games of a possible 33 since the Toronto game, which he wasn't even healthy for.
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#84 Opie

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:03 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ January 19, 2010 - 09:45PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you are really missing the mark on this one. Profoundly so.


Seriously explain what I missed and if I was that far off I will admit it.

But so I understand you are telling me that Osgood is the one player this decade that most exemplifies what it means to be a wing?

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#85 Opie

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:06 PM

QUOTE (Heroes of Hockeytown @ January 19, 2010 - 10:00PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why not? He played for the franchise that drafted him for many years, they more or less got rid of him (not without good reason, but it was not of his doing), and at the first opportunity he got he returned to Detroit and has faithfully served the Winged Wheel ever since, as a starter or back-up. He's been a little lippy this season, and I think it would be behoove him not to try and get any further into the coach's doghouse, but that's neither here nor there. The guy has dedicated virtually his entire adult life to the Detroit Red Wings.


I am not saying Osgood is not a great Red Wing, one of the greatest netminders to ever don the uni, however in the last decade he pales in comparison to guys like Lids, Datyuk, Zetterberg, Draper, and Maltby in being the one guy who exemplifies what it means to be a Red Wing.

That was my only statement.


"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#86 russianswede919293

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:06 PM

QUOTE (VM1138 @ January 19, 2010 - 01:58PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think Ozzie is upset that he's the backup. None of his comments seem to indicate he believes that he should be a starter. His complaints all revolve aroudn how long between starts. He, like everyone else, feels that Babcock is playing Howard TOO much, and that it allows one of the goalies to get stagnant.

Ozzie is still a team player, he's not upset with Howard from the sounds of it, or jealous. He probably feels he can't keep sharp without the starts and is concerned about his own chances when he does start. He knows he deserves to be the backup but he also feels he should play more than once a month, which I can understand.

He just shouldn't go to the media with it.

I was going to post my thoughts but you already did. This one nails it.

#87 mmamolo

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:07 PM

1. First, I agree Osgood should get more starts. However, he was complaining when he wasn't starting and now that he is he is complaining again. He sounds like he is making excuses for the eventual s***ty game he'll play tonight. Personally I still believe that he can be great for us and I hope he plays well but it certainly sounds like he's conceeding to defeat tonight. He shoudln't care who he plays - here's his chance to show everyone who should be starting game in and game out.

2. Despite how poorly the Wings were playing in front of him he could have made a strong case for himself by playing well in relief against the Islanders. His team certainly didn't help him but that doesnt mean a goal or two that he let in weren't weak. He, just as well as any other goalie in the league, knows you have to make the most of your chances and he didn't do so last week.

3.Earlier in the season when the Wings looked to Osgood to bail them out of some games he didn't. Howard then got some starts and bailed them out at times. Right now Howard has been giving them a better chance to win so he got starts. Despite how poorly the Wings have played in front of Osgood, which certainly hasnt been every time he's been in net, Osgood is the goaltender we should be looking to steal us points from time to time. A soft overtime goal against Dallas a couple of months ago and a disgusting start against the Leafs don't exactly inspire confidence.

4. If Osgood expressed his displeasure outside of the media maybe he'd get more of what he wanted. I really can't understand why he's so upset he's starting tongiht. To me, he should be thrilled. After complaining about not playing now he's complaining about playing the Caps. Clearly Babcock could do no right in deciding who gets the start today. Either he goes with Howard and Osgood says 'of course I'm riding the pine again' or he goes with osgood and Chris says what he said in the media. To me it's ignorant. His job is to play when he's told and to play to the best of his abilities. Despite having earned the right to have the benefit of the doubt in the playoffs his regular season play over the last couple years (give or take) has worked th opposite for him. Right now he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt in the regular season. Based on his play he needs to prove he can be a top tier regualr season goalie. In the playoffs he doesnt need to prove anything.

Finally, all of this is not to say Osgood as sucked. But he certainly hasn't played as well as we all know he is capable of. I believe in the guy and would like nothign more than to have him dominate tonight...which hopefully is in the cards. I'd liek to believe this is when Osgood does his best; when everyone doubts him. Prove them wrong and then we'll really have a problem ppl would love to have - two dominate starting goaltenders.

QUOTE (interminded @ January 19, 2010 - 04:21PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sir, if there has been ONE SINGLE PLAYER (beside Steve Yzerman) the last decade who could be named a true Red Wing and a teamplayer it's Chris Osgood.
Everybody knows that.

Don't trash the guy for one single comment which is very likely completely been taken out of context.


Not to take anything away from the amazing contributions Osgood has made to this organization but to single him out as the ONE SINGLE PLAYER abvoe Lidstrom is absurd. Lidstrom is the ultimate professional and team player. On top of that he is maybe the greatest defenseman to have ever played this game. He gives this team a chance to win every time he is in the line up and puts his team above himself at all costs.

Edited by mmamolo, 19 January 2010 - 05:08 PM.

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#88 Nev

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:10 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ January 19, 2010 - 08:28PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe Babs sees this as motivator for Ozzie, he has needed those recently in the regular season. An angry Ozzie goes out and plays out of his mind, do you honestly think Babs doesn't give him another shot.



This is what I think Babs is doing. Trying to get Ozzie so mad he goes out there with an "I'll show that mother***er" attitude.



That, and punishing him for saying he knew more about goaltending than Babcock.
"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#89 Opie

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ January 19, 2010 - 10:02PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Osgood went down with the flu, but kept playing. After the Toronto game, in which Osgood clearly could no longer play well enough to stay in, Howard took over. In the next three games, Howard gave up a total of 6 goals on 81 shots in 180 minutes played. Solid numbers. Other strong numbers? The Wings scored 19 goals in those three games. Howard has been the starter since that point. Osgood played through the flu, Howard played three games with the 1985 Edmonton Oilers in front of him, and suddenly Babcock didn't trust Osgood in net anymore. Osgood has started six games of a possible 33 since the Toronto game, which he wasn't even healthy for.


hahahahahaha are you serious with this post!

At no point in time, À aucun moment dans le temps, Zu keinem Zeitpunkt, En ningún momento en el tiempo did the wings resemble anything that looked like the 85 Oiler's Jock! And your next post will be a series of comparative stats you made up to compare two eras that are virtually impossible to compare!

I ask all of you conspiracy theorist including you Eva, when and where has Babs said anything negative about Ozzie. If babs saying "Howard gives us a better chance to win" hits your tinfoil hat and you hear, "I don't trust Ozzie" you need to have your posting privileges revoked.

Mind you I am some one who is a huge fan of J-Ho! However; imo this team goes no where without Ozzie in the post season. Problem being Babs needs to get them to the post season first. And he needs Ozzie to be hot going in to the playoffs.

I love your excuses though, Ozzie had the flu and you make it seem like he fell on his sword by playing through it, then when Howard has similar success, it is because the team is the 85 Oilers.

You used to be a poster I respected, when I first came on here I learned a lot from you (and others) about the game, now you just spout off and throw your own skewed impartial stats around like they are in the Guinness book of records.

Edited by Opie, 19 January 2010 - 05:16 PM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#90 gcom007

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:16 PM

Where did he complain about starting? Maybe I missed that. There's a difference between complaining and pointing out some "interesting tidbits" revolving around the situation. And when you consider the idea that what Osgood's saying might actually be what's best for the team, in not letting any one guy get rusty on the bench for a month, is it really such a horrible thing? Again, Osgood's not pissing about being the starter or about Howard at all. He's saying the length between starts is ridiculous. As countless people have said it, and based on what we've seen in the past, I think it's fair to say that he's probably right.

-Elliot


#91 Theophany

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:18 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ January 19, 2010 - 02:03PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously explain what I missed and if I was that far off I will admit it.

But so I understand you are telling me that Osgood is the one player this decade that most exemplifies what it means to be a wing?

If anyone argues that Ozzie is the player that most exemplifies being a Wing in the Illitch era, they're probably an idiot, especially with a guy like Lidstrom—or hell, even Draper—around.

#92 gcom007

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ January 19, 2010 - 05:15PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
hahahahahaha are you serious with this post!

At no point in time, �€ aucun moment dans le temps, Zu keinem Zeitpunkt, En ningún momento en el tiempo did the wings resemble anything that looked like the 85 Oiler's Jock! And your next post will be a series of comparative stats you made up to compare two eras that are virtually impossible to compare!

I ask all of you conspiracy theorist including you Eva, when and where has Babs said anything negative about Ozzie. If babs saying "Howard gives us a better chance to win" hits your tinfoil hat and you hear, "I don't trust Ozzie" you need to have your posting privileges revoked.

Mind you I am some one who is a huge fan of J-Ho! However; imo this team goes no where without Ozzie in the post season. Problem being Babs needs to get them to the post season first. And he needs Ozzie to be hot going in to the playoffs.

I love your excuses though, Ozzie had the flu and you make it seem like he fell on his sword by playing through it, then when Howard has similar success, it is because the team is the 85 Oilers.

You used to be a poster I respected, when I first came on here I learned a lot from you (and others) about the game, now you just spout off and throw your own skewed impartial stats around like they are in the Guinness book of records.


I think the '85 Oilers comment is over the top as well, but Osgood was playing well in the games leading up to the Toronto game. He had a rough start and followed it up with some great efforts. No one at the time blamed him for the Toronto massacre as the team in front was TERRIBLE that night in addition to illnesses involved. Not even LGW's was pissed at Osgood that night. Dig up the GDT.

-Elliot


#93 mmamolo

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:21 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ January 19, 2010 - 05:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Where did he complain about starting? Maybe I missed that. There's a difference between complaining and pointing out some "interesting tidbits" revolving around the situation. And when you consider the idea that what Osgood's saying might actually be what's best for the team, in not letting any one guy get rusty on the bench for a month, is it really such a horrible thing? Again, Osgood's not pissing about being the starter or about Howard at all. He's saying the length between starts is ridiculous. As countless people have said it, and based on what we've seen in the past, I think it's fair to say that he's probably right.


That's true and he's right about having any one guy sit too long. Problem is points are at a premium right now and we need everythign we can get. If Howard gives us the better chance to win and is the hot guy right now you gotta ride him. Really splitting time between goalies is only really a luxury the top teams in the league have and that's not us right now.

Although I udnerstand what Osgood was saying, I dont think it needed to be said in the media. Best thing Osgood could do would have been just embrace the opportunity and prove all of his nay sayers wrong.
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#94 mmamolo

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:24 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ January 19, 2010 - 05:19PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the '85 Oilers comment is over the top as well, but Osgood was playing well in the games leading up to the Toronto game. He had a rough start and followed it up with some great efforts. No one at the time blamed him for the Toronto massacre as the team in front was TERRIBLE that night in addition to illnesses involved. Not even LGW's was pissed at Osgood that night. Dig up the GDT.


I'd agree with this statement. I think the problem is Osgood is being held to a higher standard - and so he should be. We need him to step in and steal games. The more he does that the more he'd play. Had he stolen that game against Chicago a while ago, where he let in 2 soft goals (some may say only 1), I think we'd have seen him a lot more.

Someone mentioned how the soft goals deflate this team and unfortunately Osgood has real bad timing for soft goals. WIth it being as tough to score as it is right now for us we cant have goals that our players feel are soft going in.

Whether you think some of the goals Howard lets in are soft or not it doesnt really matter because for the most part the Wings seem to respond well after Howard lets in a goal while they don't respond so well when Osgood does. Maybe they just expect more from him
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#95 Opie

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:25 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ January 19, 2010 - 10:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Where did he complain about starting? Maybe I missed that. There's a difference between complaining and pointing out some "interesting tidbits" revolving around the situation. And when you consider the idea that what Osgood's saying might actually be what's best for the team, in not letting any one guy get rusty on the bench for a month, is it really such a horrible thing? Again, Osgood's not pissing about being the starter or about Howard at all. He's saying the length between starts is ridiculous. As countless people have said it, and based on what we've seen in the past, I think it's fair to say that he's probably right.



This team is fighting for the playoffs, what in the hell good would risk losing a few games do, if you are risking it so Ozzie will be ready for a post season he may miss?

Do I think if this team was in first or top 4 that the theory babs is using now is risky and stupid, YES!. But he can't plan for the playoffs, or next month, he has to make a roster to get points each and every game, he has to go with what gives him the best chance at points, he sees these two every day, practice, games, morning skates, hotels, planes and even eats with them. You mean to tell me that you think anyone's guess work on here (mine included) is remotely close to what Babs knows and sees. You don't think he would see Jimmy get tired?

Babs is in a no win situation, if he plays Howard and they miss the playoffs he gets criticized big time, he plays Howard they make the playoffs he snubbed his Vet, if he plays Ozzie and they miss the playoffs he should have stayed with the hot rookie, he plays Ozzie and they make the playoffs is the only win. So I was wrong there is one win.

There will always be the group on here that makes a goalie debate when there isn't one, why is it so hard to notice that Babs theory has the team fighting for the playoffs, not missing it, not well into, but in the heat of the playoffs.

With this roster, I am very happy to be there, and the fact a rookie netminder has shouldered most of the burden is great. And is not very different from Ozzie's own past and he should respect that and the team and shut up and play well.

Either ***** when you don't start and then perform when you do start or don't *****. Don't ***** when you are sitting and then when you are starting!

Edited by Opie, 19 January 2010 - 05:32 PM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#96 Branton87

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:29 PM

I've always been an Osgood fan, but I don't believe he's handling this situation very well.


I wish this cereal I have wasn't expired.

#97 gcom007

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:37 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ January 19, 2010 - 05:03PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously explain what I missed and if I was that far off I will admit it.

But so I understand you are telling me that Osgood is the one player this decade that most exemplifies what it means to be a wing?


From the last 20 years, who are the guys who I'd say have been defining Red Wings? Yzerman, Lidstrom, Draper and Osgood. Zetterberg and Dats are on their way. There are other noteworthy guys as well, but we'll skip them for now.

Who of those players had to deal with being shipped away from the team they loved?

Only Osgood and Yzerman. Yzerman never ended up leaving, but Osgood actually got the boot.

Who came back at first opportunity though?

Osgood.

Who's done everything asked of him and played into the system throughout his career?

Osgood.

Who won a Cup for us after an All-Star season after starting the playoffs on the bench?

Osgood.

And who stood in the hot sun for 3 hours after the rest of the team retreated to Cheli's on Parade Day signing autographs and taking pictures with fans?

Osgood.

And who's had to put up with more s*** than all of them combined from fans, the media and coaches?

Osgood.

Who's still here, fighting for this team and playing into the system?

Osgood.

He may be questioning things lately, but I don't think anything he's saying is outrageous either. I think he's frustrated and I think ultimately he's been fairly accurate in his assessment. I won't say that I think it's the best idea discussing it with the media, but at the same time, we don't know how the questions or quotes were framed. We don't know the context. We know how someone edited in a paper. Osgood is a fierce competitor and he wants to play. The guy is 4 games away from 400! Can you imagine how that must be eating away at him throughout this whole mess?

So if you think it's fair to put him out as a Red Wing up there with the likes of Yzerman and Lidstrom because of a few quotes in a paper, I think you're way off the mark. I don't really expect you and so many others to get it now, sad as it may be, but I fully expect most of you to realize how important Osgood has been to this team a few years after he retires. I have absolutely no doubt of that in my mind.

"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got till it's gone...
They paved paradise and put up a parkin' lot..."

-Joni Mitchell

Some things never change.

-Elliot


#98 Carman

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:40 PM

If Osgood wants the best for the team he will play well and be quiet.

#99 TheDetroitRedWings

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:42 PM

QUOTE (Carman @ January 19, 2010 - 05:40PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Osgood wants the best for the team he will play well and be quiet.



Exactly.

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#100 egroen

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:42 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ January 19, 2010 - 04:56PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When was the last life long Wing to say anything negative about the coaching decisions or personnel decisions?

Actually, Yzerman (rightly) publicly questioned some of those trades early in his captaincy, like Oates and MacLean for Federko and McKegney.
Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."





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