The all-time all-NHL team

[Guest blueadams]

So, I'm watching ESPN last night, Jalen Rose and Matthew Barnaby are on, and they're showing the top 10 all-time plays by Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Alex Ovechkin and Sidney Crosby. It's kind of stupid that Crosby's being included, but still, pretty cool to see NHL stars being put on the same plane as NBA stars on ESPN, right!? Then I hear it. Jalen Rose, in reference to Ovie and Crosby, "Those two have a chance to become the greatest players of all-time in their sport." This infuriates me - that someone this stupid is allowed to talk about hockey on television, and worse, that some idiots out there watching are going to believe him. This prompted me to put together an all-time all-NHL team, in order to get a better understanding if Ovie even garnered consideration as one of the best twelve or thirteen forwards of all time. Below is the roster I came up with. Obviously, I've never seen a lot of these guys, and their inclusion is based on legend, what I've read about them, and what I've seen of them on ESPN Classic, youtube, etc. But in the end, there were really only three modern day players that even garnered consideration - Lidstrom, Broduer and Ovechkin. Still, I couldn't convince myself to include them. Hopefully this sets up a fun debate for the board!

M. Lemieux-W. Gretzky-G. Howe

Bo. Hull-J. Béliveau-M. Richard

H. Morenz-M. Messier-G. Lafleur

P. Esposito-S. Mikita-M. Bossy

T. Lindsay

B. Orr-D. Harvey

R. Bourque-E. Shore

D. Potvin-R. Kelly

L. Robinson

T. Sawchuck

J. Plante

G. Hall

[Guest Lidstromboli]

lol

[Guest Howard He Do It?!]

Then I hear it. Jalen Rose, in reference to Ovie and Crosby, "Those two have a chance to become the greatest players of all-time in their sport." This infuriates me...

Why is it so inconceivable that one of them could become an all time great?

Edited January 22, 2010 by Howard He Do It?!

[dat's sick 1,002]

Why is it so inconceivable that one of them could become an all time great?

It really isn't. Especially Ovechkin, who unless he starts getting in more injury trouble will probably go down as one of the best goalscorers in NHL history.

[Guest blueadams]

Why is it so inconceivable that one of them could become an all time great?

He didn't say "an" all time great. He said "the" all time great. I guess he hadn't heard of the game before the 90's.

[Guest Howard He Do It?!]

He didn't say "an" all time great. He said "the" all time great. I guess he hadn't heard of the game before the 90's.

Setting aside the difference between what article was used, both Crosby and Ovie have the chance to be all time greats.

[Lidstrom for life 20]

Lidstrom is easily one of the top 7 of all time. 6 Norris trophies gets you in the top 7.

[Guest Howard He Do It?!]

Lidstrom is easily one of the top 7 of all time. 6 Norris trophies gets you in the top 7.

Not to mention 4 Cups.

[Guest blueadams]

Lidstrom is easily one of the top 7 of all time. 6 Norris trophies gets you in the top 7.

...who does he replace? and where would you rate him?

p.s. - I hate using trophies as a reference. The Norris trophy wasn't given out until 1954. The Vezina trophy used to be given out differently. And besides, being the best one year doesn't make you better than the second best in another.

Hart Trophies:

Gretzky - 9

Howe - 6

Lemieux/Clarke/Morenz - 3

Ovechkin/Messier/Lafleur/Esposito/Mikita/Bo. Hull/Beliveau/Cowley/Stewart - 2

Norris Trophies:

Orr - 8

Harvey - 7

Lidstrom - 6

Bourque - 5

Chelios/Coffey/Potvin/Pilote - 3

Vezina Trophies:

Plante - 7

Hasek/Durnan - 6

Edited January 22, 2010 by blueadams

[Finnish Wing 110]

Jari Kurri?

Gretzky never won the Cup without Kurri, but Kurri did it without Gretzky.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[mmamolo 287]

These types of discussions are always tricky because we're trying to make comparisons in different ages of the game. That being said everyone has their biases. Some ppl tend to lean towards the legendary players, whom we never saw play, to pay respect and because they envision pure dominance in their games. While others tend to favor players from the modern era because we can identify with them, we saw them play and have more of an emotional investment in these guys. Which ever way you lean the comparison is always tough.

In a lot of ways stats go out the window when drawing a comparison between players of different eras. The game worked differently and has since advanced in a direction that may not have been so easy to predict years ago.

To me it all comes down to how players dominate their sport when they play. Growing up I remember seeing Terry Sawchuck's shutout record and thinking that was a record no one would even come close to touching. In today's game to have Martin Brodeur surpass that record I think it an unbelieveable achievement. To me Sawchuck's record was akin to Gretzky's scoring record. But that's my personal bias and because of it in my mind I don't see how Brodeur can't be on this team.

Also, in my opinion Lidstrom and Orr were the two greatest d-men to ever play and there's no way I wouldn't put Lidstrom on this list either. Ovechkin still has a lot to prove, but really is heading in the right direction, but for me (and Im a huge Ovechkin fan) to put him on this list would be premature.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Of the last 30 years:

Luc Robitaille (1992) - Wayne Gretzky (1982) - Brett Hull (1991)

John Leclaire (1996) - Mario Lemieux (1988) - Jarri Kurri (1986)

Vincent Damphousse (1994) - Mark Messier (1986) - Jaromir Jagr (1995)

Kirk Muller (1987) - Steve Yzerman (1989) - Mike Bossy (1981)

Paul Coffey (1984) - Ray Bourque (1990)

Nicklas Lidstrom (2001) - Vladimir Konstantinov (1996)

Chris Pronger (2000) - Brian Leetch (1992)

Patrick Roy (1988)

Dominik Hasek (1997)

Head Coach - Scotty Bowman

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Lemieux - Gretzky - Howe

Hull - Messier - Richard

Morenz - Esposito - Lafleur

Sakic - Yzerman - Beliveau

Orr - Harvey

Lidstrom - Bourque

Potvin - Shore

Roy

Hasek

[Echolalia 2,961]

The 2002 Red Wings

[egroen 384]

...who does he replace? and where would you rate him?

p.s. - I hate using trophies as a reference. The Norris trophy wasn't given out until 1954. The Vezina trophy used to be given out differently. And besides, being the best one year doesn't make you better than the second best in another.

Hart Trophies:

Gretzky - 9

Howe - 6

Lemieux/Clarke/Morenz - 3

Ovechkin/Messier/Lafleur/Esposito/Mikita/Bo. Hull/Beliveau/Cowley/Stewart - 2

Hasek has 2 as well.

[egroen 384]

Lemieux - Gretzky - Howe

Hull - Messier - Richard

Morenz - Esposito - Lafleur

Sakic - Yzerman - Beliveau

Orr - Harvey

Lidstrom - Bourque

Potvin - Shore

Roy

Hasek

Great team!

I'd replace Messier with Mikita.

[eva unit zero 271]

Alexander Ovechkin is now in goal scoring territory that only Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bossy reached (250+ in their first five seasons) and Ovechkin still has half a season to go, plus he's done it in a much lower scoring league. Ovechkin has been the best player at his position since his first shift in the league four and a half years ago. It's not hard to argue he could be considered one of the elite all-time players. I would rank him top-three among LWs right now without a second thought, and I would say that Lindsay and Hull should be looking over their shoulder if he keeps up his amazing play and utter dominance.

Offhand, this would be my all-time NHL team. With more time to think I might make some alterations, but I have to go back to work shortly.

Gordie Howe

Wayne Gretzky

Mario Lemieux

Steve Yzerman

Ted Lindsay

Bobby Hull

Jean Beliveau

Guy Lafleur

Maurice Richard

Mike Bossy

Phil Esposito

Stan Mikita

Joe Malone

Bobby Orr

Nicklas Lidstrom

Ray Bourque

Doug Harvey

Cyclone Taylor

Slava Fetisov

Eddie Shore

Terry Sawchuk

Vladislav Tretiak

As for a 1st team and 2nd team of the best individual seasons of the past 30 years (no player repeats):

1st team:

C: Steve Yzerman, 1988-89

LW: Alexander Ovechkin, 2007-08

RW: Brett Hull, 1990-91

D: Vladimir Konstantinov, 1995-96

D: Nicklas Lidstrom, 2007-08

G: Dominik Hasek, 1998-99

2nd team:

C: Mario Lemieux, 1992-93

LW: Luc Robitaille, 1992-93

RW: Teemu Selanne, 1992-93

D: Raymond Bourque, 1990-91

D: Brian Leetch, 1993-94

G: Martin Brodeur, 1996-97

EDIT: Defensemen updated.

Edited January 23, 2010 by eva unit zero

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Great team!

I'd replace Messier with Mikita.

I've never been a Messier fan, but what exactly would make Mikita better than him?

Messier was a great scorer, great leader, two-way center, physical guy that could drop the gloves, had great longevity, and was one of the most clutch players in league history.

I actually think he's a little overrated, but still one of the top 10 players ever and certainly belongs on any all-time team.

[egroen 384]

I've never been a Messier fan, but what exactly would make Mikita better than him?

Messier was a great scorer, great leader, two-way center, physical guy that could drop the gloves, had great longevity, and was one of the most clutch players in league history.

I actually think he's a little overrated, but still one of the top 10 players ever and certainly belongs on any all-time team.

At their peaks, Mikita was stronger offensively and defensively -- and was a physical player as well.

Mikta even had a long, good career, so Messier doesn't exactly kill him there.

Both were playoff beasts as well.

(I actually think Top 10, even Top 20 is overrating Messier)

Edited January 23, 2010 by egroen

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

At their peaks, Mikita was stronger offensively and defensively -- and was a physical player as well.

Mikta even had a long, good career, so Messier doesn't exactly kill him there.

Both were playoff beasts as well.

(I actually think Top 10, even Top 20 is overrating Messier)

I don't think many people would agree with you, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Messier certainly fed off the team he was playing on, but he was a great player in his own right. I'd take him over Mikita if I was starting a team.

[sibiriak 84]

Not to rain on the OP's parade, but if we had a time machine, the 2010 TB Lightning would wipe the floor (the ice maybe) with the 1960s Canadiens and probably 1980s Oilers. When I watch the old games, I am always struck by how slow (relatively) the players seem and how much time and space they enjoy. Compared to the modern NHL, they play in slow motion.

So the best All-NHL All-time team IMHO should be composed of 95% current players with perhaps some more recent superstars included, such as M.Lemieux, Gretzky Hasek, Jagr. Certainly not Gordie Howe or Bobby Hull et al. If they were born now, with modern training and nutrition, plus their natural talent, they'd been huge. But they didn't and so they shouldn't be on the "All-NHL All-time" team.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

[Guest blueadams]

Not to rain on the OP's parade, but if we had a time machine, the 2010 TB Lightning would wipe the floor (the ice maybe) with the 1960s Canadiens and probably 1980s Oilers. When I watch the old games, I am always struck by how slow (relatively) the players seem and how much time and space they enjoy. Compared to the modern NHL, they play in slow motion.

So the best All-NHL All-time team IMHO should be composed of 95% current players with perhaps some more recent superstars included, such as M.Lemieux, Gretzky Hasek, Jagr. Certainly not Gordie Howe or Bobby Hull et al. If they were born now, with modern training and nutrition, plus their natural talent, they'd been huge. But they didn't and so they shouldn't be on the "All-NHL All-time" team.

ugh.

...look...imo...part of adjusting for different eras is adjusting for different science, and training methods. when i look at a guy like gordie howe, im thinking, how good would a guy with that kind of hand-eye coordination be with modern day training and diet!? a hell of a lot better than ovechkin.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

I can't believe that Brodeur isn't getting much mention here.

587 Wins 108 Shut Outs .914 Save % 2.21GAA

I am as biased towards Sawchuck as any Red Wings fan should be, but Martin is great.

Edited January 23, 2010 by LIDDYGIBBY5

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

I can't believe that Brodeur isn't getting much mention here.

587 Wins 108 Shut Outs .914 Save % 2.21GAA

I am as biased towards Sawchuck as any Red Wings fan should be, but Martin is great.

Understandable, but would you rather have a Marty Brodeur in his prime or Patrick Roy/Dominik Hasek in their primes?