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Howard the rest of the way


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#41 kook_10

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:25 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ January 27, 2010 - 11:07PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Again, Babcock will rip into Osgood without flinching and he said more to defend Osgood than anything. I suppose that means nothing too? Again, I'm not saying Osgood played great, but he didn't lose this game for us by any means, and if you go back and watch those replays, there's a lot of good goals there that in Babcock's words "no goalie has a chance on" and a lot of terrible defensive breakdowns.


I'm not hanging the loss on Ozzie nor am I looking to string him up, then team skated like s*** and no goalie would have bailed them out of this one. Without a doubt they had a ton of defensive zone lapses and gave up way too many power plays. The rest of the team's play notwithstanding, Ozzie looked bad too. I wouldn't rule out that it could have something to do his lack of starts, but that wouldn't change the fact that he was on his knees early all night and his lateral movement was awful. Yes Howard has lost recently too, but he looks more confident and fundamentally sound. Ozzie has given the team nothing to rally around all year, Howard has. This team needs something and someone to rally around and Howard, if anybody, has been that guy. If Dats and Z were carrying more of the load I'd say the spark in goal would be less important but that's not the case.

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#42 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:26 PM

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, ok, well any time anyone f***s up in life let's just call it a flip, knee jerk reaction. That seems to make it excusable.

No, fact remains, it's hypocritical. His good saves are amazing but his goals against are purely because he's rusty.

Doesn't make sense.


Because nobody says that with other goaltenders. Nobody rips on Howard for doing badly or praises him immensly for doing well.

That NEEEVERRR happens.

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I mean early in the season in general. He played like s***. I know you're the local argue-holic but do you really want to start a pissing contest over something everyone knows?


You have it backwards. Osgood played well early in the season while Howard did not.

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, recently. What about before? Because recently isn't something that will continue in 'til April if you catch my drift.


Well since you are talking about having Howard continue to start NOW I would assume that NOW would be more important. Right NOW the Wings are playing terribly and the goaltenders are caught between the pipes as the rest of the team collapses around them.

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're confused. You're looking at the outcome, not the play of the goaltender. Howard makes huge stops that Ozzie would let in. 3 games doesn't erase the season he's had so far and he gives us a better chance to win.


3 games? Have you seen the last six games? Do you think this is just some short phase they are going to get over?

RIGHT NOW they are playing bad so RIGHT NOW it makes almost no difference who they put in net. Put Howard in and see if the defense does any better. If not then put Osgood in.

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Defensive lapses are going to happen in every single hockey game ever played. Sorry, but your goalie needs to make a few of those saves. Again, that tipped shot would've been stopped by cutting off the angle a little more.


First time I've seen a redirected shot blamed on the goaltender. Congrats.

Did Osgood not stop any odd man rushses?

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And avoiding the entire point after it? Must be that "content" you go on to speak so highly of rolleyes.gif


All you did was list assertions. I can do that to but it won't go anywhere for us to just continue doing that now will it?

I could go on an on about how Howard couldn't keep a rebound in if his life depended on it but that (like a large amount of your opinions of Osgood) is a gross exaggeration of the facts.

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The goaltending is not irrelevant. It is if you just look at the box score. If Howard doesn't make a small handful of great saves per game on chances Ozzie would s*** himself over, we don't even get the 1 point we've gotten most of the time.


I'm sure we don't. Don't mind the fact Howard let in five goals against the Coyotes. Or is it only relevant on certain occasions?

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#43 Z and D for the C

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:27 PM

I'd just give Osgood some consecutive starts because we're probably going to lose anyway.

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#44 blankrap

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:29 PM

I love me some osgood. Howard the rest of the way? Laughable. When ozzy was hot in the playoffs we didn't have any lynch osgood threads.

#45 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ January 27, 2010 - 11:27PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd just give Osgood some consecutive starts because we're probably going to lose anyway.


Why not switch between the two?

One of them is going to click eventually and so is the defense. At least we hope so.

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#46 DatsyukianDeke13

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:29 PM

So neither Doc Holliday or Zak Morris will accept the invitation to the winner take all duel, eh? Your no daisies at all.
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#47 Lovin Jiri Fischer

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:31 PM

QUOTE (blankrap @ January 27, 2010 - 11:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I love me some osgood. Howard the rest of the way? Laughable. When ozzy was hot in the playoffs we didn't have any lynch osgood threads.



Because he could stop a puck back then.

#48 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE (DatsyukianDeke13 @ January 27, 2010 - 11:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So neither Doc Holliday or Zak Morris will accept the invitation to the winner take all duel, eh? Your no daisies at all.


Pardon me for spitting out blood and being so high-strung.

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#49 zackmorris

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:33 PM

QUOTE (Doc Holliday @ January 27, 2010 - 11:26PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because nobody says that with other goaltenders. Nobody rips on Howard for doing badly or praises him immensly for doing well.

That NEEEVERRR happens.

If you think it's the same with other goalies, namely Howard, you're high. Ozzie has a cemented, die-hard fanbase here.



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You have it backwards. Osgood played well early in the season while Howard did not.

Yeah? Show me the consistent period where Osgood did anything worth noting.


QUOTE
Well since you are talking about having Howard continue to start NOW I would assume that NOW would be more important. Right NOW the Wings are playing terribly and the goaltenders are caught between the pipes as the rest of the team collapses around them.

Like I said before, Howard's goals against look a hell of alot better than Osgood's. Teams actually have to earn goals on him, rather than just passing a little because Ozzie either will go down too early or has the lateral movement of a crippled JS Giguere


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3 games? Have you seen the last six games? Do you think this is just some short phase they are going to get over?

Yes. Such is sports.

QUOTE
RIGHT NOW they are playing bad so RIGHT NOW it makes almost no difference who they put in net. Put Howard in and see if the defense does any better. If not then put Osgood in.

This is so foolish. There can still be a goalie who gives us a better chance to win regardless of the outcome in the past. Howard is more confident in the net and plays better. This is so obvious I can't believe you don't see it.



QUOTE
First time I've seen a redirected shot blamed on the goaltender. Congrats.

Thank you, thank you, I only call it exactly how it is. Move out a little and it hits him in the upper body and we don't spend more than 4 seconds thinking about it.

QUOTE
Did Osgood not stop any odd man rushses?

He also didn't stop much else. Point is there were a few instances where he could've made a big save and kept us in it. He didn't. He hasn't before very much either. That's the problem.


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All you did was list assertions. I can do that to but it won't go anywhere for us to just continue doing that now will it?

Nice excuse. Dodge a little more buddy.

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I could go on an on about how Howard couldn't keep a rebound in if his life depended on it but that (like a large amount of your opinions of Osgood) is a gross exaggeration of the facts.

No, I'm brutally honest. You just don't like it, so you're going to call my opinions exaggerated because you're argumentative. You're not exactly pointing out which ones, either. His save attempts are pitiful, as he just sticks his chest out while getting into a quick butterfly stance, he's not really reacting to shots like he used to.


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I'm sure we don't. Don't mind the fact Howard let in five goals against the Coyotes. Or is it only relevant on certain occasions?

Like I said before, Howard can let in 5 and still look better. He's nto just flailing at the shot hoping it hits him.

Edited by zackmorris, 27 January 2010 - 11:36 PM.


#50 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:36 PM

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:33PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like I said before, Howard can let in 5 and still look better. He's nto just flailing at the shot hoping it hits him.


laugh.gif

Howard didn't flail? Oh boy are you a strange character.

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#51 Z and D for the C

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:37 PM

QUOTE (Doc Holliday @ January 27, 2010 - 11:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why not switch between the two?

One of them is going to click eventually and so is the defense. At least we hope so.


Eventually that'd be fine, but I'm just saying give Osgood the next two starts. While I to tend to think that Howard gives us a better shot at winning (even if only slightly), you're completely right, goaltending isn't going to change the game for us. Phoenix would have beat us with Osgood in net and Minnesota would have beat us if Howard was in tonight.

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#52 zackmorris

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:37 PM

QUOTE (Doc Holliday @ January 27, 2010 - 11:36PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
laugh.gif

Howard didn't flail? Oh boy are you a strange character.

Get real, Howard reacts to shots. When he doesn't, that's when I'll say he doesn't. It's ok to not know anything about goaltending Doc, almost no one here does.

Edited by zackmorris, 27 January 2010 - 11:38 PM.


#53 blankrap

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:38 PM

Watching these boards is like playing poker with my brothers kids... Nerve racking sons a *******.

#54 king_malice

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:41 PM

regardless rust or whatever you want to call it osgood just doesnt have what it takes to be number 1 anymore. for the past 2 seasons now we have heard all the excuses from osgood it's rust ,not in shape and what not. you've been in the league how long and you can't shake rust after 1or 2 games and you don't know what it takes to get in shape for a season?. come on, i like osgood he was awsome for us in the past but everyone can see he's just to slow up and down and side to side. i don't know i just dont see the passion when he's in the net. i personally think howard has played worthy of the starting role

#55 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:41 PM

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:37PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Get real, Howard reacts to shots. When he doesn't, that's when I'll say he doesn't. It's ok to not know anything about goaltending Doc, almost no one here does.


Flailing is a reaction.

Do you think Osgood has tourrettes or something? He just flails regardless of what is going on?

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#56 gcom007

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:44 PM

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:23PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't care about the numbers as much as some people. It's the fact that Ozzie's f*** ups look a hell of alot worse than Howard's. Howard can let in 5 and I still feel more confident with him in there. Ozzie looks at any moment like he may give up an easy whiffer backbreaking goal.


The team didn't play well tonight but I'm looking at Osgood on the whole-all season. What the f*** has he done to earn anything from anyone? Tonight was another joke, and sorry but he looked like he was going to f*** up and let in 3 more that luckily hit him.


This is a thread about our goaltending. I'm talking about our goalie. Who can't make a huge save to save his life. But we don't really expect that, do we? I see Howard doing it. But we don't think about it when he does, more specifically, we don't think about what might have been if he didn't. He does that quite a bit. We're just too happy to think about it. Ozzie doesn't do that-he doesn't make big saves anymore.

This is mroe about what I see with my eyes and ultimately I almost always end up right about these things in the end, because I don't let bias into my thoughts on a player-Ozzie is shaky in the net and looks like he doesn't have the quickness to react to a shot anymore. Howard does.

This happens on every sports forum. Every player has a fan base of a certain size who will defend him to the death in spite of any bad performance. It's always everyone elses fault. Even when that player is sent f***in packing.


Quite frankly, I think you're way off the mark with your early season analysis. Even in some of those losses, Osgood played great. Go back to the replays, the GDT's, the articles. Osgood certainly had some stinker games (not Toronto though, team was hell and he was sick) but he had a lot of real solid games as well and even great games. I remember two losses in particular in October where the consensus was that Osgood was the only reason we didn't get blown out.

I'll tell you flat-out, the tides turned for Osgood when Howard got hot, plain and simple. Osgood never played as bad as Howard simply played great for awhile. Suddenly Osgood is "terrible" and in the process, he starts getting minimal starts and collecting rust and ends up not having the greatest games when he actually gets a start. This just adds fuel to the fire that Osgood sucks and suddenly it morphs not only into Osgood sucking lately, but Osgood sucking all season and not being a regular season goalie.

Of course, the whole argument is based on one season, and no one in their right mind (probably not even you!) was suggesting that Osgood was playing even remotely like last season until Howard got hot. He had that stinker game against Buffalo I believe, but followed it up with a shut out and two games with .950+ save percentages. Then he got sick and Toronto happened and he hasn't gotten a chance or a break from anyone since.

Again, I think you're really forgetting how absolutely horrible this entire team was in October. The defense looked worse than they have the last few games every game that month. And again, even in some of the losses, Osgood was considered a bright spot. The whole "Osgood can't win in the regular season" only picked up steam again after Howard got rolling. You are forgetting the facts if you think otherwise.
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#57 gcom007

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:58 PM

QUOTE (zackmorris @ January 27, 2010 - 11:33PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like I said before, Howard can let in 5 and still look better. He's nto just flailing at the shot hoping it hits him.


I gotta go at this too. Now bear in mind, not once have I blamed Howard or dogged Howard about last nights loss and I am really as much of a fan of Howard as I am of Osgood at the end of the day. I was at the game, so I think I have a decent perspective on the matter as well, and I find it hilarious that you mention the flailing as Howard was flailing and flopping all over last night. We were cracking up and comparing it to the days of Hasek as were other people in the section. He knows how to stop the puck no doubt, but it's oftentimes not real pretty. He didn't face a ton of chances or pressure and rarely was called on to make big saves, but he still gave up two goals. By the end though, really, with two minutes left, it's not like it mattered as it was just two goals and we were on our way to a win. Then he gave up 3 in about 5 minutes of game time. And the team in front of him absolutely crumbled, but it wasn't like any of those goals were mind-blowing goals either. It's not like "even the epically-great Howard was fooled!" The defense broke down and Howard had nothing to counter it. Plain and simple. And that's how it's gone.

Now again, I'm not dogging Howard on the matter. I think he's cooled off, but that happens. No one's as hot as he was all the time and there are clearly bigger issues than goaltending at play in all of these games. So I still walk away and say no harm, no foul. But the idea that he's fundamentally more sound and stable than Osgood is just laughable. Osgood's got his weak points like any guy, but he's got a lot of fundamental strong points that have carried him through a long career and to multiple Cups. Howard's still very much a rookie with some rough edges. He knows how to stop pucks pretty damn well, but he's still figuring out what to do next with the puck. He'll learn soon enough, but it's definitely not all there yet.
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#58 cmonster

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:10 AM

First off, neither goalie has been getting support offensively or defensively. The team as a whole is playing like crap. I watched the game against Minnesota, and it seemed like every time up the ice it was an odd man rush. Osgood got no support. and Both Howard and Osgood have benfitted from some awesome plays from their teammates.

The reason I think the Wings are struggling is not due to our goaltenders, but the philosophy of Ken Holland. Invest in defense, and get a "good enough" goalie. Up till this year the Wings have not needed lights out goaltending. Rarely was it necessary for a goalie to steal a game. Now, it is precisely what we need. I don't think either goalie is capable of it. One due to rookie status, and one due to....well I don't know exactly why Ozzie's head is up his ass, but nonetheless something is wrong.

I really hope in the next few games several things happen. The first being a rotation of goalies until one goalie has a dominating performance. Secondly, statement games from either goalie. A shutout, or a game with monster save after monster save. Three, a total and complete effort top to bottom. And finally, four, wins.

#59 clutchngrab

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:39 AM

I'm not directly blaming Osgood on this game, but the fact of the matter is that with this team and how they play in front of either goalie, Howard really is the only chance - and I admit not a great one - mostly due to his rebound control. But at least he can stop the puck as his numbers indicate. Ozzie slappies seem to forget that is the first job of the goalie. Osgood is just not as quick and positionally sound as he used to be and he is small, small, small in net. Ever notice how many "unlucky" goals he gives up? This is because he is too deep in the crease and isn't big enough or quick enough anymore to cover the net to have the "unlucky" shots bounce of him.

But whatever - drafting higher is an option.

Edited by clutchngrab, 28 January 2010 - 12:40 AM.

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#60 F.Michael

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:51 AM

QUOTE (Gordie Howe hat trick @ January 27, 2010 - 11:37PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Osgood isn't the starter anymore, I know alot of you want him to be but he just doesn't have it anymore end of discussion.

Meh - IMO it's rather debatable if Ozzie still has what it takes to be a legit #1 netminder in this league.

Like GMR said - sitting Ozzie for long stretches hasn't done neither him, nor the team any good...Problem is - does Babcock continue to play Ozzie 'till he gets ouuta his funk, and risk losing several more games due to rust, or go right back to Howard, and pin all our hopes on the kid?

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