2/6 GDT: Red Wings 3 at Kings 4

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Hey, remember when this Team had Coaching which put FAITH in it's veteran leadership, rather than throwing them under the bus when adversity hit?

Remember when this Team had Coaching which realized that this is a marathon, not a sprint, and that the ones most probably best equipped to get you over the finish line AGAIN, are those who have been there before, so that when they TELL you what they need to be successful, you GIVE them the best opportunity to be successful, rather than a backhanded slap and a response of "You'll work with what I think you need, not what you're telling me you need, because I'm the boss. You're not the boss. I'm the boss. You're not the boss. I'm the boss. Get it? Get it?!?"

I think I have to go now.

I'm due back on the planet Earth.

[Outsider 42]

I have absolutely no idea what any of this means.

Fair enough. Let's break it down, then.

The message to Stevie was basically "You've been great. But you're not, anymore. Thanks for your years of service, but with you in the Room, it'll be impossible for D and Z to take over and make this Team their own. Your shadow looms too large, and they can't flourish in it. You're a legend. Everyone wants you to leave on your own terms. That would be the best case scenario." Exit Yzerman.

Shanny, seeing this, decided that he too would "move on" to make way for the new generation. While he wasn't forced out, he most certainly didn't like the message that was quite clearly sent to his Captain, and very good friend. He thought it was BS that Yzerman was given his own sword to fall on, however respectfully done. Exit Shanahan.

Cheli was forced out. Anyone who can't see that is either blind, or delusional. Babcock didn't want him here. Exit Chelios.

You see these guys as "old" or "over the hill" or "past their prime".

The guys in the Room? THEY see them as Teammates. Warriors they'd fought, and bled, with. Guys who'd helped paved the way for player, after player, after player, to have success in the Winged Wheel. The OLD GUARD, who had earned the right to pass the torch onto the new guard, after years of service and loyalty.

The dynamic has changed. This is now a "what have you done for me lately?" Team.

It shows. Enjoy it.

[Broken 16 381]

Fair enough. Let's break it down, then.

The message to Stevie was basically "You've been great. But you're not, anymore. Thanks for your years of service, but with you in the Room, it'll be impossible for D and Z to take over and make this Team their own. Your shadow looms too large, and they can't flourish in it. You're a legend. Everyone wants you to leave on your own terms. That would be the best case scenario." Exit Yzerman.

Shanny, seeing this, decided that he too would "move on" to make way for the new generation. While he wasn't forced out, he most certainly didn't like the message that was quite clearly sent to his Captain, and very good friend. He thought it was BS that Yzerman was given his own sword to fall on, however respectfully done. Exit Shanahan.

Cheli was forced out. Anyone who can't see that is either blind, or delusional. Babcock didn't want him here. Exit Chelios.

You see these guys as "old" or "over the hill" or "past their prime".

The guys in the Room? THEY see them as Teammates. Warriors they'd fought, and bled, with. Guys who'd helped paved the way for player, after player, after player, to have success in the Winged Wheel. The OLD GUARD, who had earned the right to pass the torch onto the new guard, after years of service and loyalty.

The dynamic has changed. This is now a "what have you done for me lately?" Team.

It shows. Enjoy it.

I love how people compare pre-cap teams to post cap teams as if there is any relevance. Let's just throw out the fact that this team is two seasons removed from a Cup and one season removed from a Cup appearance.

The dynamic has changed. This is now a cap compliant team.

It shows. Enjoy it.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Broken 16

[clutchngrab 12]

While I've been hyper-critical of Holland in this thread, that doesn't mean I think he should be run out of town either. You can be critical of people and identify mistakes without thinking that they're total hacks that should be fired.

I think Holland screwed up big-time in the off-season. I would've traded some roster players and let certain guys walk to keep some of our proven scoring depth. I think that was a HUGE gamble, and I don't think it was hard to spot. It was convenient to memorize, but the writing was on the wall that this team was in scoring trouble when all four guys walked and the reality is, it could've been prevented. We have plenty of two-way depth on offense and a major lack of scoring. That's a simple thing to see. You trade some of that depth away for cap space and sign your goal scorers.

It should have been simple but he hesitated. He comes out after and says that he never foresaw every guy walking, and if that's really true, than shame on him for being stupid. I think he probably knew better than he let on, but he still didn't have the gall to make the moves necessary to keep our goal count up.

That said, I think he did a good job cleaning up the mess as best he could in signing Bert and Eaves. I would've passed on Williams and saved the cap space, but I wasn't wholly bothered by the move either.

He is a master at signing stars and "no-names" to great deals, but I've been less than thrilled to say the least at his deals with mid-level guys.

I agree with many who suggest that the European scouting that's been in place for awhile ought to get more praise for finding many of the guys that we've built the empire around, though that's also no fault of Hollands either.

I think the biggest thing is that Holland needs to learn from this season that he's got to make sacrifices to ice a solid, well-rounded team. You can't keep every guy you developed. You can't keep every guy you "hope" becomes a better player.

Again, I'm not saying we should run him out of town, but his poor decisions or lack of foresight got us into this mess, and it's silly not to acknowledge it as a fundamental mistake that's lead to many of our problems when it blatantly is what it is.

I don't know - hindsight is 20 - 20. Sure letting Hossa, the shin-guard assassin and Hudler all walk was a probably a mistake. But who would you have traded to keep Hudler or Sammie? Flip?

Regardless, it was not a stretch to think that:

1. Mule would pick up significant scoring slack with a year on par with last or better.

2. Z and D would have offensive years on par with where they have been

3. Lids and Rafalski would be on par offensively with where they have been.

4. We would see improvement in Flip including more goals. (I think he is playing fine, btw)

5. Leino would not have been a complete and utter bust

6. Bert and Willie would be good for 15 - 20 goals each.

7. Helm and Abbie would contribute more than last year.

8. Erriccson would improve, Lebda and Meech wouldn't suck.

9. Kronwall and Stuart would be forces.

Collectively, these are not bad assumptions from a GM's POV - but only 4 and the Helm part of 7 turned out to be true. And people will and have argued point 4. Injuries, the lack of development and age are the big factors this year.

I mean, when you think about it, the brightest spots this year have been Helm, Howard, and the emergence of Kronner offensively before he got hurt. Probly only Kronwall was something the GM considered.

I knew scoring would be a challenge, but I did not expect such inconsistent play on D and the obvious injuries. I fully expected 2nd in the central this year.

Edited February 7, 2010 by clutchngrab

[Sgt. Angry 23]

Which one of you guys mentioned that, after the first period, you mentioned it was gonna suck to lose this game? I'll bet a lot of us were thinking the same thing.

The following are some of my "just like to see" items concerning the Wings.

1. I'd just like to see the opposing defensemen give us some of the giftwrapped turnovers that we regularly serve up to them. I just don't recall seeing that happen.

2. Yes, this is a bit macabre and/or sick, but I'd like to see some of the opponents having to be helped off the ice for a change. Why does it always have to be us?

3. Why is it never guys like Stuart or Ericksson who get injured - always our better players. Oh, that's right, you have a better chance of being injured if you're actually in the play!

4. I'd like to see someone ask Babcock or Lidstrom the following: "You have mentioned before about having to play a full 60 minutes, and not lose concentration. Having said that, could you tell us what exactly will happen in the course of the next two games to make you all forget that you ever said that, so that you'll most likely be right back here in a few days saying the same things? Could we call this a bad case of cranial-rectal insertion? Of course, what our prize winning TV team will really ask is something really intelligent, like "How disappointing is this loss tonight?"

I just hope that this coming break will do what has been done in so many other situations - cool off the hot teams, and heat up the cold teams.

[zettie85 106]

I don't know - hindsight is 20 - 20. Sure letting Hossa, the shin-guard assassin and Hudler all walk was a probably a mistake. But who would you have traded to keep Hudler or Sammie? Flip?

Regardless, it was not a stretch to think that:

1. Mule would pick up significant scoring slack with a year on par with last or better.

2. Z and D would have offensive years on par with where they have been

3. Lids and Rafalski would be on par offensively with where they have been.

4. We would see improvement in Flip including more goals. (I think he is playing fine, btw)

5. Leino would not have been a complete and utter bust

6. Bert and Willie would be good for 15 - 20 goals each.

7. Helm and Abbie would contribute more than last year.

8. Erriccson would improve, Lebda and Meech wouldn't suck.

9. Kronwall and Stuart would be forces.

Collectively, these are not bad assumptions from a GM's POV - but only 4 and the Helm part of 7 turned out to be true. And people will and have argued point 4. Injuries, the lack of development and age are the big factors this year.

I mean, when you think about it, the brightest spots this year have been Helm, Howard, and the emergence of Kronner offensively before he got hurt. Probly only Kronwall was something the GM considered.

I knew scoring would be a challenge, but I did not expect such inconsistent play on D and the obvious injuries. I fully expected 2nd in the central this year.

Bert has held up his end of this assumption as well.

[finalfilppula 2]

this season would be a lot more tolerable if the team just pretended like it gave a damn about winning.

[clutchngrab 12]

Fair enough. Let's break it down, then.

The message to Stevie was basically "You've been great. But you're not, anymore. Thanks for your years of service, but with you in the Room, it'll be impossible for D and Z to take over and make this Team their own. Your shadow looms too large, and they can't flourish in it. You're a legend. Everyone wants you to leave on your own terms. That would be the best case scenario." Exit Yzerman.

I don't think Yzerman was forced out - I think he got tired of playing on one leg.

Shanny, seeing this, decided that he too would "move on" to make way for the new generation. While he wasn't forced out, he most certainly didn't like the message that was quite clearly sent to his Captain, and very good friend. He thought it was BS that Yzerman was given his own sword to fall on, however respectfully done. Exit Shanahan.

So what? He had good years, but he was essentially done when he left.

Cheli was forced out. Anyone who can't see that is either blind, or delusional. Babcock didn't want him here. Exit Chelios.

And Chelios is so valuable that he could hardly get playing time on the Wings with Brett Lebda in the lineup and is getting DUI's in the AHL. Again, time passes.

You see these guys as "old" or "over the hill" or "past their prime".

You forgot Sawchuk, Delvecchio, Lindsey.

The dynamic has changed. This is now a "what have you done for me lately?" Team.

Its called time passing, age, life, death, the truth that all things must come to pass.

[clutchngrab 12]

Bert has held up his end of this assumption as well.

agreed.

[Outsider 42]

I love how people compare pre-cap teams to post cap teams as if there is any relevance. Let's just throw out the fact that this team is two seasons removed from a Cup and one season removed from a Cup appearance.

The dynamic has changed. This is now a cap compliant team.

It shows. Enjoy it.

LOL. You keep right on telling yourself that, Broken. Keep telling yourself that the reason this Team hasn't played like a TEAM all Season, that the best Players on this Team haven't produced to nearly the level they should, that the reason they fail to show up in so many games and look disinterested in so many others.....

Is because of the Cap. Or due to nothing more than injuries.

Always, ALWAYS, in the past this Team has played for each other, as a Team. Now? They're a bunch of individual players, (note the lower case "p"), out there. Talented, but less in their "parts" than they are as a "whole".

Keep telling yourself whatever it is that helps you sleep at night.

Then head on out to the local "hang outs" around town and talk to the guys who ARE "in the know". Get 'em drunk enough, they'll sing like canaries. And they've got a WHOLE different take on the situation than that which you espouse.

[umredwing11 2]

If I could add my one positive comment of the day, at least it appears that the three injuries sustained today are not long-term.

per MLIVE

I don't know if this even changes the red wings long-term prognosis in terms of the playoffs, but good news nonetheless.

Edited February 7, 2010 by umredwing11

[gcom007 1,465]

Nope. Not just Ozzie. But Ozzie is one of them.

Why don't you take a look at what's happened to the veteran leadership in that lockerroom, going back to Babcock's first year in Detroit.

Take a look at how it was treated PRIOR to it's oftentimes sudden departure from the Organization, up to and including last year.....

Then tell me the balance of the veteran leadership which is still left in the Room probably isn't sitting back and saying "WTF......" to themselves.

Hmmm, I'm not going to lie, I kinda want to take back what I said earlier. You actually raised some good points that I forgot about. I'm a big proponent of understanding the context of a situation when discussing it, but I was focused on this season. In looking at the whole of Babcock's tenure, you raise good points. Babcock definitely seems to prefer younger guys that he can "mold" more than older guys that are a bit more set in their ways. There's been more than enough chatter in the press to know that a lot of the older guys were at the very least less than thrilled at Babcock's lack of respect for the veteran guys on the team. And if they said what they did in the press, you've got to imagine that off the record they were nothing short of pissed.

And I'll definitely admit, I've never been real sold on Lidstrom as a Captain, though I'm far less sold on Zetterberg. Both of them seem a bit too passive or almost diplomatic in their approach to leading.

Think back to Yzerman. What do you think he would've said heading into Game 7 last year?

"We will win game 7."

It would be a front page declaration.

While we don't see these guys in the room, how they respond to the media is absolutely a reflection of leadership style. Where as Lidstrom spews lines that mean nothing and carry absolutely no weight, Yzerman in the face of adversity would come out and make huge declaration statements to the media, for all the world to see, that this Red Wings team would not only play harder and keep working, but THEY WOULD WIN.

Lidstrom is not that guy. Zetterberg is not that guy. They're both insanely good hockey players, but that doesn't make them insanely good leaders.

Yzerman may not seem it in some respects, but he absolutely was a warrior. The fiercest of warriors at that. To play through what he played through is all you need to know. Steve Yzerman was a leader because he refused to lose. That doesn't mean he always came out on top, but he never took it lightly. He never quit.

Draper is the only guy left who still has that mentality, and funny enough, he's one of the only guys who's spoken up this year in the media and in the locker room and called the situation out for what it was. And it worked for a bit, but unfortunately, Draper's not Steve Yzerman.

I also can't help but think Babcock has a lot to do with the "well I thought we played real well and we just need to keep battling and play harder." Basically, the utterly empty, canned statements to the press that say nothing. If you've got leadership in the locker room and confidence in the room, you're not going to have a problem meeting the press and being more honest in stepping up and making bold declarations.

I don't think it's there, and in really looking back on the last four years, it very well might have a lot more to do with Babcock than I thought.

I'm not saying he sucks or we should fire him though for the record. I'm just beginning to really think about this one, but I've got to admit, it's incredibly intriguing...

[stuck in socal 56]

I just got back home from the game. I thought the Wings played a decent 1st and 3rd period but that 2nd period was awful. I just think it would be better for this team to miss the playoffs and have a nice break and come back ready for next year. We can not seem to get any chemistry going and we just pile on injury after injury. Side note, today the LA fans were acting like dicks. I guess that is what same regular season success does to you..

[Jwo 7]

Yeah we blew a 3 goal lead and lost without getting any points.

You're lucky you missed out. It wasn't pleasant to watch.

Dang man that blows hard chunks.

I thought the game was on at 10:00 or 10:30 P.M. since the Wings where in L.A.

[Broken 16 381]

LOL. You keep right on telling yourself that, Broken. Keep telling yourself that the reason this Team hasn't played like a TEAM all Season, that the best Players on this Team haven't produced to nearly the level they should, that the reason they fail to show up in so many games and look disinterested in so many others.....

Is because of the Cap. Or due to nothing more than injuries.

Always, ALWAYS, in the past this Team has played for each other, as a Team. Now? They're a bunch of individual players, (note the lower case "p"), out there. Talented, but less in their "parts" than they are as a "whole".

Keep telling yourself whatever it is that helps you sleep at night.

Then head on out to the local "hang outs" around town and talk to the guys who ARE "in the know". Get 'em drunk enough, they'll sing like canaries. And they've got a WHOLE different take on the situation than that which you espouse.

My nights sleep doesn't hinge on the Wings performance. Unlike you, obviously.

I can pretty much take your entire, melodramatic diatribe on the Wings situation and sum it up in one sentence:

Lidstrom sucks as a captain.

That's what it sounds like you are saying. Especially if Yzerman's absence is really the root of the problem, as you claim to have heard from drunk people.

[Outsider 42]

I don't think Yzerman was forced out - I think he got tired of playing on one leg.

So what? He had good years, but he was essentially done when he left.

And Chelios is so valuable that he could hardly get playing time on the Wings with Brett Lebda in the lineup and is getting DUI's in the AHL. Again, time passes.

You forgot Sawchuk, Delvecchio, Lindsey.

Its called time passing, age, life, death, the truth that all things must come to pass.

You missed the point, clutch. As you most often do.

Stevie reportedly wanted one more year. He wanted that 700. He was made to feel "guilty" for wanting to accomplish such a thing when there were other, younger Players, who were waiting in the Wings, (literally and figuratively), for their turn to be the "face of the Franchise". It was subtle, but it was put right out there.

Shanahan? Done? He scored 40 goals, and had 41 assists that Season, clutch. Shanny wasn't "done". He was disgusted. He left. Period.

Cheli didn't get any ice time because Babcock wouldn't GIVE HIM any ice time. Or had you forgotten that? I'm sure you've probably forgotten the flap over J.R. comments that it was personal, and that Babcock "hated" Chelios, too. JR has big fat mouth, but what conceivable reason could he have for making a comment like that without SOME type of truth to the matter.

Again....you've MISSED the point.

These men, while "done" in YOUR eyes, were well respected TEAMMATES to the guys they played with. And if you think these guys form NO attachment to Teammates they've gone to war with, Season after Season, over the space of a decade and more.....

Than you know little to nothing about the Team dynamic. And when they watch their TEAMMATES and FRIENDS being treated like s***, simply because "time passes", they're thought is.....

"Time's passing for ME too. Will I be thrown under the bus once my best days are behind me, too? f*** THAT! I've given everything I HAD to this Team."

Where do you think the concept of Team Chemistry comes from?

[Guest mindfly]

[clutchngrab 12]

Hmmm, I'm not going to lie, I kinda want to take back what I said earlier. You actually raised some good points that I forgot about. I'm a big proponent of understanding the context of a situation when discussing it, but I was focused on this season. In looking at the whole of Babcock's tenure, you raise good points. Babcock definitely seems to prefer younger guys that he can "mold" more than older guys that are a bit more set in their ways. There's been more than enough chatter in the press to know that a lot of the older guys were at the very least less than thrilled at Babcock's lack of respect for the veteran guys on the team. And if they said what they did in the press, you've got to imagine that off the record they were nothing short of pissed.

And I'll definitely admit, I've never been real sold on Lidstrom as a Captain, though I'm far less sold on Zetterberg. Both of them seem a bit too passive or almost diplomatic in their approach to leading.

Think back to Yzerman. What do you think he would've said heading into Game 7 last year?

"We will win game 7."

It would be a front page declaration.

While we don't see these guys in the room, how they respond to the media is absolutely a reflection of leadership style. Where as Lidstrom spews lines that mean nothing and carry absolutely no weight, Yzerman in the face of adversity would come out and make huge declaration statements to the media, for all the world to see, that this Red Wings team would not only play harder and keep working, but THEY WOULD WIN.

Lidstrom is not that guy. Zetterberg is not that guy. They're both insanely good hockey players, but that doesn't make them insanely good leaders.

Yzerman may not seem it in some respects, but he absolutely was a warrior. The fiercest of warriors at that. To play through what he played through is all you need to know. Steve Yzerman was a leader because he refused to lose. That doesn't mean he always came out on top, but he never took it lightly. He never quit.

Draper is the only guy left who still has that mentality, and funny enough, he's one of the only guys who's spoken up this year in the media and in the locker room and called the situation out for what it was. And it worked for a bit, but unfortunately, Draper's not Steve Yzerman.

I also can't help but think Babcock has a lot to do with the "well I thought we played real well and we just need to keep battling and play harder." Basically, the utterly empty, canned statements to the press that say nothing. If you've got leadership in the locker room and confidence in the room, you're not going to have a problem meeting the press and being more honest in stepping up and making bold declarations.

I don't think it's there, and in really looking back on the last four years, it very well might have a lot more to do with Babcock than I thought.

I'm not saying he sucks or we should fire him though for the record. I'm just beginning to really think about this one, but I've got to admit, it's incredibly intriguing...

Yes - good post. Look at Mike's history w/ Anaheim. Rode a hot young goaltender with a mix of vets and mostly younger guys that he could mold and it got him to the SF finals. I'm not a Babcock hater, but I've never been a super huge fan either. My biggest issue with him is as a bench coach. I don't think he adjusts well to the game (or series) at hand - which is a different issue than the motivational one.

Edited February 7, 2010 by clutchngrab

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Fair enough. Let's break it down, then.

The message to Stevie was basically "You've been great. But you're not, anymore. Thanks for your years of service, but with you in the Room, it'll be impossible for D and Z to take over and make this Team their own. Your shadow looms too large, and they can't flourish in it. You're a legend. Everyone wants you to leave on your own terms. That would be the best case scenario." Exit Yzerman.

Shanny, seeing this, decided that he too would "move on" to make way for the new generation. While he wasn't forced out, he most certainly didn't like the message that was quite clearly sent to his Captain, and very good friend. He thought it was BS that Yzerman was given his own sword to fall on, however respectfully done. Exit Shanahan.

Cheli was forced out. Anyone who can't see that is either blind, or delusional. Babcock didn't want him here. Exit Chelios.

You see these guys as "old" or "over the hill" or "past their prime".

The guys in the Room? THEY see them as Teammates. Warriors they'd fought, and bled, with. Guys who'd helped paved the way for player, after player, after player, to have success in the Winged Wheel. The OLD GUARD, who had earned the right to pass the torch onto the new guard, after years of service and loyalty.

The dynamic has changed. This is now a "what have you done for me lately?" Team.

It shows. Enjoy it.

Your posts are usually full of misty-eyed delusions with evidence that no one outside of the Wings locker room could know, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this tirade. However, there is a fatal flaw in your logic... namely: Holmstrom, Draper, Maltby. Not a one of those guys is here based upon what they have "done lately." Not to mention, this team has consistently rewarded player loyalty with lifelong or longterm contracts to good players (see: Franzen, Hank, Dats). It would hardly make sense to hand out 10+ year contracts if the logic was "what'd you do recently?" You're an Osgood fanatic, which is quite clear, and you are trying to mask your frustration with his lot on the team by making some ridiculous team-wide insinuations. Just me honest. You want him to play more; we all know it.

Also, to imply that this is an organization that has gone from loyal to unloyal is pretty moronic too. If you'd recall, if it wasn't for the fan reactions to the rumors, Bowman would have traded Yzerman long before Babcock had the chance to "force him out", as you so bizarrely claim. Bowman and this organization was hardly a sentimental, and the decisions to keep the guys they kept were pretty easy choices to make... nobody had hit a significant decline until Bowman was gone. And, Bowman wouldn't be dumb enough to use a 47 year old Cheli, and a washed up Shanny.... if he was so loyal to them, he could have signed them in Chicago for the veteran leadership. So much for that theory.

[gcom007 1,465]

LOL. You keep right on telling yourself that, Broken. Keep telling yourself that the reason this Team hasn't played like a TEAM all Season, that the best Players on this Team haven't produced to nearly the level they should, that the reason they fail to show up in so many games and look disinterested in so many others.....

Is because of the Cap. Or due to nothing more than injuries.

Always, ALWAYS, in the past this Team has played for each other, as a Team. Now? They're a bunch of individual players, (note the lower case "p"), out there. Talented, but less in their "parts" than they are as a "whole".

Keep telling yourself whatever it is that helps you sleep at night.

Then head on out to the local "hang outs" around town and talk to the guys who ARE "in the know". Get 'em drunk enough, they'll sing like canaries. And they've got a WHOLE different take on the situation than that which you espouse.

Without knowing any specifics of who he's actually talked to and what they talked about, I can absolutely say that this sort of thing is not so uncommon at all. Even the players will talk a whole lot more than some think when there's not a TV camera shoved in their face. I won't get into things I've heard specifically in such situations, but as said, I can vouch for the claim that you can absolutely hear a different side of the story (and you usually do) when you meet guys and talk to them like people (as they are just people) as opposed to smothering them and begging for autographs.

And I'll definitely vouch for the fact that I've "heard" plenty about players not happy with Babcock, but that's pretty much common knowledge at this point. And the reality is, plenty of players grumbled about Bowman as well, but Bowman always got more respect. However, I don't know if that's due to the players thinking that much worse of a hard coach like Babcock or begrudgingly respecting a guy like Bowman who is arguably the greatest coach in hockey history.

[zettie85 106]

You missed the point, clutch. As you most often do.

Stevie reportedly wanted one more year. He wanted that 700. He was made to feel "guilty" for wanting to accomplish such a thing when there were other, younger Players, who were waiting in the Wings, (literally and figuratively), for their turn to be the "face of the Franchise". It was subtle, but it was put right out there.

Shanahan? Done? He scored 40 goals, and had 41 assists that Season, clutch. Shanny wasn't "done". He was disgusted. He left. Period.

Cheli didn't get any ice time because Babcock wouldn't GIVE HIM any ice time. Or had you forgotten that? I'm sure you've probably forgotten the flap over J.R. comments that it was personal, and that Babcock "hated" Chelios, too. JR has big fat mouth, but what conceivable reason could he have for making a comment like that without SOME type of truth to the matter.

Again....you've MISSED the point.

These men, while "done" in YOUR eyes, were well respected TEAMMATES to the guys they played with. And if you think these guys form NO attachment to Teammates they've gone to war with, Season after Season, over the space of a decade and more.....

Than you know little to nothing about the Team dynamic. And when they watch their TEAMMATES and FRIENDS being treated like s***, simply because "time passes", they're thought is.....

"Time's passing for ME too. Will I be thrown under the bus once my best days are behind me, too? f*** THAT! I've given everything I HAD to this Team."

Where do you think the concept of Team Chemistry comes from?

So we are only feeling the backlash of the Yzerman situation now. We have been to 2 finals and won a cup. President's Trophys as well. What does that have to do with this season?

[lars1970 1]

Holy crap. I have no idea how we won that game. No way did the Kings deserve to win. The Wings dominated 50 minutes of that game.

I would be pissed too if I were you guys.

[Outsider 42]

My nights sleep doesn't hinge on the Wings performance. Unlike you, obviously.

I can pretty much take your entire, melodramatic diatribe on the Wings situation and sum it up in one sentence:

Lidstrom sucks as a captain.

That's what it sounds like you are saying. Especially if Yzerman's absence is really the root of the problem, as you claim to have heard from drunk people.

If that's what you got from my post, then perhaps you should take a reading comprehension course at your local community college. Lids was the ONLY logical choice to follow Yzerman. Period.

It's not Stevie's absence which is the problem. Yzerman being ever so gently shown the door is the problem. Shanny feeling "unwelcome" is the problem. Cheli being FORCED OUT is the problem. Osgood being treated like s*** is the problem.

Again....to YOU these guys are just numbers on the roster. To the guys in the Room, they're "brothers". Some they've known for nearly their entire adult lives, AND their entire careers in some cases.

You can think to yourself that your brother is a douchebag all you want. You may even proclaim it to him to his face on a daily basis.

But when someone ELSE ***** slaps your brother, that just ain't gonna work.

[stuck in socal 56]

Holy crap. I have no idea how we won that game. No way did the Kings deserve to win. The Wings dominated 50 minutes of that game.

I would be pissed too if I were you guys.

Don't rub it in. Grats on the franchise winning streak sir.

[zettie85 106]

If that's what you got from my post, then perhaps you should take a reading comprehension course at your local community college. Lids was the ONLY logical choice to follow Yzerman. Period.

It's not Stevie's absence which is the problem. Yzerman being ever so gently shown the door is the problem. Shanny feeling "unwelcome" is the problem. Cheli being FORCED OUT is the problem. Osgood being treated like s*** is the problem.

Again....to YOU these guys are just numbers on the roster. To the guys in the Room, they're "brothers". Some they've known for nearly their entire adult lives, AND their entire careers in some cases.

You can think to yourself that your brother is a douchebag all you want. You may even proclaim it to him to his face on a daily basis.

But when someone ELSE ***** slaps your brother, that just ain't gonna work.

What does this have to do with this season besides Ozzie not getting the time you think he deserves????