Does Holland have the courage to tank this team?

[Donaldjr2448 43]

Drake,

Thanks for sticking up for the franchise! I was thinking about this today as well. With all of the success we have had over the last 20 years, we have attracted a a flowing of fans that seem to ***** everytime we loose a game! Or the fact we will not win 50 games this year, these are the people that want to burn down the house and start over!

I was going to post a thread stating that if you have nothing positive to say about the team or the franchise, do not post anything at all! I am so sick of coming on here after we lose a game and seeing and reading all the bitching! This is the best site in the world when we win, but the worst when we lose! I understand that we are all fans, but this site is NOT designed to come on here and bring negative comments! I expect that from trolls from other teams, not from Wings fans!

If you want to be negative, start your own site and do it there! Right now, we don't need anymore negative tone. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say nothing at all! Thats all I got!

Thanks again Drake!! I needed to read that!! Great post!!!

OH YEAH!!!!! GO WINGS!!!!!!!

[cupforwings 138]

Great Post!

100% agree with everything you just said

[talex 1]

If they do which I do not think they will (burn down the house) they will have indeed spit in the face of all that is this stretch to date, the Wings have not maintained excellence as long as they have by burning down anything, it is by keeping a solid core and wrapping decent enough talent around that core when someone has to go.

I have been saying this all along, especially to those who want our veterans to all go away.

Maltby is not scoring, but does not make alot of mistakes and is a great penalty killer especially under pressure. Draper is falling off but is still one hell of a face off man and plays hard every shift. Holmstrom is still the best in front of the net, so don't expect him to be Helm or Z or Dats, he is Homer - OUR HOMER and they play a helluva lot better with him than without, sign him next year even just for a power play specialist, get him off the 1st and second lines maybe, but for crying out loud, they score when he is healthy and in there.

Lidstrom is still better than 95% of the D-Men, his O has suffered, but Babs refuses to split Z and Dats up which makes the Wings Much easier to defend against by rolling 1 really dangerous line.

The Mule will be the Mule, he may or may not be the scoring god we hope he will be upon return, however we know he will be a solid player and would have turned the tide in at least a few of the 1 point loses we have suffered through this year.

There is a need for a pure goal scorer and a Big D-Man that is not afraid to bust a guy in the chops and get oposition players out of our crease.

We cannot expect our Maltbys, Drapers, Homers and even lids, z and dats to always to play like yesteryear forever, but what we can do is know what to expect from them as a solid core and use them in roles we know they can and will deliver in, Drapes on a critical face off and to kill time and lead a 4th line grind, Maltby to give that attitude and block shot and show poise under pressure, Homer to use his every extremity including his deriair to deny opossing goalies vision especially on the pp, these are things we can bank and continue to build upon.

We already have some great young talent to put a torch to the boards, Filppula, Abdelkader, Helm, and yes even E if he can turn it around.

The way I see it, some people will have to go for one or more reasons. Raf to me would be a good choice if possible, 6Mil would have been a Hossa or a Kovie...

This team would not be where it is now with a Hossa or a Kovie, especially with Mule in, many of those 1 point loses become wins in regulation.

I agree with the OP, no need to burn the house down, it just needs a window or 2 replaced.

Many on this team have nothing to prove to anyone, whether it be the remainder of this season or next, they have something to prove now and in nearly 20 years... time and again, they have proved all doubters wrong, that is the Redwings and may they continue the march of excellence that we have all taken with them via our minds, hearts and souls.

[Namingway 146]

Amen to that Drake. Amen. Good read

[Seraph 240]

Just from a business standpoint, it's not smart. Crappy teams make less money. Mr. Illitch is too good of a business man to let that happen.

[Atariboy 0]

Nobody is suggesting Holland should burn the Wings down and give up the next five years. However, there WILL come a point in time this season when he's going to have to make a difficult decision. Go for it? Or make some cap space?

The reality of the situation is this: they're not as good as Chicago. Or San Jose. Or Vancouver. Or even freakin' Los Angeles. Sure injuries have plagued the Wings, but they were never going to be as good as the last couple of years unless some of the young guys brought it up a few notches. And while Helm, Miller. etc. have played fine, they ain't Marian Hossa!

What I'm getting out of this thread is that just maybe if the Wings ditched their 6th and 7th defensemen and maybe a 4th liner or two (but you people want Maltby back???) everything will be alright again. Sure, bring back the same team, but expect different results. Not gonna happen. They need to clear up some serious cap space to improve next year's team. I really think, at the very least, Rafalski needs to go this March. The fans are going to hate it, but they're financially handcuffed already with the players they've got... never mind the fact that they're unable to go out and get additional help.

I remember when the Wings were involved in playoff chases, and I even remember the last time they missed the playoffs (oh boy did they EVER waste Adam Oates), but there's a silver lining to this: you can get some great drafts out of mediocre seasons. I'll take an 80 point season if it means I might snag Lidstrom, Fedorov, Drake, Sillinger, and Konstantinov in one single draft. That's how you build a winner.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Atariboy

[Drapez 0]

The rational in this thread makes no sense to me. We're going into this based on the assumption that the playoffs are out of reach. Out of reach by how much doesn't really matter. There isn't really a difference between missing the playoffs by two points or by thirty.

Thats the beauty of the draft, if you're not in the playoffs, the worse your team performs the better you're rewarded. Now will the fans stop coming to games if the Wings finish with a top five pick this year? Absolutely not..

Will the fans stop coming if they miss the playoffs? Not at all. As a matter of fact, this team will be BETTER OFF, if they miss the playoffs. It will give Holland the justification to cut the old timers or give said players the incentive to retire.

This draft isn't exactly deep but its not 1999 all over again either. There are some great prospects in the top fifteen. The argument here really is a comparison between a team like Atlanta/Tampa/Pittsburgh vs teams like Edmonton and Minnesota. Teams that tanked or just plain blew and teams that tried to make the playoffs, missed and didn't get the top end talent that comes from being worse than other teams.

Lets just say for instance, that Franzen comes back and isn't effective and the team continues to slide. If they're hovering around 12th in the conference after the trade deadline, why not "rest" players? What incentive ISN'T there from moving up a few spots in the draft?

This season was ruined from the get go from all of the injuries, adding a top flight, blue chip prospect to our pool while maintaining this core for next season would be amazing. Teams like Chicago will get worse next year, while we get better.

If you're Holland and you're out of the playoffs, losing is the best recipe. Unless you prefer guys like Kindl over players like Toews...

[Drake_Marcus 890]

They may not be great stories per se but I think the progress of Eaves, Miller and Helm is quite something to be happy about. I know Eaves and Miller are injured right now but they've played hard.

Actually I think Eaves and Miller have a ton to be proud of. Leino's departure was a tip of the hat from Holland to both of them. Miller was supposed to be a cheap spare part, not a guy we need around.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I cried a little... but it might just be the alcohol...

[Drake_Marcus 890]

The rational in this thread makes no sense to me. We're going into this based on the assumption that the playoffs are out of reach. Out of reach by how much doesn't really matter. There isn't really a difference between missing the playoffs by two points or by thirty.

Thats the beauty of the draft, if you're not in the playoffs, the worse your team performs the better you're rewarded. Now will the fans stop coming to games if the Wings finish with a top five pick this year? Absolutely not..

Will the fans stop coming if they miss the playoffs? Not at all. As a matter of fact, this team will be BETTER OFF, if they miss the playoffs. It will give Holland the justification to cut the old timers or give said players the incentive to retire.

This draft isn't exactly deep but its not 1999 all over again either. There are some great prospects in the top fifteen. The argument here really is a comparison between a team like Atlanta/Tampa/Pittsburgh vs teams like Edmonton and Minnesota. Teams that tanked or just plain blew and teams that tried to make the playoffs, missed and didn't get the top end talent that comes from being worse than other teams.

Lets just say for instance, that Franzen comes back and isn't effective and the team continues to slide. If they're hovering around 12th in the conference after the trade deadline, why not "rest" players? What incentive ISN'T there from moving up a few spots in the draft?

This season was ruined from the get go from all of the injuries, adding a top flight, blue chip prospect to our pool while maintaining this core for next season would be amazing. Teams like Chicago will get worse next year, while we get better.

If you're Holland and you're out of the playoffs, losing is the best recipe. Unless you prefer guys like Kindl over players like Toews...

We were on a very similar wavelength earlier today. But I just couldn't bring myself to imagine this proud franchise being a whipping boy for however long it takes to get that magic pick.

For every Ovechkin there's a Stephan, right? Plus last place doesn't mean 1st pick anyway, it just gives you a shot at it.

And what does it say to the players? Why do you think players sign with Detroit over Atlanta? The weather and the beautiful downtown scenery?

[Drapez 0]

We were on a very similar wavelength earlier today. But I just couldn't bring myself to imagine this proud franchise being a whipping boy for however long it takes to get that magic pick.

For every Ovechkin there's a Stephan, right? Plus last place doesn't mean 1st pick anyway, it just gives you a shot at it.

And what does it say to the players? Why do you think players sign with Detroit over Atlanta? The weather and the beautiful downtown scenery?

One season isn't a "Whipping boy" and we don't need an Ovechkin, we have a Datsyuk..

All we need is capspace and a healthy team. Can you imagine this team, WITH cap space (In the neighborhood of eight million if Holmstrom and Lidstrom retires) and drafting a kid like Kirill Kabanov?

Its not as much of a tanking as it is a retooling.

[MotorCityMadness 388]

After the loss today I got thinking... we've been a lucky bunch for 20 years or so. We've scarcely had to watch failure (during the regular season at least!). So it got me to thinking... what if we don't have the next Lidstrom, Yzerman, Datsyuk, Zetterberg or even Hudler/Filppula/Franzen in the system right now? What if the Wings really need an injection of cheap but star quality talent.

Now I've carefully observed how most GMs deal with this: they burn the house down and hope a big fat insurance cheque comes in the mail. Sure the family (fans) have to sleep in a motel for a while, but sometimes the new house is ever better! Look at what happened in Washington, Pittsburgh and Chicago. Their GM's were pretty sad sacks. Emotionally distraught, unloved, those teams got thrown over the barrel every trade deadline and taken for all they were worth. Hell, they got passed around like a beautiful but emotionally needy college girl at an all male dorm during freshmen week.

The Caps, Pens and Hawks bravely said "here are my good players take what you want and throw me your draft picks!" for a decade or more. And for the most part they cashed in. The Captials drafted an offensive god named Ovechkin. The Penguins drafted Malkin who won them a Cup on the back of his Conn Smythe ( ) and the Hawks have already been awarded the Hockey Writers Association Memorial Sure-To-Win-The-Cup Award (stolen from the previous media darlings in San Jose).

Even the Lightning have gotten back into the act after their brief flirtation with extended greatness. Stamkos and Hedmen are both studs (even if Hedmen's season is terrible, you expect that from a rookie D-man) and I have a hard time counting LeCalvary out at his age.

Sure, the Maple Leafs have shown GM's how to piss away draft picks but they were stupid enough to float on the line of mediocrity for 40+ years instead of boldly daring to suck balls and tank for a decade like the Penguins and Hawks did.

What do Wings fans have to show for it? 4 measly cups and the longest postseason streak in modern sports. But where is the super young, dynamic talent that gets hockey forums hot under the hood?

Does Ken Holland have the courage to take his hands off the wheel and close his eyes when his card drifts towards the ditch? Hopefully everyone inside will be ok and maybe there's a new mustang on sale on Kijiji for an outrageously low price! I mean he knows a guy who had that same thing happen to him! Surely it can happen again?

Does Ken Holland have the balls to dump gasoline in the back office and leave a lit cigarette on his desk? If he walks out and a fire starts he can build a new, better factory that's not struggling financially this month.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________________

No.

Many people are starting to invoke the hated "Dead Things" name this proud franchise wore in the 70's and 80's.

Shame on you.

Do you know what the difference is between the Dead Things and Red Wings is? Excellence, class and Little Ceasers Pizza. Mike and Marian Ilitch bought the Wings from Lidstrom's ***** (Mr. Norris) in '82. They took season tickets owners to dinner personally to convince them to stick around. They remodeled the entire front office and taught the franchise and fans to be proud again.

Tanking this team for draft picks spits in the face of what Mr. and Mrs Ilitch did in Detroit.

This team should not and will not spit in the faces of their fans by burning the team down and pissing on the ashes so they can have a shot at a lottery pick.

If we go down we go down fighting. Mr. Ilitch was a US Marine for 4 years so I have a hard time imagining him bending over for Mr. Bettman like weaker owners have. He won't burn this franchise down and start over so we can giggle about a "youth movement" and dream of rainbows and puppies. The Wings will build on success while striving to deliver the best product on the ice every year. They won't just say that like every other GM does they'll do it like only a handful of GMs do.

I'm all for youth but I don't want to watch my beloved Red Wings get slapped around like a rented Mule (sorry Johan) for a decade just for the privilege of getting a chance to draft an 18 year old impact player.

Not to detract from the good points, but Chicago is a little different because they turned things around once the late Bill Wirtz passed away (no disrespect)

[talex 1]

Nobody is suggesting Holland should burn the Wings down and give up the next five years. However, there WILL come a point in time this season when he's going to have to make a difficult decision. Go for it? Or make some cap space?

The reality of the situation is this: they're not as good as Chicago. Or San Jose. Or Vancouver. Or even freakin' Los Angeles. Sure injuries have plagued the Wings, but they were never going to be as good as the last couple of years unless some of the young guys brought it up a few notches. And while Helm, Miller. etc. have played fine, they ain't Marian Hossa!

What I'm getting out of this thread is that just maybe if the Wings ditched their 6th and 7th defensemen and maybe a 4th liner or two (but you people want Maltby back???) everything will be alright again. Sure, bring back the same team, but expect different results. Not gonna happen. They need to clear up some serious cap space to improve next year's team. I really think, at the very least, Rafalski needs to go this March. The fans are going to hate it, but they're financially handcuffed already with the players they've got... never mind the fact that they're unable to go out and get additional help.

I remember when the Wings were involved in playoff chases, and I even remember the last time they missed the playoffs (oh boy did they EVER waste Adam Oates), but there's a silver lining to this: you can get some great drafts out of mediocre seasons. I'll take an 80 point season if it means I might snag Lidstrom, Fedorov, Drake, Sillinger, and Konstantinov in one single draft. That's how you build a winner.

I don't think anyone said they wanted Maltby back, in my post I simply said I feel more comfortable with him in the game when we have a lead then say Ericsson, my point being that Maltby is not and never was a scoring machine, but we know what he can do. I have seen post calling for burning down the house , there are several all over MI Live today, my point was that Ericsson was one of our young and fresh guys, Leino was also this younger white knight and so far what have they done? Even Helm has not scored in a month, so why does anyone think just because we get a young guy with potential that it will make any difference at all? The fact is we have some known commodities we can build around and I will stand by keeping Draper and Homer and Lids another season or 2, and Malts should he decide to stay as the bench warmer would not trouble me, especially if we could 2 way him. Abby hit people but we did not win any more with him then Malts, period. There have been many times this season I wished we had Cheli around because our D seems to lack leadership, nothing sgainst Nick, but I think it's obvious. Having played sports looking around and seeing guys with Names like Chelios mean more than we can imagine.

It is my belief we need to do something fairly quickly while we still have this core, get some (not a ton) of kids in who can take the torch from Lids, Malts, Drapes and Homer to play it forward, Z and Dats are not going to be able to do it on their own, we need that group of supporters to buy into the Greatness, we do not get this group now it could take years once this core retires.

I believe they need a pure goal scorer and a D-Man to clear the front of the net, I have also stated I do not think Franzen is this goal scorer, but depending Lilja could be the D-Man to clear our crease, time will tell there...

The talent to win is still here...

Right now more than anything Babbs seems to be lost, clearly the team even with the injuries has the talent to still win, many of these loses are 1 point games and maybe injuries make up for that, maybe they don't... they would surely make up for some and probably put us above the line for a playoff spot, that said I do think babbs needs to take some of his own medicine...

"it's called coaching, isn't it great?"

[Guest Lidstromboli]

the hawks tanked?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

That fight was fixed.

[titanium2 867]

That fight was fixed.

[Majsheppard 203]

It's not like we have a whole bunch of great stories to talk about this season other than Howard's surprising play.

Howard's surprising play?! Really? There is plenty to talk about, good and bad. My favorite is Miller, that is the biggest bright spot. I am not sold on Howard. The guy is athletic, but he cannot control a shot at all. If he could just absorb a shot, improve his rebound control half the time, he could be a good goaltender. I still think that he trusts his defense men way too much to clear the puck in front.

But no seems to be talking about the problems.

I could come up with a dozen bad things to say for every good thing to say.

[mackel 681]

I'm watching the Pens/Caps game not and Pierre mentioned that when we traded for Lang we sent Flichman (sp) and a 1st which turned out to be Green. Whis is this relevant? Well the way I look at this if at the trade deadline we could deal any or all of Raffi, Stuart, Cleary, Draper and Osgood for 1st round picks we accomplish a few things... 1) we see how the Miller's, Kindl's etc do in the show when the job is theirs to win or lose 2) we potentially drop a bit increasing the chance of a higher draft position or we make it to the playoffs with a young scrappy team and 3) we free cap space for solid off season signings.

Add to this the UFAs we may or may not resign we could have a lot of cap space available for signings or trades. Also you're new core of Flip, Zetterberg, Dats, Franzen, Kronner and hopefully Lids remains intact. I really feel the supporting cast has let us down this year so why not get out from under their contracts and retool?

[Wings_Toledo 233]

I agree that this organization would never go that route in order to rebuild. There is a very good possibility that the Wings won't make the playoffs this year, and while it would be very disappointing to see that happen, streaks don't go on forever. In the cap era, no team is going to be as good as the Wings have been over the last 20 years, there's just simply too much forced parity for that to happen. We have guys in our system that will be stars some day. I mean, when Franzen first made the team he wasn't expected to put up more than 30 points a season and now we're all practically expecting him to save the season for this team.

[Atariboy 0]

I'm watching the Pens/Caps game not and Pierre mentioned that when we traded for Lang we sent Flichman (sp) and a 1st which turned out to be Green. Whis is this relevant? Well the way I look at this if at the trade deadline we could deal any or all of Raffi, Stuart, Cleary, Draper and Osgood for 1st round picks we accomplish a few things... 1) we see how the Miller's, Kindl's etc do in the show when the job is theirs to win or lose 2) we potentially drop a bit increasing the chance of a higher draft position or we make it to the playoffs with a young scrappy team and 3) we free cap space for solid off season signings.

Add to this the UFAs we may or may not resign we could have a lot of cap space available for signings or trades. Also you're new core of Flip, Zetterberg, Dats, Franzen, Kronner and hopefully Lids remains intact. I really feel the supporting cast has let us down this year so why not get out from under their contracts and retool?

That's exactly what I'm getting at. We're going to have to give a little to get a little.

I agree that there's core guys (namely Dats, Zetterberg, & Mule) who need to stay... but the prevailing attitude that in addition to keeping Flip, Helm, Miller, Abdelkader, Ericsson and all the other young guys, you need to bring back all our aging defensmen and forwards is nuts. Does anybody here *really* think giving up... say, Cleary's and Lebda's roster spots, is going to fix this team?!? No!

It's time to clear a few of these guys outta here. Now. Don't let them walk away without getting something in return. You wait a couple more years and then you're looking at the backside of Dats' and Zetterberg's careers.

[Majsheppard 203]

I'm watching the Pens/Caps game not and Pierre mentioned that when we traded for Lang we sent Flichman (sp) and a 1st which turned out to be Green. Whis is this relevant? Well the way I look at this if at the trade deadline we could deal any or all of Raffi, Stuart, Cleary, Draper and Osgood for 1st round picks we accomplish a few things...

I really feel the supporting cast has let us down this year so why not get out from under their contracts and retool?

Okay, first of all. I doubt you could get many first rounders out of the people you listed. The market doesn't seem to be there.

Though you are right if you are saying the lack of first rounders is catching up to us. You are wrong on your next point, and they are connected.

The supporting cast let us down??? How about everyone let us down.

I personally think some of our role players have been our brightest spot. Miller, Helm, Abs, they seem to be making for a good supporting cast. I think our biggest failures have been in our core.

Pavel and Lidstrom haven't contributed enough for their salaries. Zetterberg has been fine, but he could stand to step it up when the pressure is on. Franzen is of course not there, and Val could stand to do more when he is out there, though he gets a pass for effort.

I cant hold anything against Williams as he hasn't been there either.

Rafalski is not pulling his weight at 6 million. Stuart has been the best/worst defensemen on the ice, you never know what your going to get out of him, which is not good at 3.7 million.

Bertuzzi is often praised around the town, because he has alot of goals. I will give him credit as he won a couple of games single handedly, and has played way better then I thought he would have. Yet, he is good for twice as many turnovers per game then scoring opportunities. He makes players on his line worse, and is repeatedly placed with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I do not think it is a conicidence that Datsyuk is having a horrible year while playing mostly with Bertuzzi. I would like him to be cheaper and on the ice less.

This all seems to be Babcocks fault though. He just doesn't seem to know how to make line decisions outside of the game. He juggles lines well, but always seems to forget what works and goes back to some things that just seem retarted.

I remember someone posting a stat about which defensemen turn the puck over the most, which are on the ice for the most goals. The stat revealed only one thing to me. Who is partnered with who. Obviously Lidstrom was the best and Rafalski was second best, and so on down the line. I just keep wondering, if we Stuart and Kronner are the next worst, and always paired together, and then Lebda and Ericcson are the worst... maybe you should consider BREAKING THEM UP!!!

Serriously, put Rafalski on the second line already. I bet if you pair Stuart with Lidstrom, and Rafalski with Kronner, you would fix the top two lines.

Same goes for the forwards. At the very start of the season the best line was Leino ,Val ,Williams. When Leino was just waiting to be traded, and Williams came back, I didn't see any effort to reunite the line. It is like Babcock doesn't remember any of that. Now he found that putting together the three best skaters works! I hope he doesn't forget that...

Another instance that drove me nuts, was Miller had his hand on two power play goals a while back, and then Babcock decides to put Leino back on the active roster. He then proceeds to put the healthy scratch on the power play instead of the hot Miller??? This is confusing.

I just cant ever follow his reasoning.

Do me a favor and just try to put the lines together like you did when you figured out that the best skaters should skate together. Put Pavel and Zetter together with someone that DESERVES to play with them. Roll four chemistry designed lines.

My cousin once said to me that the problem with the Wings is that they no longer have any superstar goal scorers this season. There is just a team full of role players. Franzen coming back will fix alot of this. but I agree it seems as if we have two superstars that make players around them better. The cap has made it hard to keep those top tier players. The point is you cannot have players like Leino or Bertuzzi who can make things happen some of the time by themselves play with players like Zetter and Datsyuk. You need the best shooters, and the guys who can find the open ice with them.

I hope that when Franzen is back, they put him with Datsyuk again. Rant over.

[CanadaBoy 151]

Great post Drake.

I applaud you sir.

[soultrain 43]

good post drake marcus.

[ben_usmc 253]

Okay, first of all. I doubt you could get many first rounders out of the people you listed. The market doesn't seem to be there.

Though you are right if you are saying the lack of first rounders is catching up to us. You are wrong on your next point, and they are connected.

The supporting cast let us down??? How about everyone let us down.

I personally think some of our role players have been our brightest spot. Miller, Helm, Abs, they seem to be making for a good supporting cast. I think our biggest failures have been in our core.

Pavel and Lidstrom haven't contributed enough for their salaries. Zetterberg has been fine, but he could stand to step it up when the pressure is on. Franzen is of course not there, and Val could stand to do more when he is out there, though he gets a pass for effort.

I cant hold anything against Williams as he hasn't been there either.

Rafalski is not pulling his weight at 6 million. Stuart has been the best/worst defensemen on the ice, you never know what your going to get out of him, which is not good at 3.7 million.

Bertuzzi is often praised around the town, because he has alot of goals. I will give him credit as he won a couple of games single handedly, and has played way better then I thought he would have. Yet, he is good for twice as many turnovers per game then scoring opportunities. He makes players on his line worse, and is repeatedly placed with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I do not think it is a conicidence that Datsyuk is having a horrible year while playing mostly with Bertuzzi. I would like him to be cheaper and on the ice less.

This all seems to be Babcocks fault though. He just doesn't seem to know how to make line decisions outside of the game. He juggles lines well, but always seems to forget what works and goes back to some things that just seem retarted.

I remember someone posting a stat about which defensemen turn the puck over the most, which are on the ice for the most goals. The stat revealed only one thing to me. Who is partnered with who. Obviously Lidstrom was the best and Rafalski was second best, and so on down the line. I just keep wondering, if we Stuart and Kronner are the next worst, and always paired together, and then Lebda and Ericcson are the worst... maybe you should consider BREAKING THEM UP!!!

Serriously, put Rafalski on the second line already. I bet if you pair Stuart with Lidstrom, and Rafalski with Kronner, you would fix the top two lines.

Same goes for the forwards. At the very start of the season the best line was Leino ,Val ,Williams. When Leino was just waiting to be traded, and Williams came back, I didn't see any effort to reunite the line. It is like Babcock doesn't remember any of that. Now he found that putting together the three best skaters works! I hope he doesn't forget that...

Another instance that drove me nuts, was Miller had his hand on two power play goals a while back, and then Babcock decides to put Leino back on the active roster. He then proceeds to put the healthy scratch on the power play instead of the hot Miller??? This is confusing.

I just cant ever follow his reasoning.

Do me a favor and just try to put the lines together like you did when you figured out that the best skaters should skate together. Put Pavel and Zetter together with someone that DESERVES to play with them. Roll four chemistry designed lines.

My cousin once said to me that the problem with the Wings is that they no longer have any superstar goal scorers this season. There is just a team full of role players. Franzen coming back will fix alot of this. but I agree it seems as if we have two superstars that make players around them better. The cap has made it hard to keep those top tier players. The point is you cannot have players like Leino or Bertuzzi who can make things happen some of the time by themselves play with players like Zetter and Datsyuk. You need the best shooters, and the guys who can find the open ice with them.

I hope that when Franzen is back, they put him with Datsyuk again. Rant over.

how has Z been ok, while Datsyuk and Flip (of all people) been bad?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

how has Z been ok, while Datsyuk and Flip (of all people) been bad?

You've got me.