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Valtteri Filppula appreciation


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#21 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:09 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:04PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a decent third liner? This is just sheer stupidity and unrivaled bias. Even gcom will admit that if you put him on the third line you would have one of the best third lines in the NHL.

Filppula could finish with 40 points in 50 games (which is within reach if he plays on the second line) and you'd still say "SEE, FILPPULA WILL ONLY EVER SCORE 40 POINTS! OVERPAID"



Well, if gcom will admit it, then.....

So.....we have to wait through another season (his 5th) for the potential of him playing a full season for my 40 point observation to be true?

Oh no....wait.....he's never topped it in 3. But if he had a career ending injury right now, I'm sure the HHOF would put him in based on potential and his ppg.

I like the guy, but he is what he is. He's a 3rd liner. You think more of him than I do, that's fine. I have guys like that as well (Maxim Lapierre, Ryan Kesler). No biggy.

#22 Z and D for the C

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Lidstromboli @ February 7, 2010 - 04:36PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
in before RedWingAbner


If only this post could be true if it was the last reply this thread ever has.

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#23 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:11PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If only this post could be true if it was the last reply this thread ever has.


No need to be snotty; if not for me and my obvious anti-Filppula bias, how else would he know (perhaps somehow....hope against hope and all that) that you are soulmates?



#24 gcom007

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:04PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a decent third liner? This is just sheer stupidity and unrivaled bias. Even gcom will admit that if you put him on the third line you would have one of the best third lines in the NHL.

Filppula could finish with 40 points in 50 games (which is within reach if he plays on the second line) and you'd still say "SEE, FILPPULA WILL ONLY EVER SCORE 40 POINTS! OVERPAID"


When this team is desperate for goals and a player like Flip is making $3 million to be among the worst forwards on the team in goal scoring, there's a problem. If his 40 points were demonstrative of Datsyuk-esque playmaking ability, it'd be one thing, but they're simply not.

I've never said Flip is a bad player. I think he's a great defensive player and he's got a good attitude. I generally really appreciate defensive guys, but on this team, if you're primary asset is defense, you're a 3rd/checking line guy and you're making $1-1.5 million tops.

I think Flip's a solid 2nd line center on a lot of teams, and for that matter, I think he'd find a lot more personal success on other teams. I also think on other teams, his contract would be reasonable.

On the Red Wings, he'll always be 3rd in line at best for centers considering we've got two of the top two-way centers in the game on this squad. He racks up assists because we still have good guys around and he gets a lot of quality ice time, but he doesn't score goals and again, he's always going to be overshadowed by Dats and Z.

In the Detroit Red Wings Context, we desperately need goals which he simply doesn't provide with any sort of authority, and I think it's unlikely that he'll ever do so. It's not the end of the world for him by any means as he still has plenty of upside in other areas, but this team needs different tools right now.

We need goals. It's simple.

Even as a superfan of Flip, I don't see how you can't recognize this simple matter for what it is and admit that there's credence to the idea that his cap hit might best be used to make room for another guy who specializes in scoring goals. And furthermore, can you not admit that he'd be a better fit on other teams if you really feel he is as talented as he is considering he's always going to be the 3rd center so long as Dats and Z are here?


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#25 Z and D for the C

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE (RedWingAbner @ February 7, 2010 - 08:09PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have guys like that as well (Maxim Lapierre, Ryan Kesler). No biggy.


You make this so easy, dude.

All your logic here:

First 3 seasons in the NHL Kesler averaged 25 points.

First 3 seasons in the NHL Filppula averaged 31 points.

So going from his first 3 seasons, Filppula will never top 40 points. But Kesler's first 3 seasons were worse than Filppula's, so he must be a crappy 40 point third liner right? How can you possibly like him?


Oh and PS, no one is saying he should go in the HHOF. So please, stop making yourself look stupid with stupid exaggerations.

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#26 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:26 PM

QUOTE (titanium2 @ February 7, 2010 - 03:39PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Does that look perverted to anyone else?
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#27 Z and D for the C

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:29 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ February 7, 2010 - 08:22PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When this team is desperate for goals and a player like Flip is making $3 million to be among the worst forwards on the team in goal scoring, there's a problem. If his 40 points were demonstrative of Datsyuk-esque playmaking ability, it'd be one thing, but they're simply not.


You act like 40 super dazzling points are better than 40 "regular" points. Points are points, goals are offense, assists are offense, points are offense, offense is offense. The wings need offensive contributions. Filppula is making offensive contributions. Flip provides what the Wings need.


QUOTE
Even as a superfan of Flip, I don't see how you can't recognize this simple matter for what it is and admit that there's credence to the idea that his cap hit might best be used to make room for another guy who specializes in scoring goals. And furthermore, can you not admit that he'd be a better fit on other teams if you really feel he is as talented as he is considering he's always going to be the 3rd center so long as Dats and Z are here?


If Filppula is always going to be a third line center on this team, then yes, trade him by all means (otherwise, absolutely not). But I don't think he'll always be a third line center. The past 2 seasons, the last games the wings have played feature Filppula on the second line. I think this says a lot about how the lines should be set up.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 07 February 2010 - 08:31 PM.

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#28 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:22PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You make this so easy, dude.

All your logic here:

First 3 seasons in the NHL Kesler averaged 25 points.

First 3 seasons in the NHL Filppula averaged 31 points.

So going from his first 3 seasons, Filppula will never top 40 points. But Kesler's first 3 seasons were worse than Filppula's, so he must be a crappy 40 point third liner right? How can you possibly like him?


Oh and PS, no one is saying he should go in the HHOF. So please, stop making yourself look stupid with stupid exaggerations.



It might seem easy to someone not on the same plane. I liked Kesler, still do, but that doesn't mean that I overvalue him (as you do with Flip). It also doesn't guarantee that every single player I like will follow the same career path, so your argument is dumb. By saying "Well, Kesler put up this point total and now he puts up this point total, blah blah blah, so you obviously are dumb blah blah blah" is just white noise. Kesler makes $1.75 M and I liked the fact that he was gritty, I never mentioned that I liked that he put up numbers that seemed in relation to his cap hit.

Summary, just for you: Just because there is league precedent for a guy to have a vast improvement, it doesn't mean Filppula is anything more than a 3rd liner.

Also, my sarcasm regarding the HHOF is plain to see. You look stupid by continously arguing with me without making a solid point. I keep telling you that he's a fine 3rd liner and it pisses you off so much you have to call me names and get pissy.





#29 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:37 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ February 7, 2010 - 08:22PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When this team is desperate for goals and a player like Flip is making $3 million to be among the worst forwards on the team in goal scoring, there's a problem. If his 40 points were demonstrative of Datsyuk-esque playmaking ability, it'd be one thing, but they're simply not.


Gcom, I'm not familiar with you, but you seem like a very intelligent person. Be very careful with your words, because Z and D for C will find a way to take something out of context, argue that you made that point, and then think that an argument has been won. He'll call you stupid too, but that's just cute, I think.

#30 lilja4mvp

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:40 PM

filppula is simply the best at missing wide open nets and botching glorious scoring chances

#31 Z and D for the C

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (RedWingAbner @ February 7, 2010 - 08:33PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Summary, just for you: Just because there is league precedent for a guy to have a vast improvement, it doesn't mean Filppula is anything more than a 3rd liner.


My point (And I'm trying to make it as "solid" as possible), using Kesler's history, is that just because a player doesn't break 40 points in his first 3 seasons doesn't mean he never will. This seems to be the basis of your entire argument. And your salary thing is supplementary, so don't go gallivanting that around.

I can EASILY go on provide a host of additional detail but I'm pretty sure you'll lose focus and then say that I'm not making any points again. In fact I fear it may already be too late.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 07 February 2010 - 08:44 PM.

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#32 Z and D for the C

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:42 PM

QUOTE (RedWingAbner @ February 7, 2010 - 08:37PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gcom, I'm not familiar with you, but you seem like a very intelligent person. Be very careful with your words, because Z and D for C will find a way to take something out of context, argue that you made that point, and then think that an argument has been won. He'll call you stupid too, but that's just cute, I think.


Nope, gcom is pretty smart and even keeled, though I disagree with what he thinks about Filppula completely.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#33 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:47 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:41PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My point (And I'm trying to make it as "solid" as possible), using Kesler's history, is that just because a player doesn't break 40 points in his first 3 seasons doesn't mean he never will. This seems to be the basis of your entire argument. And your salary thing is supplementary, so don't go gallivanting that around.

I can EASILY go on provide a host of additional detail but I'm pretty sure you'll lose focus and then say that I'm not making any points again. In fact I fear it may already be too late.


I agree that it's possible. Hell...what did Joe Thornton have, 7 points his rookie year? I just don't see Filppula doing it or ever going much over 40 points. Just because any player did it doesn't mean that it's a lock. Hell, Flip could score 40 goals next year. Doubtful, but possible.

It comes down to the fact that you like him and see him as a top-flight talent, I see him as a 3rd liner, and we are looking at the same player.

#34 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:49 PM

QUOTE (lilja4mvp @ February 7, 2010 - 08:40PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
filppula is simply the best at missing wide open nets and botching glorious scoring chances



As Kenan Thompson (as Charles Barkley) said to Michael Phelps on SNL:

"Agreed!"

#35 Z and D for the C

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:03 PM

QUOTE (RedWingAbner @ February 7, 2010 - 08:47PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hell, Flip could score 40 goals next year.


I see your point, but here is the difference: Filppula has shown no indication of being able to score 40 goals. This season, filppula shows plenty of indication that he can get at least 60 points. Why?

- I've noticed it since his first season in the NHL. Believe it or not, I don't just like Filppula because he's cute, or because he's finish or because his last name is probably the most fun to pronounce in the NHL (admit it!) besides maybe Evgeni Nabokov. I've seen a lot of potential in him since I first saw him in the NHL and now that it's coming to fruition I'm ecstatic. (Okay, arguably coming to fruition wink.gif) The main point here is that I don't see his potential because I like him, I like him because I see potential

- Was spectacular for his role/expectation in the playoffs last year. It's not arguable.

- Over a period of 2/3 of a season and over 4 months Filppula has kept a pace of 55 points in a season, and it continues to improve. Now obviously pro-rating isn't absolute, but it's definitely meaningful and it's foolish to think he can't keep up that production for the rest of the season, especially that his PPG keeps going up! This brings me to my next point..

- Filppula has 9 points in the last 10 games, pretty close to a point per game. Now, don't get jumpy, I'm not calling him a 1 PPG player all of a sudden or will finish as a 1 PPG player from this point on until the end of the season, but again, this is indicitive of the fact that every game he plays he is getting better, and further reinforces the belief that if he had played a full season he would more than have broken 50 points, and left the 40 point plateau in the history pages.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 07 February 2010 - 09:21 PM.

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#36 Broken 16

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:08 PM

Flip is an outstanding third line center... but only a serviceable second line center. Not hating. His flashes of brilliance are to few and to far in between.

#37 Broken 16

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:12 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:22PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You make this so easy, dude.

All your logic here:

First 3 seasons in the NHL Kesler averaged 25 points.

First 3 seasons in the NHL Filppula averaged 31 points.

So going from his first 3 seasons, Filppula will never top 40 points. But Kesler's first 3 seasons were worse than Filppula's, so he must be a crappy 40 point third liner right? How can you possibly like him?


Oh and PS, no one is saying he should go in the HHOF. So please, stop making yourself look stupid with stupid exaggerations.



Uhhh... his point was that he also has players that he has an irrational fondness for. We all do.


#38 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 09:03PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
- Was spectacular for his role/expectation in the playoffs last year. It's not arguable.


Yes it is, because it's an opinion. He was all right, but it's not a definitive fact that he was spectacular....that's immeasurable.

#39 gcom007

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:30 PM

QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You act like 40 super dazzling points are better than 40 "regular" points. Points are points, goals are offense, assists are offense, points are offense, offense is offense. The wings need offensive contributions.Filppula is making offensive contributions. Flip provides what the Wings need.


To some extent, sure, but when you're getting points based on plays that you would expect most NHL players to make out there, why pay a guy $3 million for it?

I've brought up the Larionov example before. It might seem unfair to bring up a legend here, but here me out for the point of the matter before you make too swift a judgement.

For the majority of Larionov's career, he wasn't a major goal scorer, but he was an absolutely amazing play-maker who could rack up points through mostly assists. This was his specialty and you knew he would get out there and generate plays out of nowhere because he simply was a brilliant play-maker. Igor wasn't just part of a play in progress or a guy cycling the puck to a guy who then makes a play. Igor created plays all the time, coming up with insane passes and setups out of nowhere. He had some of the best hands in the game, an uncanny sixth sense on the ice, and the guy was just plain smart, on and off the ice. He rightly earned the nickname "The Professor," though I preferred using another saying: Larionov was a magician.

I don't say this to be critical, but Flip's play-making ability doesn't hold a candle to Larionov's. If you put Larionov in Flip's situation now at Flip's age, he'd be putting up 80-90 points a season easy. As I've always said, I'm not saying we should take any of Flip's points away at all. I'm not saying Flip needs to be Larionov either. The point of the matter here is the contextual value of a point.

The big difference between a guy like Flip and a guy like Larionov is that while Flip may "earn" every point he gets, it'd be better to say that Igor Larionov "owned" every point he got. While he didn't notch a lot of goals particularly in his NHL career, I'd say conservatively 75% of the goals scored off of an Igor Larionov assist would never have occurred if not for Larionov first making a brilliant play out of nowhere. Even as he aged and declined, he was still a magical play-maker. And on top of all that, he too was a responsible two-way player.

So my point is, there is a difference between a guy who's a play-maker in the purest sense of the word and a guy who puts up a fair amount of assists. Again, I'm not saying he doesn't earn those assists by any means, but you can't look at most of the resultant goals and say that the plays happened because Flip is creating great plays. I'll give the guy all the credit in the world for being a competent enough player to be able to skate with more talented offensive guys and not clog up the process too much. As you say, there's something to be said for the fact that he's getting the assists whether he's a vital part of the play leading to a goal or not.

But I don't think you can look back on all his points since returning and the teams general play and goal totals (considering other people returning as well) and say that he is helping our team score a lot more goals and win more games. And at $3 million on this Detroit Red Wings squad, you need to be helping a lot more than I think Flip helps us solely due to the fact that his specific specialty tools, while strong, are not the tools we need right now.


QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ February 7, 2010 - 08:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Filppula is always going to be a third line center on this team, then yes, trade him by all means (otherwise, absolutely not). But I don't think he'll always be a third line center. The past 2 seasons, the last games the wings have played feature Filppula on the second line. I think this says a lot about how the lines should be set up.


I think it's real tough to make such a point with that statement. Is it indicative of what the best long-run situation should be or indicative of the fact that in the most important games, the must-win games, you're going to gamble a bit more and ice the best line possible as much as you can to finish the job? I'd say it's the latter.

We can't afford to always ice a line with both Datsyuk and Zetterberg on it. Now more than ever with the cap weighing on us so heavily. It'll happen from time to time out of necessity when the game's on the line or nothing else is working, but it's far from the ideal. Babcock's been quoted in the paper as saying that many times, and just recently even, I believe in reference to splitting them again once Franzen returns. They were only put together again lately to try and get Z going after injury. It's not a permanent thing and it never was.

And honestly, look at how it's gone for Z and Dats. They have hardly been an offensive powerhouse when teamed together this year. They've had a couple good games and a lot of games where they weren't doing much. If you're going to put $13 million on one line, they've got to be putting up far better numbers than they have this year. If they were both playing at a 50 goal, 100 point-plus pace, it'd be one thing, but they're not. Not even close.

95% of the time moving forward, you're going to see Datsyuk and Zetterberg centering their own lines. Make no mistake about it.


Another reason to move Flip over other players aside from his $3 million cap hit: of all the non-superstar guys, he'd bring the best return because as said, to many teams, he'd be a far more important piece of the puzzle.

Again, can't say it enough, I don't dislike Flip near as much as I don't think he's a good fit for this Detroit Red Wings team at his salary. That's the bottom line.

Edited by gcom007, 07 February 2010 - 09:42 PM.

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#40 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ February 7, 2010 - 09:30PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Again, can't say it enough, I don't dislike Flip near as much as I don't think he's a good fit for this Detroit Red Wings team at his salary. That's the bottom line.


thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif

And also.....thank you for referencing Igor Larionov. Good times, good times. Remember when HE was the 3rd center behind Yzerman and Fedorov? Man, we were spoiled.





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