John Tavares - Still a strong Calder Trophy Candidate?

[egroen 384]

i think its easier to be top 10 goalies than defensemen or forwards tho. thats his point. its pretty obvious i thought

Because goalie is such an easy position to excel at?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Because goalie is such an easy position to excel at?

Excellent rebuttal.

[Finnish Wing 110]

Because goalie is such an easy position to excel at?

There are much less goalies in the WORLD in every league than forwards. That's why you can't say it's harder to get in the NHL as a goalie, because there are less guys competiting for the spots. And that's also why being in top something is always easier for goalies. This isn't a anti-goalie or anti-Howard post. I'm just saying that it isn't a very good argument to say that Howard's gonna win the Calder because he's the only guy in top10 among guys playing his position. Edited February 11, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[egroen 384]

There are much less goalies in the WORLD in every league than forwards. That's why you can't say it's harder to get in the NHL as a goalie, because there are less guys competiting for the spots. And that's also why being in top something is always easier for goalies. This isn't a anti-goalie or anti-Howard post. I'm just saying that it isn't a very good argument to say that Howard's gonna win the Calder because he's the only guy in top10 among guys playing his position.

That's like saying you are not as impressed with a Top 10 quarterback in the NFL because there are more linebackers.

[Finnish Wing 110]

That's like saying you are not as impressed with a Top 10 quarterback in the NFL because there are more linebackers.

I dunno anything about NFL, but what I said was a statistical fact. Top 10 for goalies = Top 30 for defensemen = Top 60 for forwads. AGAIN, not to take anything away from Howard, but that "Top 10 thing" just doesn't work here, comparing him with Duchene for example.

[egroen 384]

I dunno anything about NFL, but what I said was a statistical fact. Top 10 for goalies = Top 30 for defensemen = Top 60 for forwads. AGAIN, not to take anything away from Howard, but that "Top 10 thing" just doesn't work here, comparing him with Duchene for example.

Alright, stop pulling crap from your arse. It is not a "statistical fact"... you have no idea what you are talking about.

The best goalies in the world are playing in the NHL. If you have ever played hockey, you would know that everyone gets a chance in net... obviously it is a unique skill that only the best at that position stick to.

If you are a Top 10 goalie in the NHL, it is a hell of a lot more impressive than being a Top 60 forward in the NHL.

The proof is simply that Top 10 goalies fetch a heck of a lot more in trades than Top 60 forwards... obviously the GMs in the league disagree with your statistiacal facts.

[Finnish Wing 110]

Alright, stop pulling crap from your arse. It is not a "statistical fact"... you have no idea what you are talking about.

The best goalies in the world are playing in the NHL. If you have ever played hockey, you would know that everyone gets a chance in net... obviously it is a unique skill that only the best at that position stick to.

If you are a Top 10 goalie in the NHL, it is a hell of a lot more impressive than being a Top 60 forward in the NHL.

The proof is simply that Top 10 goalies fetch a heck of a lot more in trades than Top 60 forwards... obviously the GMs in the league disagree with your statistiacal facts.

60/10 = 360/60. I think that's a statistical and mathematical fact.

I dunno how that "best play in the NHL" is much different with defensemen and forwards.

If we're talking about market value and things like that, I'm pretty sure the average cap hit for top10 goalies is about the same than the average cap hit for top60 forwards. Also, I wouldn't say Howard is much more valuable in the trading market than for example Duchene right now.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[Frozen-Man 144]

There are much less goalies in the WORLD in every league than forwards. That's why you can't say it's harder to get in the NHL as a goalie, because there are less guys competiting for the spots. And that's also why being in top something is always easier for goalies. This isn't a anti-goalie or anti-Howard post. I'm just saying that it isn't a very good argument to say that Howard's gonna win the Calder because he's the only guy in top10 among guys playing his position.

Your argument here is also its own downfall. Why are their many less goalies than there are forwards? One of the main reasons is that they are a cream of the crop position and it is much harder to crack into the circuit of professional goalies at all. The point is that the pool of goalies in the NHL are almost all incredible players, while the pool of forwards or defensemen are not collectively as impressive. Take Lebda for example, compare his play to that of most other defensemen, if he was a goalie in the NHL and his play was relatively as bad among his peers he would not be employed as an NHL goalie. There is incredibly hard to find a really bad goalie (not saying that a goalie might not have an off slump or even an off year but if it is longer that that if there is any way a team can get rid of him they will) starter or backup in the NHL but it is relitavely easy to find several pretty bad (comparatively) forwards and Dmen per team. Put another way you may be the worst Navy Seal in your unit but you are still a heck of a lot better than almost any normal Naval corpsman.

I dunno anything about NFL, but what I said was a statistical fact. Top 10 for goalies = Top 30 for defensemen = Top 60 for forwads. AGAIN, not to take anything away from Howard, but that "Top 10 thing" just doesn't work here, comparing him with Duchene for example.

Again it is not a statistical fact because the pools that you are drawing from are not all homogeneous.

[Finnish Wing 110]

If the goaltenders are "the cream of the crop", how come guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are the best players? There are some bad forwards, I agree. There are also some bad goalies. There are more forwards, but I'd say that the average skill is about the same on both positions. I wouldn't say goalies are automatically the best just because there is only one goalie per team on the ice. Sure, they have bigger responsibilities, but also bigger possibilities. I as a goalie you compete with 59 other goalies in the league but as a forward you compete with 359 other forwards.

[egroen 384]

If the goaltenders are "the cream of the crop", how come guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are the best players? There are some bad forwards, I agree. There are also some bad goalies. There are more forwards, but I'd say that the average skill is about the same on both positions. I wouldn't say goalies are automatically the best just because there is only one goalie per team on the ice. Sure, they have bigger responsibilities, but also bigger possibilities. I as a goalie you compete with 59 other goalies in the league but as a forward you compete with 359 other forwards.

Ovechkin is not "competing" against Brad May in any sense of the word, despite them both being forwards.

Throw 1,000 more forwards from the AHL, SEL and KHL into the NHL and it is not going to affect Ovechkin's ranking at all, or make it any more impressive that he is #1.

Are you saying you would be more impressed with Howard if a few hundred inferior goalies were thrown into the NHL for him to beat up on?

[Finnish Wing 110]

Ovechkin is not "competing" against Brad May in any sense of the word, despite them both being forwards.

Throw 1,000 more forwards from the AHL, SEL and KHL into the NHL and it is not going to affect Ovechkin's ranking at all, or make it any more impressive that he is #1.

Are you saying you would be more impressed with Howard if a few hundred inferior goalies were thrown into the NHL for him to beat up on?

You yourself brought up these: Duchene #70 in scoring among forwards, Howard #14 in wins among goalies.

We could as well say that Howard really isn't competing with player X because he sucks. But that's not how it goes. It's doesn't take anything away from Duchene even if there are some bad forwards just like it doesn't take anything away from Howard competing with Toskala. The fact is that 360/70 > 60/14. That top10 thing still isn't working comparing goalies and forwards. I dunno why it's so hard to understand.

I'm not bashing Howard, or saying that Duchene is better candidate for the Calder than him.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[Frozen-Man 144]

If the goaltenders are "the cream of the crop", how come guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are the best players? There are some bad forwards, I agree. There are also some bad goalies. There are more forwards, but I'd say that the average skill is about the same on both positions. I wouldn't say goalies are automatically the best just because there is only one goalie per team on the ice. Sure, they have bigger responsibilities, but also bigger possibilities.

I am not saying that Ovechkin and Crosby are not two of the best players, what I am saying is that there is much more disparity between the top twenty and the bottom twenty forwards than there is between the top five and the bottom 6 goalies in the NHL. The much larger pool of forwards allows for much less talented players to be included in that pool. Compare the very best NHL forward and the very worst NHL forward, there is much more disparity in their play than the best NHL goalie and the worst NHL goalie.

I as a goalie you compete with 59 other goalies in the league but as a forward you compete with 359 other forwards.

I agree that you don't have to compete with as many people once you are in the group of 60 but that group is much harder to get into because only 60 are allowed in. That usually means that the overall quality is better because the group is much harder to get into. Again, That doesn't mean that Ovechkin is not the best player in the NHL but merely that the overall quality of NHL goaltenders is better than the overall quality of forwards.

[Finnish Wing 110]

I am not saying that Ovechkin and Crosby are not two of the best players, what I am saying is that there is much more disparity between the top twenty and the bottom twenty forwards than there is between the top five and the bottom 6 goalies in the NHL. The much larger pool of forwards allows for much less talented players to be included in that pool. Compare the very best NHL forward and the very worst NHL forward, there is much more disparity in their play than the best NHL goalie and the worst NHL goalie.

I agree that you don't have to compete with as many people once you are in the group of 60 but that group is much harder to get into because only 60 are allowed in. That usually means that the overall quality is better because the group is much harder to get into. Again, That doesn't mean that Ovechkin is not the best player in the NHL but merely that the overall quality of NHL goaltenders is better than the overall quality of forwards.

I dunno how can you determine how much Toskala really is worse than Luongo or May worse than Ovechkin. It just doesn't go like that. You compete with the other guys and if they suck, it usually means that you're doing well.

We already went through that. There are also much more forwards in the world competing to get to the NHL than there are goalies so it isn't significally harder or easier. It's about the same. Every European team, every junior team. They all usually have x goalies and 6x forwards. That means getting into that 360 pool as a forward is basically the same as getting into that 60 pool as a goalie. Therefore that top10 for goalies isn't the same than top10 for forwards.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[Frozen-Man 144]

I dunno how can you determine how much Toskala really is worse than Luongo or May worse than Ovechkin. It just doesn't go like that. You compete with the other guys and if they suck, it usually means that you're doing well.

We already went through that. There are also much more forwards in the world competing to get to the NHL than there are goalies so it isn't significally harder or easier. It's about the same. Every European team, every junior team. They all usually have x goalies and 6x forwards. That means getting into that 360 pool as a forward is basically the same as getting into that 60 pool as a goalie. Therefore that top10 for goalies isn't the same than top10 for forwards.

I guess that is just one of those things we will have to disagree on, I think that there is much more disparity between the best and the worst forwards than there is between the best and worst goalies. No real way to prove who is right.

[ben_usmc 253]

I think Duchene is going to win it, anytime he is on the ice he is a major threat

[egroen 384]

You yourself brought up these: Duchene #70 in scoring among forwards, Howard #14 in wins among goalies.

We could as well say that Howard really isn't competing with player X because he sucks. But that's not how it goes. It's doesn't take anything away from Duchene even if there are some bad forwards just like it doesn't take anything away from Howard competing with Toskala. The fact is that 360/70 > 60/14. That top10 thing still isn't working comparing goalies and forwards. I dunno why it's so hard to understand.

I'm not bashing Howard, or saying that Duchene is better candidate for the Calder than him.

You have an extremely myopic view...

Take the top million goalies in the world and Howard is in the Top 10 right now.

Take the top million forwards in the world and Duchene is in the Top 100.

Which is more impressive?

Edited February 11, 2010 by egroen

[Finnish Wing 110]

You have an extremely myopic view...

Take the top million goalies in the world and Howard is in the Top 10 right now.

Take the top million forwards in the world and Duchene is in the Top 100.

Which is more impressive?

No need to change the perspective for your advantage. Take every player in the NHL whose last name isn't Howard and see if Jimmy Howard makes the list. Top million goalies is different than top million forwards. Plus we are talking about the NHL Calder trophy here. What happens outside NHL right now doesn't matter. There are about 6 times more forwards playing hockey in a team than there are goalies. That fact doesn't change.

Howard is #14 in wins and Duchene is #70 in points.

Do some people really think it isn't easier to be in the top10 as a goalie than as a forward? An example: Niklas Backstrom came in to the NHL as a 28-year old goalie, who had never played a single game in NA, but became a top10 goalie on his first season. How many forwards have been able to do something like that?

Edited February 11, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Why not look into percentiles?

I would think the goaltender playing like a bonafide starter (saving the team on many occassions like a top goaltender is supposed to do) is much more impressive than a forward getting second-liner points.

[Finnish Wing 110]

Why not look into percentiles?

I would think the goaltender playing like a bonafide starter (saving the team on many occassions like a top goaltender is supposed to do) is much more impressive than a forward getting second-liner points.

Yep, but we're not arguing about's Howard's performances here. At least I'm not. Maybe people think I am, because they are a bit aggressive.

Only thing I'm saying that being in a top x for goalie isn't the same than being in top x for forwards. I'm not taking anything away from Howard or saying that Duchene should win the Calder before him.

[Rufio 29]

You have an extremely myopic view...

Take the top million goalies in the world and Howard is in the Top 10 right now.

Take the top million forwards in the world and Duchene is in the Top 100.

Which is more impressive?

That makes no sense. You're saying someone is in the top 10 of the top million. Being in the top 10 makes being in the top million redundant.

You cannot seriously be using this as a point.

[ben_usmc 253]

No need to change the perspective for your advantage. Take every player in the NHL whose last name isn't Howard and see if Jimmy Howard makes the list. Top million goalies is different than top million forwards. Plus we are talking about the NHL Calder trophy here. What happens outside NHL right now doesn't matter. There are about 6 times more forwards playing hockey in a team than there are goalies. That fact doesn't change.

Howard is #14 in wins and Duchene is #70 in points.

Do some people really think it isn't easier to be in the top10 as a goalie than as a forward? An example: Niklas Backstrom came in to the NHL as a 28-year old goalie, who had never played a single game in NA, but became a top10 goalie on his first season. How many forwards have been able to do something like that?

Crosby/Malkin/OV/Kovalchuk, all had great rookie numbers. I'm just pointing out plenty of rookies come in and produce on offense also. I'd love for Howie to win, but I don't think he will

[egroen 384]

No need to change the perspective for your advantage. Take every player in the NHL whose last name isn't Howard and see if Jimmy Howard makes the list. Top million goalies is different than top million forwards. Plus we are talking about the NHL Calder trophy here. What happens outside NHL right now doesn't matter. There are about 6 times more forwards playing hockey in a team than there are goalies. That fact doesn't change.

Howard is #14 in wins and Duchene is #70 in points.

Do some people really think it isn't easier to be in the top10 as a goalie than as a forward? An example: Niklas Backstrom came in to the NHL as a 28-year old goalie, who had never played a single game in NA, but became a top10 goalie on his first season. How many forwards have been able to do something like that?

This is such a weird conversation....

So because there are simply more forward positions in the NHL are Top 10 forwards automatically more impressive than Top 10 defenseman as well? What a strange way of looking at things.

I'm not changing the perspective at all -- the very best hockey players in the world are in the NHL, can we agree on that?

So a top player at his position in the NHL is a top player at his position in the world, right?

So saying Howard is Top 10 out of 12/30/60/1,000/1,000,000 goalies is a true statement.

I can't believe you are devaluing the goalie position in the NHL simply because you don't have a bunch of scrubs like Kopecky playing goalie in the NHL.

[Stevie Y 0]

This is such a weird conversation....

So because there are simply more forward positions in the NHL are Top 10 forwards automatically more impressive than Top 10 defenseman as well? What a strange way of looking at things.

I'm not changing the perspective at all -- the very best hockey players in the world are in the NHL, can we agree on that?

So a top player at his position in the NHL is a top player at his position in the world, right?

So saying Howard is Top 10 out of 12/30/60/1,000/1,000,000 goalies is a true statement.

I can't believe you are devaluing the goalie position in the NHL simply because you don't have a bunch of scrubs like Kopecky playing goalie in the NHL.

I will try to explain the point this way:

There are 12 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies in a team. Do you agree that the percentage of kids / players in general that start playing hockey "roughly" equals this distribution between the different positions? In this case being in the top 10 goalies is not as impressive as being in the top 10 forwards simply because you face less competitors. However, being in the top 10 percent is obviously equallz impressive for goalies and forwards. Does that make sense?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I will try to explain the point this way:

There are 12 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies in a team. Do you agree that the percentage of kids / players in general that start playing hockey "roughly" equals this distribution between the different positions? In this case being in the top 10 goalies is not as impressive as being in the top 10 forwards simply because you face less competitors. However, being in the top 10 percent is obviously equallz impressive for goalies and forwards. Does that make sense?

You are also aware that the talent pool for goaltenders is less diluted than forwards, causing the competition to be higher in comparison...

[Stevie Y 0]

You are also aware that the talent pool for goaltenders is less diluted than forwards, causing the competition to be higher in comparison...

And why do you think this is the case? Do only "more talented" kids start playing as a goalie? My guess would be that the talent is spread according to a normal distribution among all the different positions as it usually always is as the population becomes big enough. So I dont see a reason why the goalies pool should be less diluted...