Should Valtteri Filppula be traded?

[eva unit zero 271]

Filppula isn't performing up to the second-line center par level Steve Yzerman set in 1993-94.

Of course, there are only a handful of forwards in the league capable of playing at that level, so it's not really fair. And that really is the essence of the Filppula debate, isn't it?

[dragonballgtz 273]

The Red Wings REALLY like Filppula for what he brings to the table:

-Center

-Good enough center who provides option of playing the Euro Twins together

-Mature, willing to learn

-Great work ethic

-Very defensively conscious

-Has talent on the offensive end

-Great skater

-Can play on the 2nd line

-Can play on the PP and PK

-Can play 16-19 minutes a game

-Great fit in the Red Wings system

I'm probably forgetting some things but my main point is that the Wings are not going to trade him unless they get someone (especially a center) who can provide an equal or better package, not to mention his price tag. I have yet to hear ANYONE present a solid case for a plausible, better option.

You guys already have your bias and that's great. Show me something worthwhile.

And if he continues to play the way he is his price tag won't go up.

[RusDRW 155]

Who's an offensive winger (preferably a 1st/2nd line tweener) that you think we could trade Flip for?

Flip+Kindl+pick for Pavelski

[Nev 1,085]

Filppula isn't performing up to the second-line center par level Steve Yzerman set in 1993-94.

Of course, there are only a handful of forwards in the league capable of playing at that level, so it's not really fair. And that really is the essence of the Filppula debate, isn't it?

This is the problem in a nutshell - its cap world now. Its not like the 90s when the top teams packed a powerful 1-2 punch of two #1 centres: Yzerman-Fedorov, Sakic-Forsberg, Modano-Niewendyk. The only team to go the 1-2 route is Pittsburgh and they've had no end of troubles finding a decent set of wingers to complement Crosby & Malkin. And as soon as they do, they'll lose them as free agents because they won't be able to afford to keep them.

So you can rank Flip 14th out of 16 playoff teams #2 centres, but how do those other teams wingers & d-corps stack up? Because you can't have it all anymore, and the cap forces you to rob Peter to pay Paul. But considering we're 1st in points & goals I think we're a pretty balanced team

[Echolalia 2,961]

I wouldn't mind seeing Jordan Staal in a Wings uniform, if it means saying goodbye to Flip.

[Datsyerberger 279]

I wouldn't mind seeing Jordan Staal in a Wings uniform, if it means saying goodbye to Flip.

In other words, there's no reason to move Flip?

[Datsyerberger 279]

Flip+Kindl+pick for Pavelski

Remind me why the Sharks want to trade Pavelski.

[gcom007 1,465]

last year flip got injured in late october. not even a full month into the season. to say he's been less impressive this season at this point than last season is

I'm not talking on a game to game basis. I'm saying that when Flip played last year, he was playing better than he did this year, plain and simple. Compare his point pace this year and last for an easy example of this. He's gotta be about 10-15 points below what he could've been on pace for last year over 82 games. His shot is still terrible (unless he's aiming for the crest with weak wrist shots...) and that's not going to help him convert opportunities into goals too often.

At the same time though, I did suggest last year that had Flip not gotten injured, he might've trailed off on one of his many slow periods and dropped more than a few points off his pace. He's a streaky player. Who knows about last year at this point, but he is well below his PPG pace this year at this point. Try a little harder next time before you start dropping the smilies...

[Datsyerberger 279]

I'm not talking on a game to game basis. I'm saying that when Flip played last year, he was playing better than he did this year, plain and simple. Compare his point pace this year and last for an easy example of this. He's gotta be about 10-15 points below what he could've been on pace for last year over 82 games. His shot is still terrible (unless he's aiming for the crest with weak wrist shots...) and that's not going to help him convert opportunities into goals too often.

Strangely enough, though he's taken few shots relative to his TOI, his shooting % is almost 15%, which is well above the league average for 2nd line+ forwards. I suspect that his shot is actually fairly decent, which comes from watching him play as well... but $#@% he needs to shoot more sometimes. Especially given his usual linemates (Bert, Franzen, Cleary)... dammit, man, just put the puck on the net and let the big guys go collect some garbage.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Datsyerberger

[Buppy 1,720]

I'm not talking on a game to game basis. I'm saying that when Flip played last year, he was playing better than he did this year, plain and simple. Compare his point pace this year and last for an easy example of this. He's gotta be about 10-15 points below what he could've been on pace for last year over 82 games. His shot is still terrible (unless he's aiming for the crest with weak wrist shots...) and that's not going to help him convert opportunities into goals too often.

At the same time though, I did suggest last year that had Flip not gotten injured, he might've trailed off on one of his many slow periods and dropped more than a few points off his pace. He's a streaky player. Who knows about last year at this point, but he is well below his PPG pace this year at this point. Try a little harder next time before you start dropping the smilies...

He's on pace for 47-48 points this year. Last year his full season pace was 52-53 points. Before his injury last year, he had 6 points in 11 games, a little below his current pace.

Yes, he's streaky. Most players are, especially in his price range. But he's also capable of extended 'good' streaks, like his stretch of 27 points in 31 games last year.

[titanium2 867]

Flip+Kindl+pick for Pavelski

See?? Was it really that hard to offer up a decent suggestion you Filppula glass half empty people? I mean, sure, in reality, San Jose won't get rid of Pavelski. But I would say he is a 2nd line center with a cap hit ($4mil) and talent that could reasonably fit on the Red Wings. He has at least decent enough numbers to shut up the people who only look at offensive stats.

The fact that SJ simply won't get rid of Pavelski doesn't make it a particularly good suggestion but nobody here could even come up with something as good as that one. I mean, the idea for Sharp was kind of decent but he's probably better for the Red Wings if he doesn't have to worry about his centerman duties. But Pavelski at least not a bad suggestion. Now this thread has a little progress and substance other than arguments like "There are better options" without offering examples.

[nate94gt 134]

I'm not talking on a game to game basis. I'm saying that when Flip played last year, he was playing better than he did this year, plain and simple. Compare his point pace this year and last for an easy example of this. He's gotta be about 10-15 points below what he could've been on pace for last year over 82 games. His shot is still terrible (unless he's aiming for the crest with weak wrist shots...) and that's not going to help him convert opportunities into goals too often.

At the same time though, I did suggest last year that had Flip not gotten injured, he might've trailed off on one of his many slow periods and dropped more than a few points off his pace. He's a streaky player. Who knows about last year at this point, but he is well below his PPG pace this year at this point. Try a little harder next time before you start dropping the smilies...

Aww the smiley upset you. How cute. Here's another one

[Buppy 1,720]

See?? Was it really that hard to offer up a decent suggestion you Filppula glass half empty people? I mean, sure, in reality, San Jose won't get rid of Pavelski. But I would say he is a 2nd line center with a cap hit ($4mil) and talent that could reasonably fit on the Red Wings. He has at least decent enough numbers to shut up the people who only look at offensive stats.

The fact that SJ simply won't get rid of Pavelski doesn't make it a particularly good suggestion but nobody here could even come up with something as good as that one. I mean, the idea for Sharp was kind of decent but he's probably better for the Red Wings if he doesn't have to worry about his centerman duties. But Pavelski at least not a bad suggestion. Now this thread has a little progress and substance other than arguments like "There are better options" without offering examples.

I don't know that Pavelski (or even Sharp) is a big enough upgrade to be worth an extra million a year, either. We could be pretty tight with the cap next year.

I don't think a 1 for 1 tradeoff will really get us anywhere. Our best chance for a real upgrade is for cheap, young guys like Mursak, Emmerton, Tatar to take full-time roles, allowing us to move guys like Flip and Hudler for someone like Semin.

[Guest Heaten]

If Ken Holland was to suggest trading players while being #1 in the league and favorite to with the Stanley Cup, he would be FIRED immediately... as he should be.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Heaten

[Datsyerberger 279]

If Ken Holland was to suggest trading players while being #1 in the league and favorite to with the Stanley Cup, he would be FIRED immediately... as he should be.

But can't you see how terrible we're doing with Flip as our 2nd line centers? Those 4 GWGs? Terrible.

[Z and D for the C 712]

So you would admit that he USED to be a second line forward, but at 26 is now past his prime?

I think an answer to this would be pretty rad.

[gcom007 1,465]

Strangely enough, though he's taken few shots relative to his TOI, his shooting % is almost 15%, which is well above the league average for 2nd line+ forwards. I suspect that his shot is actually fairly decent, which comes from watching him play as well... but $#@% he needs to shoot more sometimes. Especially given his usual linemates (Bert, Franzen, Cleary)... dammit, man, just put the puck on the net and let the big guys go collect some garbage.

Even his most devoted fans aren't quick to praise his shot. If he shot more with that mediocre shot of his, he'd have a far worse shooting percentage. On top of that, oftentimes when he does shoot the goalie easily swallows it up, hence why I think he doesn't shoot as much. If you habitually hit the crest and fail to generate rebound chances on your shots, you're all the less likely to shoot. He's not a sniper in any way, shape or form, plain and simple. Look at the goals he scores; they're not sniper goals.

He's on pace for 47-48 points this year. Last year his full season pace was 52-53 points. Before his injury last year, he had 6 points in 11 games, a little below his current pace.

Yes, he's streaky. Most players are, especially in his price range. But he's also capable of extended 'good' streaks, like his stretch of 27 points in 31 games last year.

Until the end of last season, he was having his most consistent year when he wasn't injured. He's already had 2 significant cold streaks this year. If the inconsistency keeps up, he'll be back down to that 40ish point pace before too long.

What still bothers me more though is that he hasn't proven that he can make the guys around him better. If he's going to be a 2nd line guy on our team, he needs to keep up with the guys around him. I'd rather have Dats and Z split up and have our 2 superstar centers playing with our best wingers and then have a 3rd line that's more what we were dealing with early on when Modano was here. Solid, nothing spectacular but solid. Find those value guys that give their all and contribute. That's what makes the Wings work so well.

We bring in these guys like Eaves that make a quarter of what Flip makes yet they still play a big role (PK and GOALS!!!). Who's really a better value right now? Eaves at $750k who can kill penalties and score goals in a limited role. He's got 11 goals and 3 assists for 14 points with about half of Flips ice time all while playing on the checking line and killing penalties! How much power play time does he get? How much does Flip get? Oh yeah, 2nd line, twice as many minutes, all to have 9 goals and 13 assists for 22 points; again he makes four times as much as Eaves.

Perhaps the Wings greatest strength is finding these seemingly forgotten guys or older guys and signing them cheap and getting a lot out of them. Flip makes a lot of money proportional to the Wings salary system and yet he really brings the least to the table to suggest he deserves it. He's a really solid player and a great 2-way guy who could probably be a Selke nominee if not a winner on another team, but on this team, he's overpaid for what he brings. I'd rather see his salary go elsewhere more for that reason than any other.

Again, I wouldn't move him this year for any other reason than clearing salary, and I would never, ever, ever rip him if he was making around $2 million a year. But at $3 million, he's just overpaid for a Wing. I don't think he deserves it and I honestly don't like the precedent it sets for young, unproven guys. Sure, other teams would give him that and probably more, and at $3 million he's a good value on some teams, but that's why other teams are simply not as good as the Red Wings are every year.

And if you don't still believe that the Wings are not satisfied with his performance relative to the expectations, give me five minutes and I'll dig up the almost bi-monthly articles where Holland and/or Babcock is interviewed saying the same stuff as always: he needs to step up, he needs to shoot more, he needs to have a breakout year. Oh yeah, this is supposed to be his what, 3rd or 4th breakout year now? If the Wings had known it would go like this, I don't believe for a second they'd sign him at $3 million for 5 years again and I don't believe he'll get $3 million from the Wings again if he doesn't actually have that ever-rumored "breakout year."

Again, I really don't dislike Flip or think he's a horrible player, I just don't think he's worth anything close to $3 million on the Wings.

Aww the smiley upset you. How cute. Here's another one

Not so much, just noting that you jumped the gun. You should save the cocky smilies for Mindfly or the "doom and gloom" threads.

If Ken Holland was to suggest trading players while being #1 in the league and favorite to with the Stanley Cup, he would be FIRED immediately... as he should be.

Not saying we really need to right now, but you could've said this same thing about Scotty Bowman in the 90's before we started actually winning Cups and you would've been dead wrong. Playoffs and regular season are different beasts and sometimes you just have to look ahead at other factors, more than ever now with the salary cap. We're not in dire need of any trades right now for certain, but regular season status and predictions are only worth so much when it really comes down to it. Sometimes a good move is just a good move; when opportunity knocks to improve on what's there or sustain what's there while preparing for future salary cap situations, you just might make a move...even if you're #1 in the league and a Cup favorite.

But can't you see how terrible we're doing with Flip as our 2nd line centers? Those 4 GWGs? Terrible.

(Bitterness Alert: pure bitterness taints this thought...)

Yeah, sure, but we'd be doing even better if we dumped Flip and signed Hossa. We'd be more well-rounded and have a true two-way superstar winger signed for around $5 million a year for life. And again, at that point, it's way, way easier to split up Dats and Z and get a ton of output from your top 2 lines with absolutely no defensive issues to speak of.

And look, if we'd gotten rid of Flip and signed Hossa, we'd still be tied!!!

[Z and D for the C 712]

gcom, you continually say that we should split up Z and Pav, yet each of the past three years, we ended the playoffs with Z and D being put back together after trying them split up. What does that tell you? Our team is best when they are together, period.

[kook_10 1,705]

It's not necessarily fair to compare people who are bargains to people who are paid market value. No one has ever said Flip is cheap. That said, the only comparable player named here that could actually be bought for $3M is Dave Bolland which would be a sideways deal at best. Your argument, as is a lot of others with respect to Flip, seems to really be that he is just a misallocation of resources.

[titanium2 867]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L4x1wT9HlU

[Konnan511 1,736]

I love how people bring up cold streaks by Filppula, but we have two of the streakiest players on the league on this team, except they're paid first line money.

[Shaman 713]

I love how people bring up cold streaks by Filppula, but we have two of the streakiest players on the league on this team, except they're paid first line money.

Franzen and who else?

[dragonballgtz 273]

If I was to trade Flip it wouldn't be for a center more like a winger. I always liked Versteeg.

Edited January 3, 2011 by dragonballgtz

[gcom007 1,465]

gcom, you continually say that we should split up Z and Pav, yet each of the past three years, we ended the playoffs with Z and D being put back together after trying them split up. What does that tell you? Our team is best when they are together, period.

2008 was a complete team effort from goalie, offense and defense. Ozzie had what, a 1.5ish GAA??? We didn't need to score many goals to win. Cleary was terrible and Franzen was out down the stretch with that concussion. It limited our options a bit. But we won this year because every part generally worked.

2009 was a disaster that somehow became a masterpiece despite a game 7 Finals loss. I thought it was a better run because we never should've gone as far as we did with all the injuries we had. Datsyuk didn't play in 6 or 7 games and scored 1 goal. He was beat up bad, as was Hossa. They weren't capable of playing up to their ability and at that point, there's no way Datsyuk can carry a line on his own. That's the problem. Aside from our 5-0 blowout in Game 5, we only scored 6 goals in the last 5 games. We ended struggling with Dats and Z together. Doesn't seem like that's our "best" either, nor a good supporting example. After all, with as many injuries as we had, we never should've gone as far as we did. That was mostly on Osgood who was a win away from a Conn Smythe for playing even better than he did in 2008 with far less help.

And in 2010, when were we ever at our "best" in the playoffs? I seem to remember us getting our asses kicked by San Jose in the 2nd round. So how does that work?

Think of our top 2 scoring lines being centered by Dats and Z, each with a sniper like Hossa/Franzen as well as another solid winger like Cleary/Hudler (pre-Russia)/Holmstrom/Bertuzzi. Other teams are going to have a hell of a time playing against those lines. Then you throw in a 3rd line centered by a Modano type with probably someone like Bertuzzi (Huds can sign elsewhere in my world) and maybe an Eaves/Miller in the mix. Solid, cheap, capable. Then you've got a great checking line with the Eaves/Miller/Draper/Helm/Abs etc...whoever would be around in such a world.

Loose idea of current (if healthy) lines:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Zetterberg - $14-15 million

Cleary Filppula Franzen - $10 million

Hudler Modano Bertuzzi - $7 million

Draper Helm Eaves - $3 million

Total Salary - $34-35 million or so...

Loose idea of lines and salaries of what I'd rather see:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Hossa - $13-14 million

Cleary Zetterberg Franzen - $13 million

Eaves Modano Bertuzzi - $3-4 million

Draper Helm Miller - $3 million

Total Salary - $32-34 million or so...

I like those lines better and there'd still probably be a bit of money to spend up if we would've traded Flip and not signed Hudler. Not only do I feel that there's going to be more balance on the top 2 lines, I also feel like each line is going to be better defensively. The top two lines would be as strong on defense as offense while the 3rd line would benefit from Eaves moving up as he not only can score, he's also a solid guy at both ends of the ice. Plus, the 3rd line would have less pressure on them after teams chase around our top 2 lines. Our checking line is always strong for a checking line and Eaves and Miller would never have to sit out games...WHICH IS A CRIME!!!!!!!!!

I just see things being a lot more balanced with our inconsistent, over-priced mid-level players out of the picture. Spend a little extra to keep a guy like Hossa around who's willing to buy into the system on and off the ice and let Kenny and the scouts do the brilliant work they do in bringing in the overlooked and the forgotten vets on the cheap to round out a great offensive group. I think we score more goals and prevent more goals with those lines, and I think we skip unnecessary line-shuffling that occurs when you're waiting on your inconsistent guys to decide to produce.

Know where the brunt of your scoring comes from. Know where your support scoring comes from, Never compromise on defense. Everybody has a defined role and a spot that suits them. Simple.

[eva unit zero 271]

Loose idea of current (if healthy) lines:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Zetterberg - $14-15 million

Cleary Filppula Franzen - $10 million

Hudler Modano Bertuzzi - $7 million

Draper Helm Eaves - $3 million

Total Salary - $34-35 million or so...

Modano's playing style and Hudler's being put together is the worst possible fit of two players on this team. The beginning of this season is a perfect example. Combined with the fact that Modano was new to the team, and Hudler had been gone a year and so was basically new, you have two players who have no developed chemistry with each other or the surrounding roster trying to shoehorn together two completely incompatible styles of play into one line.

Your lines would be much more effective with Hudler and Cleary swapped, and no this is not a "go-Hudler" comment. Hudler has always played well with both Flip and Franzen, and when put together this season Franzen/Flip/Huds immediately clicked. Cleary/Modano/Bertuzzi was also an effective line, if you recall. So if we assemble DZH based on the fact that line has had great chemistry in the past, why not use other lines that have worked well together?

Also... you would seriously play Draper over Miller? Drapes has looked better this year than last, but he's simply not as good as Miller.

Loose idea of lines and salaries of what I'd rather see:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Hossa - $13-14 million

Cleary Zetterberg Franzen - $13 million

Eaves Modano Bertuzzi - $3-4 million

Draper Helm Miller - $3 million

Total Salary - $32-34 million or so...

I like those lines better and there'd still probably be a bit of money to spend up if we would've traded Flip and not signed Hudler. Not only do I feel that there's going to be more balance on the top 2 lines, I also feel like each line is going to be better defensively. The top two lines would be as strong on defense as offense while the 3rd line would benefit from Eaves moving up as he not only can score, he's also a solid guy at both ends of the ice. Plus, the 3rd line would have less pressure on them after teams chase around our top 2 lines. Our checking line is always strong for a checking line and Eaves and Miller would never have to sit out games...WHICH IS A CRIME!!!!!!!!!

The top line definitely wouldn't be better defensively than it is now. Hossa is very good in his own end, but he's not Z in that respect. Compared to your other posted lines, the second line drops Z in Flip's spot, which is an improvement at both ends, the third line has Eaves instead of Hudler, and the fourth line has Miller instead of Eaves.