Should Valtteri Filppula be traded?

[gcom007 1,465]

I love how people bring up cold streaks by Filppula, but we have two of the streakiest players on the league on this team, except they're paid first line money.

Franzen's cap hit is less than a million more than Flip's and by the end of the year he'll likely be leading our team in goals scored by a healthy margin. Not only that, he'll likely have almost as many goals as Flip has points if both stay healthy. Plus, so long as he's healthy in the playoffs, he's a big game player.

And really, you can't compare his streaks or Zetterbergs or Dats or whoever you're thinking as they're simply rarely as notable even proportionally. Last year was an off year for nearly everyone on this team so you really can't use that as a measure. Between losing so many guys all at once in the off-season and then losing so many to injuries, there just was little chance for this team to be successful and get something going. Franzen never came back 100% either. Zetterberg may underachieve offensively at times, but he still brings so much to the team and has a tendency of finishing on a strong note. But with these guys, at worst there's still a fairly steady stream of offense throughout the season.

Oh, and I hope you're just referring to offense and not Lids or Raffi...

With Flip though, he's never putting up big numbers by seasons end to compensate for any hint of streaky play that may exist. Look at last year towards the end of the season. In 3 games in a row, he puts up 4 goals and 8 points. The 5 games prior to that he musters up 1 assist while in the 9 games after that he's only able to add 1 assist. Prior to that rather bizarre ending to the season, he was playing fairly consistently compared to his previous seasons. But it's always something with him. He has a solid year when healthy and then has a 3 game burst among 14 games of pure slump despite the team around him playing better than they had at any point in the season.

And the streaky comments wouldn't mean as much if the basis for the idea that he can put up higher offensive numbers weren't based on streaky periods of play in which he's hot for a few games before and after being cold, cold and cold...he's yet to have a full season in which he's demonstrated that he can consistently produce. Every other guy making more money than him has had the end of season point totals to take away from the "streaky" comments. He's still never had more than 40 points and he's yet to put in a full season of at least semi-consistent offensive play. Until he delivers a season that allows you to change the nature of what is currently an absolute fact, you are going to have a hard time logically defending the idea of him being a consistent offensive player.

[gcom007 1,465]

Modano's playing style and Hudler's being put together is the worst possible fit of two players on this team. The beginning of this season is a perfect example. Combined with the fact that Modano was new to the team, and Hudler had been gone a year and so was basically new, you have two players who have no developed chemistry with each other or the surrounding roster trying to shoehorn together two completely incompatible styles of play into one line.

Your lines would be much more effective with Hudler and Cleary swapped, and no this is not a "go-Hudler" comment. Hudler has always played well with both Flip and Franzen, and when put together this season Franzen/Flip/Huds immediately clicked. Cleary/Modano/Bertuzzi was also an effective line, if you recall. So if we assemble DZH based on the fact that line has had great chemistry in the past, why not use other lines that have worked well together?

Also... you would seriously play Draper over Miller? Drapes has looked better this year than last, but he's simply not as good as Miller.

The top line definitely wouldn't be better defensively than it is now. Hossa is very good in his own end, but he's not Z in that respect. Compared to your other posted lines, the second line drops Z in Flip's spot, which is an improvement at both ends, the third line has Eaves instead of Hudler, and the fourth line has Miller instead of Eaves.

My current lines based on the current roster of healthy players is more to demonstrate cap than ideas for lines. I should've noted that. I agree with your assessment completely of what the actual lines ought to look like.

I would absolutely prefer Miller over Draper (and Abs over Draper on "dream" lines). Again, with my lines being more focused on demonstrating the cap spread (my unspoken intention), I included Draper because there's nothing we can do about his $1.5 million hit. He retires, it's on the books. He sits, it's on the books. I was just trying to show what was possible financially even with less than ideal contracts still hanging around.

I know Hossa-Dats or Hossa-Z would be a step down from Dats-Z, but I'm going more for balance here in splitting them up. While it wouldn't be as good as Dats-Z, it's still better than most. Hossa is strong enough in the defensive end that in the right circumstances, I think he could get himself nominated for a Selke.

While adding Hudler in could potentially yield better offensive results, I still like the idea of going with guys that are a bit more proven and/or cheap. These mid-level earners are far too often disappointing on the Wings because we're able to find guys that make half as much who are often better assets to the team.

I'd rather give Eaves an opportunity to do more as I think he has a lot of potential and he's a more balanced player who can solidify a line at both ends of the ice. Consider this...

Eaves is 16th on the team in total time on ice.

He's 17th on the team in even strength time on ice.

He's 20th on the team in power play time on ice.

He's 4th on the team in short-handed time on ice.

And despite all of this, he's 5th on the team in average goals per game, behind only Cleary, Franzen, Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

He's tied for 5th on the team in goals and is 1 ahead of Flip despite playing in 7 less games. Oh yeah, Flip's had nearly 50x the amount of power play time as Eaves too.

Oh, and to be clear, Flip's played 17 minutes short-handed while Eaves has played 94 minutes short-handed.

I know this spun off of a Hudler comment, and while it applies to Hudler even more, no one's really arguing that hasn't been an epic disappointment this year.

Again, Eaves cap hit is literally 25% of Flip's cap hit.

Just sayin'...

[eva unit zero 271]

My current lines based on the current roster of healthy players is more to demonstrate cap than ideas for lines. I should've noted that. I agree with your assessment completely of what the actual lines ought to look like.

I would absolutely prefer Miller over Draper (and Abs over Draper on "dream" lines). Again, with my lines being more focused on demonstrating the cap spread (my unspoken intention), I included Draper because there's nothing we can do about his $1.5 million hit. He retires, it's on the books. He sits, it's on the books. I was just trying to show what was possible financially even with less than ideal contracts still hanging around.

I know Hossa-Dats or Hossa-Z would be a step down from Dats-Z, but I'm going more for balance here in splitting them up. While it wouldn't be as good as Dats-Z, it's still better than most. Hossa is strong enough in the defensive end that in the right circumstances, I think he could get himself nominated for a Selke.

While adding Hudler in could potentially yield better offensive results, I still like the idea of going with guys that are a bit more proven and/or cheap. These mid-level earners are far too often disappointing on the Wings because we're able to find guys that make half as much who are often better assets to the team.

I'd rather give Eaves an opportunity to do more as I think he has a lot of potential and he's a more balanced player who can solidify a line at both ends of the ice. Consider this...

Eaves is 16th on the team in total time on ice.

He's 17th on the team in even strength time on ice.

He's 20th on the team in power play time on ice.

He's 4th on the team in short-handed time on ice.

And despite all of this, he's 5th on the team in average goals per game, behind only Cleary, Franzen, Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

He's tied for 5th on the team in goals and is 1 ahead of Flip despite playing in 7 less games. Oh yeah, Flip's had nearly 50x the amount of power play time as Eaves too.

Oh, and to be clear, Flip's played 17 minutes short-handed while Eaves has played 94 minutes short-handed.

I know this spun off of a Hudler comment, and while it applies to Hudler even more, no one's really arguing that hasn't been an epic disappointment this year.

Again, Eaves cap hit is literally 25% of Flip's cap hit.

Just sayin'...

As far as Eaves is concerned, I've been supporting the idea of him getting more ES time for a long time. I took many a shot for suggesting Eaves could play wing on a scoring line (Homer/Dats/Eaves was specifically what I suggested) back in the late summer when most posters around here were debating lines that included Mattias Ritola.

[Guest Food Stamps]

Two good games in a row for Filp. Good to see him actually doing something offensivily to get points, instead of having Franzen deflect it off him/getting lucky while losing the puck. I think he will keep his good play up for a few more games, before having 3 points in 8 or something like that.

[Buppy 1,720]

...

Until the end of last season, he was having his most consistent year when he wasn't injured. He's already had 2 significant cold streaks this year. If the inconsistency keeps up, he'll be back down to that 40ish point pace before too long.

What still bothers me more though is that he hasn't proven that he can make the guys around him better. If he's going to be a 2nd line guy on our team, he needs to keep up with the guys around him. I'd rather have Dats and Z split up and have our 2 superstar centers playing with our best wingers and then have a 3rd line that's more what we were dealing with early on when Modano was here. Solid, nothing spectacular but solid. Find those value guys that give their all and contribute. That's what makes the Wings work so well.

We bring in these guys like Eaves that make a quarter of what Flip makes yet they still play a big role (PK and GOALS!!!). Who's really a better value right now? Eaves at $750k who can kill penalties and score goals in a limited role. He's got 11 goals and 3 assists for 14 points with about half of Flips ice time all while playing on the checking line and killing penalties! How much power play time does he get? How much does Flip get? Oh yeah, 2nd line, twice as many minutes, all to have 9 goals and 13 assists for 22 points; again he makes four times as much as Eaves.

Perhaps the Wings greatest strength is finding these seemingly forgotten guys or older guys and signing them cheap and getting a lot out of them. Flip makes a lot of money proportional to the Wings salary system and yet he really brings the least to the table to suggest he deserves it. He's a really solid player and a great 2-way guy who could probably be a Selke nominee if not a winner on another team, but on this team, he's overpaid for what he brings. I'd rather see his salary go elsewhere more for that reason than any other.

Again, I wouldn't move him this year for any other reason than clearing salary, and I would never, ever, ever rip him if he was making around $2 million a year. But at $3 million, he's just overpaid for a Wing. I don't think he deserves it and I honestly don't like the precedent it sets for young, unproven guys. Sure, other teams would give him that and probably more, and at $3 million he's a good value on some teams, but that's why other teams are simply not as good as the Red Wings are every year.

And if you don't still believe that the Wings are not satisfied with his performance relative to the expectations, give me five minutes and I'll dig up the almost bi-monthly articles where Holland and/or Babcock is interviewed saying the same stuff as always: he needs to step up, he needs to shoot more, he needs to have a breakout year. Oh yeah, this is supposed to be his what, 3rd or 4th breakout year now? If the Wings had known it would go like this, I don't believe for a second they'd sign him at $3 million for 5 years again and I don't believe he'll get $3 million from the Wings again if he doesn't actually have that ever-rumored "breakout year."

Again, I really don't dislike Flip or think he's a horrible player, I just don't think he's worth anything close to $3 million on the Wings.

...

Yeah, sure, but we'd be doing even better if we dumped Flip and signed Hossa. We'd be more well-rounded and have a true two-way superstar winger signed for around $5 million a year for life. And again, at that point, it's way, way easier to split up Dats and Z and get a ton of output from your top 2 lines with absolutely no defensive issues to speak of.

...

Sure, IF he has another cold streak right away he'll be back down to a 40 point pace. Or, IF he has another 8 points in 3 games like he did once last year he'll be on a 60 point pace...

What bothers me is the mentality that to be 'worth it', a player has to be a bargain, and to be good a player has to be a star. The Wings aren't as special as you think. We can't just get any player we want at whatever price we want. No team has or ever will have a full roster of bargains.

And the Wings working so well also has a lot to do with finding guys like Filppula late in the 3rd round (early 4th really) to come in and play valuable roles, even when they're paying him market value. Comparing him to Eaves is silly. No doubt Eaves has been great so far, and was solid last year. And if he keeps it up he'll be able to demand a similar price tag, much like Cleary. Hey, Datsyuk makes almost 9 times as much and only has one more goal than Eaves, better dump him too. [edit to add: Funny that you complain about Flip's streakiness and question people valuing him based on his hot streaks, when you're doing exactly that with Eaves. You do know that over 1/4 of his goals, and almost 1/3 his points came in his last game? Half his points in the last 7 games?]

This is the 6th year of the salary cap. For the first 2-4 years we had guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler, and Filppula among others on early bargain contracts (at least relative to how fast the cap went up in those first few years). I don't think you can really say the Wings have any proven 'salary system'. I think you can say we've drafted well, and got lucky a few times with Cleary, Eaves, and Sammy while he was here, and had success with guys at fair market prices, like Cleary now, Rafi, and Stuart.

And I would like to see any evidence that Babs or Kenny aren't satisfied with him. It sure doesn't show in all the praise (and minutes) he's gotten the past couple years. I don't think anyone in the organization has ever said he 'needs' a 'breakout' year, though I've heard people predict one. Last season was really the first it could have reasonbly been expected, and I think in a lot of ways it was a breakout. Despite the injury and playing a big part of the year with the likes of Leino, Williams, Miller, and Bert he still put up decent numbers; career high ppg despite the season ending cold streak.

I also don't think some people really have the right definition of breakout in regards to Flip. He's on pace for close to 50 points. That IS a breakout (or at least, proves that last year was a breakout type year). Or maybe I should say that 'breakout' isn't really a term that should be used to describe the expectations for a guy making $3M who's already had a 40 point season. But some people seem to think he needs to get 60+ to earn his contract, or be deserving of a place on the team.

With everything he provides, he's worth $3M scoring 40-45. Scoring 60+ would turn him back in to a bargain. It would be great, even though if it happens we might not be able to afford to keep him on his next deal. I still think he's capable of 60+ (even this year, though I'd be surprised), but I wouldn't be disappointed if he only stays at his current pace.

And the Hossa thing needs to stop. There's no way we could have sqeezed in another $2M+ in cap that year.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Buppy

[Shaman 713]

This isn't cut and dry, nor am I saying we should trade him for anything to come along, there are infact only a very short list of players I think the wings should even consider. I myself voted to only trade him for a player that adds somethings the wings don't already have. Filppula does add a lot of great things to this team, when hes hot, hes a real force out there, and hes far above average defensively compared to anyone not named Staal, kesler, Datsyuk or Zetterberg. In fact I really believe this kid really could be in Selke conversation in the next few seasons, and thats part of the reason I started this thread, Filppula is the one player the wings could move, and get a lot of pieces back in return for without trading Dats or Z. I know I come off as an anti Flip guy, and thats mostly me being defensive, all I am trying to do is make the point that there are players, that while aren't as skilled in every area as Flip, could bring skill sets to this team that the wings lack.

[Konnan511 1,736]

This isn't cut and dry, nor am I saying we should trade him for anything to come along, there are infact only a very short list of players I think the wings should even consider. I myself voted to only trade him for a player that adds somethings the wings don't already have. Filppula does add a lot of great things to this team, when hes hot, hes a real force out there, and hes far above average defensively compared to anyone not named Staal, kesler, Datsyuk or Zetterberg. In fact I really believe this kid really could be in Selke conversation in the next few seasons, and thats part of the reason I started this thread, Filppula is the one player the wings could move, and get a lot of pieces back in return for without trading Dats or Z. I know I come off as an anti Flip guy, and thats mostly me being defensive, all I am trying to do is make the point that there are players, that while aren't as skilled in every area as Flip, could bring skill sets to this team that the wings lack.

If I wasn't on my iPhone I'd give you a +1 for finally be honest while making sense.

My only problem with thus thread is that it's 20 pages and it took 18 or 19 pages to come up with a trade that even remotely made sense and all I'm seeing still is "we should trade Filppula"...and there is nothing else added. That's like saying, "let's go do something" and then not offering up what you think would be entertaining to do. It's annoying and pointless to make a comment and not go anywhere with it, which is what this thread has been about save for about maybe a total of 20 posts.

[Buppy 1,720]

...

2009 was a disaster that somehow became a masterpiece despite a game 7 Finals loss. I thought it was a better run because we never should've gone as far as we did with all the injuries we had. Datsyuk didn't play in 6 or 7 games and scored 1 goal. He was beat up bad, as was Hossa. They weren't capable of playing up to their ability and at that point, there's no way Datsyuk can carry a line on his own. That's the problem. Aside from our 5-0 blowout in Game 5, we only scored 6 goals in the last 5 games. We ended struggling with Dats and Z together. Doesn't seem like that's our "best" either, nor a good supporting example. After all, with as many injuries as we had, we never should've gone as far as we did. That was mostly on Osgood who was a win away from a Conn Smythe for playing even better than he did in 2008 with far less help.

And in 2010, when were we ever at our "best" in the playoffs? I seem to remember us getting our asses kicked by San Jose in the 2nd round. So how does that work?

...

Loose idea of current (if healthy) lines:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Zetterberg - $14-15 million

Cleary Filppula Franzen - $10 million

Hudler Modano Bertuzzi - $7 million

Draper Helm Eaves - $3 million

Total Salary - $34-35 million or so...

Loose idea of lines and salaries of what I'd rather see:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Hossa - $13-14 million

Cleary Zetterberg Franzen - $13 million

Eaves Modano Bertuzzi - $3-4 million

Draper Helm Miller - $3 million

Total Salary - $32-34 million or so...

...

Seems like you're trying to say we did something wrong in '09 while at the same time essentially trying to build a worse version of that roster. Remember that part of the reason we did so well against Chicago and won the first two games against Pittsburgh that year was because of how well Filppula played in Datsyuk's absence.

And I don't know what that other guy is thinking; last year Pav and Hank were split for pretty much the entire playoffs, except maybe a few shifts here and there. Maybe we'd have been better off if we'd put them together...

I've already said that I agree in principle. I think a goal scorer would fit our needs better. But you don't need to say Flip is underperforming or overpaid to make that argument. I think doing so is inviting a lot more opposition than your idea deserves.

[Nev 1,085]

Franzen and who else?

I'm guessing Cleary.

[LULZ_DATSYUK 4]

get rid of Flip and get hossa back. flip is overrated big time

[dallas27 7]

This isn't meant to be a serious trade offer (because the team involved simply won't) but I'm interested to see what everyone thinks;

Detroit gets:

Ryan Getzlaf

Anaheim gets:

Johan Franzen

Valtteri Filppula

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

This isn't meant to be a serious trade offer (because the team involved simply won't) but I'm interested to see what everyone thinks;

Detroit gets:

Ryan Getzlaf

Anaheim gets:

Johan Franzen

Valtteri Filppula

As much as I would love to have Getz I wouldn't give up Franzen for him.

[eva unit zero 271]

As much as I would love to have Getz I wouldn't give up Franzen for him.

I would trade Franzen for Getzlaf straight up. I think Franzen and Flip might be more than he's worth though; but the basic deal is a good concept.

How about one of these:

1) Filppula and Franzen for Getzlaf and Koivu

2) Filppula and Franzen for Getzlaf and Sutton

3) Filppula, Franzen, and Salei for Getzlaf, Koivu, and Lilja

[kook_10 1,705]

I would trade Franzen for Getzlaf straight up. I think Franzen and Flip might be more than he's worth though; but the basic deal is a good concept.

How about one of these:

1) Filppula and Franzen for Getzlaf and Koivu

2) Filppula and Franzen for Getzlaf and Sutton

3) Filppula, Franzen, and Salei for Getzlaf, Koivu, and Lilja

Sorry to break it to you, but Getzlaf>>>Franzen.

[dallas27 7]

I would trade Franzen for Getzlaf straight up. I think Franzen and Flip might be more than he's worth though; but the basic deal is a good concept.

How about one of these:

1) Filppula and Franzen for Getzlaf and Koivu

2) Filppula and Franzen for Getzlaf and Sutton

3) Filppula, Franzen, and Salei for Getzlaf, Koivu, and Lilja

Normally I agree with you but not here. Franzen is 31 and Getzlaf is 25, you know as well as I do that's a huge difference. In order for them to even consider I feel you gotta throw some youth at them. So long as it's not The [Tatar] Sauce.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Sorry to break it to you, but Getzlaf>>>Franzen.

I don't disagree with that statement. That does not however mean that his worth to the Red Wings would be greater than Franzen's worth to the Red Wings. Getzlaf is a very multi-talented player and Franzen is primarily a goal scorer. The Red Wings need a guy who just knows how to put the puck in the net and Mule definitely serves that need. His last three year his goals per game were .45, .37 (bad injury that took some time to get back into the flow), and .48 (and unlike Getzlaf he also picks it up in the playoffs with .50, .52 and .81 the last three years). Getzlaf on the other hand had goals per game of .32, .29, and .31 (with no playoffs last year and then .31 and .33 the years before). The Wings have lots of play makers but not an abundance of finishers, while Getz is a great player (and we could use his snarl) I think Eva is spot on that Mule and Flip would be too much for the Wings to give up.

[eva unit zero 271]

Sorry to break it to you, but Getzlaf>>>Franzen.

You didn't catch the part where I said I would trade Franzen for Getzlaf, did you?

[kook_10 1,705]

You didn't catch the part where I said I would trade Franzen for Getzlaf, did you?

I caught the fantasy that predicated your argument, yes.

[AtomicPunk 296]

If I was to trade Flip it wouldn't be for a center more like a winger. I always liked Versteeg.

Rumor has it the Leafs have become disenchanted with Versteeg and the price is dropping a little every day. He could be had with the right package of players and picks, I think.

Another player who is underperforming and getting shuffled around is James Neal in Dallas. This would be a little harder for Kenny but this kid is IMO the kind of winger we should target IF we're looking to trade.

[titanium2 867]

Since his cold streak this year I came to the feeling that maybe Filppula's biggest supporters wouldn't actually see him discover his 55-65 point potential unless he was on a team that REALLY needed him to be that good. The Wings have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, etc. He might feel that he can just play a patient game because the bulk of the pressure is on them and not him. Now that Datsyuk and Cleary are out he feels the need to step up. But what about when they come back?

[Z and D for the C 712]

Since his cold streak this year I came to the feeling that maybe Filppula's biggest supporters wouldn't actually see him discover his 55-65 point potential unless he was on a team that REALLY needed him to be that good. The Wings have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, etc. He might feel that he can just play a patient game because the bulk of the pressure is on them and not him. Now that Datsyuk and Cleary are out he feels the need to step up. But what about when they come back?

You have a point, but I would still argue that his cold streak was a result of his linemates, and not him.

Rumor has it the Leafs have become disenchanted with Versteeg and the price is dropping a little every day. He could be had with the right package of players and picks, I think.

Getting Versteeg would be awesome, but trading Filppula for him would be a lateral move, if not making our team worse. People are underestimating how valuable having a second line center who isn't Z or Pav is. Now if Hudler doesn't pick up his slack and we could get him at the deadline for Hudler and a pick and/or prospect, it might be worth it.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Z and D for the C

[titanium2 867]

Now if Hudler doesn't pick up his slack and we could get him at the deadline for Hudler and a pick and/or prospect, it might be worth it.

s***storm's coming.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

What's that now for Flip, like 9 points in 9 games? 6 game point streak would be one of if not the highest of his career too. Really stepping up in the absence of Dats.

[Shaman 713]

You have a point, but I would still argue that his cold streak was a result of his linemates, and not him.

Getting Versteeg would be awesome, but trading Filppula for him would be a lateral move, if not making our team worse. People are underestimating how valuable having a second line center who isn't Z or Pav is. Now if Hudler doesn't pick up his slack and we could get him at the deadline for Hudler and a pick and/or prospect, it might be worth it.

I would say Hudler is starting to get better, hes finally putting up points and hes been going down to the boards and getting the puck so hes not invisible like he was earlier in the season.. that and if the wings got rid of Hudler who would serve bench and goalie penalties?

Edited January 5, 2011 by Shaman464

[titanium2 867]

I would say Hudler is starting to get better, hes finally putting up points and hes been going down to the boards and getting the puck so hes not invisible like he was earlier in the season.. that and if the wings got rid of Hudler who would serve bench and goalie penalties?

It was Bertuzzi for 09-10. Hehe.