Should Valtteri Filppula be traded?

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, Hudler will NEVER EVER EVER EVER play center on this wings team. Get that through your skull. It will NEVER happen. Give it up. Holmstrom would play center before Hudler. Franzen might get moved to center when we're injured (like when Flip was out), but that's only temporary.

I know we are deep at center, but that's mostly in the bottom 6. We have 3 forwards who are good enough to play top 6 center. 2 of those forwards should be together on the top line.

Hudler plays center before Filppula scores 60 points...

[Guest Crymson]

Hudler plays center before Filppula scores 60 points...

Well, right now Hudler has 20 points.

[Nev 1,085]

Hudler is not a center in the NHL. It doesn't matter if he played center in Europe for his junior team or whatever. He lacks the speed, defensive conscious and more than likely the faceoff ability to ever play center in the show. And since Franzen started scoring goals, he's far better at wing.

Losing Filppula for a goalie forces us to keep Pavel and Z on separate lines. Though Fil's offensive consistency is frustrating, he's extremely solid defensively and has a lot of speed through the middle. We simply don't have another player who can adequately pivot the second line. In a cap world, Filppula's a very good second line center. Hopefully he hasn't reach his offensive ceiling quite yet.

This. This, this, this, this this. A thousand milllion zillion times this.

And as for Hudler playing center......as I've pointed out before the things Babcock looks for in his centers are skating, backchecking and "compete level", which just happen to be the threee weakest parts of of Hudlers game.

[titanium2 867]

And as for Hudler playing center......as I've pointed out before the things Babcock looks for in his centers are skating, backchecking and "compete level", which just happen to be the threee weakest parts of of Hudlers game.

Currently the main centers for the Red Wings are:

Datsyuk

Zetterberg

Filppula

Modano

Helm

Abdelkader

And we've seen these guys play stopgap center in the past:

Franzen

Cleary

Miller

So... In reality, with the way that trends are right now with Babs and the coaches, if Hudler were to play center then that would mean the Wings would have an amount of injuries we can't even possibly imagine because it's way too painful. Therefore, I don't think that's something we want to see.

...

In regards to the bolded part... Are you trying to say that being a center on the Red Wings involves playing solid defense too? Noo... You're crazy. Hudler as a center is a good idea because he's an excellent playmaker with good hockey sense in the offensive zone. On offense, it really is a decent idea. But I mean, skating ability to not only backcheck but also have the ability to adjust and rotate position wise along with defensive awareness of the opposing players around you as well as the ability to make smart defensive decisions is NOT really all that important... What the hell are you smoking over there? Let's just focus way more on offense. It's okay if a center is below average defensively on the Red Wings. It's not like they believe in having solid two way centers on scoring lines... Right? Come on...

But hey... Did you guys know that Gretzky played center? And he was small and slow just like Hudler? If Gretzky can do it then Hudler can, for sure. You guys don't know what you're missing.

And did you guys know that Hudler has played center in his career, especially when he was with the Grand Rapids Griffins? What sucks is that some crazy lunatics out there argue that the NHL is different than the AHL. I mean, what the hell are they thinking? So the NHL is a more difficult league than the AHL??? Says who??? Jeez... Crazy people, you know? The AHL and the NHL are the same, end of story.

In conclusion, Hudler should be a center. And trust me... We won't be ripping on him here endlessly on LGW for either having to play too defensively because he needs to overcompensate for being "too slow" or having to sacrifice a lot of defense in order to have points to justify his salary. It just won't happen.

I'm right and you all know it and I'm not a stubborn moron at all.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Hudler plays center before Filppula scores 60 points...

Feeling a little more confident to say that now that Filppula might have a relatively serious leg injury?

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I'm right and you all know it and I'm not a stubborn moron at all.

You're not a stubborn moron, but sometimes I think you might eat paint chips. I guess I eat paint chips too, because I often agree with you. However, delving through your thinly veiled sarcasm, with Flip out (worried about Babs' comment about "we've lost Flip") I wouldn't be completely opposed to seeing Rex play center. Even with his defensive shortcomings, who knows... maybe it'd push him a little. I know he looked good with Datsyuk last night, but who doesn't?

In the offseason I suggested we sign Boogaard (not for his NYR salary, mind you) and just tie him to the back of Datsyuk. With Pasha's bowed legs, he could support Boogaard easily and whenever anyone got near Dats, Boogaard could just go "RAAA!" and scare the crap out of them.

Call me crazy, but I think that would be just as effective. So who's the scariest guy in our system?

PS: Oh and uh... don't trade Filppula. He's injured

[Finnish Wing 110]

Feeling a little more confident to say that now that Filppula might have a relatively serious leg injury?

Getting injured is a weakness.

[titanium2 867]

(worried about Babs' comment about "we've lost Flip")

Yeah I don't know where that came from. Is there a source? I mean, I watched his media scrum on the Red Wings TV website and I can't recall anything like that.

[eva unit zero 271]

Feeling a little more confident to say that now that Filppula might have a relatively serious leg injury?

Flip wasn't going to score a point per game for the rest of the year. And he defnitely won't do it now. It's like I've said in the past; he's always been streaky.

And Hudler's always been streaky too, but Hudler is on a hot streak and could still finish in the 40-50 point range given additional ice time he may receive now.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Yeah I don't know where that came from. Is there a source? I mean, I watched his media scrum on the Red Wings TV website and I can't recall anything like that.

I recall hearing it in passing (I was studying at the same time) and then someone wrote it on here, so I figured I heard right. I'm watching NHL on the Fly right now and they've gone over it a bit too, but nothing specific has been said. Hopefully it's just a bruise.

[eva unit zero 271]

Currently the main centers for the Red Wings are:

Datsyuk

Zetterberg

Filppula

Modano

Helm

Abdelkader

And we've seen these guys play stopgap center in the past:

Franzen

Cleary

Miller

So... In reality, with the way that trends are right now with Babs and the coaches, if Hudler were to play center then that would mean the Wings would have an amount of injuries we can't even possibly imagine because it's way too painful. Therefore, I don't think that's something we want to see.

...

In regards to the bolded part... Are you trying to say that being a center on the Red Wings involves playing solid defense too? Noo... You're crazy. Hudler as a center is a good idea because he's an excellent playmaker with good hockey sense in the offensive zone. On offense, it really is a decent idea. But I mean, skating ability to not only backcheck but also have the ability to adjust and rotate position wise along with defensive awareness of the opposing players around you as well as the ability to make smart defensive decisions is NOT really all that important... What the hell are you smoking over there? Let's just focus way more on offense. It's okay if a center is below average defensively on the Red Wings. It's not like they believe in having solid two way centers on scoring lines... Right? Come on...

But hey... Did you guys know that Gretzky played center? And he was small and slow just like Hudler? If Gretzky can do it then Hudler can, for sure. You guys don't know what you're missing.

And did you guys know that Hudler has played center in his career, especially when he was with the Grand Rapids Griffins? What sucks is that some crazy lunatics out there argue that the NHL is different than the AHL. I mean, what the hell are they thinking? So the NHL is a more difficult league than the AHL??? Says who??? Jeez... Crazy people, you know? The AHL and the NHL are the same, end of story.

In conclusion, Hudler should be a center. And trust me... We won't be ripping on him here endlessly on LGW for either having to play too defensively because he needs to overcompensate for being "too slow" or having to sacrifice a lot of defense in order to have points to justify his salary. It just won't happen.

I'm right and you all know it and I'm not a stubborn moron at all.

Huds has been perfectly capable of getting back on the play. It has been more than a few times where Hudler is one of the deepest Wings in the zone, and the other team starts a rush back and Hudler manages to be the first or second Wing back on the backcheck. I think his skating and defense "deficiencies" are overstated because he plays for a team that hunts for those things in centers regardless of line. A lot of teams out there would stick Hudler in the middle without a second thought.

[Z and D for the C 712]

And Hudler's always been streaky too, but Hudler is on a hot streak and could still finish in the 40-50 point range given additional ice time he may receive now.[/font]

I know it hurts you to think about it, but Filppula was "hotter" than Hudler was. But Filppula definitely wasn't going to score a point per game, but Hudler of course could have. Love your logic, eva.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Z and D for the C

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I know it hurts you to think about it, but Filppula was "hotter" than Hudler was. But Filppula definitely wasn't going to score a point per game, but Hudler of course could have. Love your logic, eva.

This confuses me a bit. I just checked the game by game stats for both Hudler and Filppula.

Starting with the December 23rd game against St. Louis (the game right after Datsyuk was injured against Vancouver), their stats looked like this:

Hudler: 20gp 4G 10A 14pts (0.70 pts/g)

Filppula: 20gp 4G 9A 13pts (0.65 pts/g)

If you move up to the Colorado game on the 27th of December when Hudler really broke out:

Hudler: 18gp 4G 10A 14pts (0.78 pts/g)

Filppula: 18gp 4G 8A 12pts (0.67pts/g)

So Hudler's scored about 18% more pts than Filppula over that time.

Regarding your point per game pace for Filppula the best streak I could find was his 13pts in 13 games between Dec 26th and Feb 2nd. In the three games since then he hasn't scored a point. Given that his point per game streak was broken at this point I don't see how you'd extrapolate his performance over the final 29 games of the season as being at a point per game.

Over the whole season they break down like this:

Hudler: 48gp 5G 15A 20pts (0.42pts/g --pro-rates to 34pts in 82 games)

Filppula: 50gp 12G 19A 31pts (0.62pts/g --pro-rates to 51pts in 82 games)

In their last NHL seasons they had the respective totals below:

Hudler: 82gp 23G 34A 57pts (0.70pts/g)

Filppula: 55gp 11G 24A 35pts (0.64pts/g)

Basically we can say that over this entire season Filppula's performed at the level we expect of him based on his past NHL performances. On the other hand it's clear that Hudler's performed very poorly over the whole 48 games compared to his past NHL performances (0.42pts/g this season vs. 0.70pts/g his last season) BUT over the last 18 games of this season Hudler's performance has been right on target with his performance in the past (0.78pts/g over the last 18 games vs 0.70pts/g in the 08/09 season).

So we can draw one of two broader conclusions about this 18 game span for Hudler:

1.) His performance over the first 30 games of the season was very poor due to his poor transition from the KHL to the NHL in terms of conditioning and the way the NHL game is played (pace, rink size, etc). This was compounded further by the impact his scoring drought had on his confidence. It took him far too long to readjust to the NHL but now that he has (taking the game against Colorado as the turning point), his play is back up to level one expects based on his previous NHL seasons. This conclusion is supported by the point per game averages for each time period as well as qualitative observation.

2.) At some point between the 2009 SCF and the start of this season, while Hudler was in the KHL his skills declined to the point that we should expect him to be a 0.42pt/g player from here on out. The last 18 games are just an extended fluke and the statistical similarity between that stretch and his play over the full 08/09 season is a coincidence.

Hudler turned 27 in January so it's hard to believe the 2nd conclusion is realistic. Moreover, he's always relied on his skills to overcome his lack of size and comparitive lack of strength, so a decline in his potential peak physical coniditon between ages 26 and 27 wouldn't explain the dip in his performance over the first 30 games of this season. If Hudler left for the KHL at age 33 and came back at 34 I could see how the 2nd conclusion would be reasonable. Hudler's entering his peak NHL age now so it seems unlikely that a year in the KHL would permenantly diminish his skills.

The facts remain that since Datsyuk was injured, both Filppula and Hudler stepped their games up significantly. Filppula's performance this season is in line with where we expected his development curve would be while Hudler's 48 game performance has been a significant disappointment. Over the last 18 games Hudler's brought his game back in line with expectations and his previous level of NHL Play. Whether those 18 games represent a turning point or a fluke is really up to you.

Realistically I think Hudler should finish the season at a 0.70pt/g pace. That would give him 40pts on the season. If he continued at the pace he's had over the last 18 games he'd finish with 43pts. Either way it'd be a huge coup if he managed to match his 57pt total from 08/09.

[ogreslayer 1,069]

I recall hearing it in passing (I was studying at the same time) and then someone wrote it on here, so I figured I heard right. I'm watching NHL on the Fly right now and they've gone over it a bit too, but nothing specific has been said. Hopefully it's just a bruise.

Per the Freep, Flips out at least against the Preds on Wednesday.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110208/SPORTS05/110208029/1053/SPORTS05/Wings-Filppula-out-against-Predators-

[Lonewuhf 47]

This confuses me a bit. I just checked the game by game stats for both Hudler and Filppula.

Starting with the December 23rd game against St. Louis (the game right after Datsyuk was injured against Vancouver), their stats looked like this:

Hudler: 20gp 4G 10A 14pts (0.70 pts/g)

Filppula: 20gp 4G 9A 13pts (0.65 pts/g)

If you move up to the Colorado game on the 27th of December when Hudler really broke out:

Hudler: 18gp 4G 10A 14pts (0.78 pts/g)

Filppula: 18gp 4G 8A 12pts (0.67pts/g)

So Hudler's scored about 18% more pts than Filppula over that time.

Regarding your point per game pace for Filppula the best streak I could find was his 13pts in 13 games between Dec 26th and Feb 2nd. In the three games since then he hasn't scored a point. Given that his point per game streak was broken at this point I don't see how you'd extrapolate his performance over the final 29 games of the season as being at a point per game.

Over the whole season they break down like this:

Hudler: 48gp 5G 15A 20pts (0.42pts/g --pro-rates to 34pts in 82 games)

Filppula: 50gp 12G 19A 31pts (0.62pts/g --pro-rates to 51pts in 82 games)

In their last NHL seasons they had the respective totals below:

Hudler: 82gp 23G 34A 57pts (0.70pts/g)

Filppula: 55gp 11G 24A 35pts (0.64pts/g)

Basically we can say that over this entire season Filppula's performed at the level we expect of him based on his past NHL performances. On the other hand it's clear that Hudler's performed very poorly over the whole 48 games compared to his past NHL performances (0.42pts/g this season vs. 0.70pts/g his last season) BUT over the last 18 games of this season Hudler's performance has been right on target with his performance in the past (0.78pts/g over the last 18 games vs 0.70pts/g in the 08/09 season).

So we can draw one of two broader conclusions about this 18 game span for Hudler:

1.) His performance over the first 30 games of the season was very poor due to his poor transition from the KHL to the NHL in terms of conditioning and the way the NHL game is played (pace, rink size, etc). This was compounded further by the impact his scoring drought had on his confidence. It took him far too long to readjust to the NHL but now that he has (taking the game against Colorado as the turning point), his play is back up to level one expects based on his previous NHL seasons. This conclusion is supported by the point per game averages for each time period as well as qualitative observation.

2.) At some point between the 2009 SCF and the start of this season, while Hudler was in the KHL his skills declined to the point that we should expect him to be a 0.42pt/g player from here on out. The last 18 games are just an extended fluke and the statistical similarity between that stretch and his play over the full 08/09 season is a coincidence.

Hudler turned 27 in January so it's hard to believe the 2nd conclusion is realistic. Moreover, he's always relied on his skills to overcome his lack of size and comparitive lack of strength, so a decline in his potential peak physical coniditon between ages 26 and 27 wouldn't explain the dip in his performance over the first 30 games of this season. If Hudler left for the KHL at age 33 and came back at 34 I could see how the 2nd conclusion would be reasonable. Hudler's entering his peak NHL age now so it seems unlikely that a year in the KHL would permenantly diminish his skills.

The facts remain that since Datsyuk was injured, both Filppula and Hudler stepped their games up significantly. Filppula's performance this season is in line with where we expected his development curve would be while Hudler's 48 game performance has been a significant disappointment. Over the last 18 games Hudler's brought his game back in line with expectations and his previous level of NHL Play. Whether those 18 games represent a turning point or a fluke is really up to you.

Realistically I think Hudler should finish the season at a 0.70pt/g pace. That would give him 40pts on the season. If he continued at the pace he's had over the last 18 games he'd finish with 43pts. Either way it'd be a huge coup if he managed to match his 57pt total from 08/09.

Only problem with this logic is that Hudler has had much more ice time when Dats was out. Now that he's back, his ice time will likely drop a few mins per game. Same for Fil, but Fil was doing more with his shortened ice time for the first part of the season than Huds was. I know the transition could be part of the problem for Huds, but I truly believe that his 57 points from 08/09 was a fluke. The way he plays I've never seen him as more than a 40-50 point scorer. Of course, this is all solely looking at offensive prowess, and if we bring in Hud's and Fil's total package, I don't think anyone here will agree that Huds is more of an asset than Fil (except maybe eva...).

[Z and D for the C 712]

This confuses me a bit. I just checked the game by game stats for both Hudler and Filppula.

Starting with the December 23rd game against St. Louis (the game right after Datsyuk was injured against Vancouver), their stats looked like this:

....

Realistically I think Hudler should finish the season at a 0.70pt/g pace. That would give him 40pts on the season. If he continued at the pace he's had over the last 18 games he'd finish with 43pts. Either way it'd be a huge coup if he managed to match his 57pt total from 08/09.

Before this weekend, Filppula had 15 points in 16 games. Hudler had 12 in the same period. Filppula, thus, was "hotter" than Hudler. There isn't a single point this season when Hudler has been better than Filppula, in any respect. Offensively or defensively. He had a good night last night, but then he was playing with Datsyuk.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Z and D for the C

[Z and D for the C 712]

Given that his point per game streak was broken at this point I don't see how you'd extrapolate his performance over the final 29 games of the season as being at a point per game.

Filppula put together 15 points in 16 games with Hudler and Bertuzzi on his line. I don't think it's such a far stretch to say he could match or even exceed that when Franzen gets put back on the second line as we get guys back. However, this is of course dependent on Babcock keeping Fil in the top 6.

Starting with the December 23rd game against St. Louis (the game right after Datsyuk was injured against Vancouver), their stats looked like this:

Hudler: 20gp 4G 10A 14pts (0.70 pts/g)

Filppula: 20gp 4G 9A 13pts (0.65 pts/g)

If you move up to the Colorado game on the 27th of December when Hudler really broke out:

Hudler: 18gp 4G 10A 14pts (0.78 pts/g)

Filppula: 18gp 4G 8A 12pts (0.67pts/g)

So Hudler's scored about 18% more pts than Filppula over that time.

Oh okay, so when you cherry pick stats to make it look like Hudler has been scoring more than Filppula, it looks like Hudler has been scoring more than Filppula? Got it.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Z and D for the C

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Before this weekend, Filppula had 15 points in 16 games.

That's simply not true. I went through his game-by-game stats for my last post.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Oh okay, so when you cherry pick stats to make it look like Hudler has been scoring more than Filppula, it looks like Hudler has been scoring more than Filppula? Got it.

That's horses***. Not only did I go out of my way to explain the justification for taking certain periods of play into account but I also used broad timelines like 'the past 18 games' and 'every frigging game since Datsyuk was injured'. I didn't drop games in between two dates or even stop counting recent games where he went cold (as you did with Val's last 3 games). If anyone's cherry picking it's the guy who truncates the stats at the end of the data set because that's when his favourite player went cold.

[Konnan511 1,736]

That's simply not true. I went through his game-by-game stats for my last post.

I just counted 15 points in 16 games before this past weekend as well.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Hudler's worst stretch this season: 1 point over a 17 game stretch.

Filppula'a worst stretch this year: 1 point over an 8 game stretch.

Filppula's points > Hudler's points.

How can anyone argue Hudler has had a better season than vFlip?

[Z and D for the C 712]

That's horses***. Not only did I go out of my way to explain the justification for taking certain periods of play into account but I also used broad timelines like 'the past 18 games' and 'every frigging game since Datsyuk was injured'. I didn't drop games in between two dates or even stop counting recent games where he went cold (as you did with Val's last 3 games). If anyone's cherry picking it's the guy who truncates the stats at the end of the data set because that's when his favourite player went cold.

I took out the two shutouts because they were shutouts. Hudler didn't get any points either, so it's irrelevant to the comparison. Include them if you want, my favorite player still comes out on top. Including Monday night would be dumb, as Hudler was getting more icetime with Datsyuk and Cleary versus less TOI for Flip with Abds and Eaves. The previous 16 games, they both played on the same line, thus being directly comparable. But frankly, even if you do include Monday nights game, Filppula still has more points than Hudler in the past 19.

Cherry picking is ignoring the two games prior to where you started your comparison when Filppula had 2 points.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Z and D for the C

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I just counted 15 points in 16 games before this past weekend as well.

I triple checked the numbers before posting that long discussion earlier. Looks like I should have quadruple checked.

Hudler's worst stretch this season: 1 point over a 17 game stretch.

Filppula'a worst stretch this year: 1 point over an 8 game stretch.

Filppula's points > Hudler's points.

How can anyone argue Hudler has had a better season than vFlip?

I'm not arguing that at all. Hudler's had a garbage season from s***town. I just don't buy that he hasn't turned a corner since Datsyuk went down. He looks like a completely different player compared to October and November. Filppula's been consistently productive all year. To be honest I was most excited that Val's been consistent this year. If he can consistently play at this level he'll continue to put points up and refine his game.

[Z and D for the C 712]

But we can play your cherry picking game. Let's only start counting when Hudler "broke out". From December 27th to February 2nd:

Filppula: 13gp 4g 9a 13p

Hudler: 14gp 3g 9a 12p

So Filppula has 1 more point in 1 less game. I'm pretty sure that means Filppula was "hotter".

I just don't buy that he hasn't turned a corner since Datsyuk went down.

I don't think anyone would argue against that. Hudler has been great since Datsyuk was injured, but so has Filppula, and even better. I'm just annoying that Eva thinks that Hudler could score a PPG pace to finish the season, but Filppula definitely won't, even though Filppula has scored closer (albeit not much) to a PPG pace over the past 20 or so games than Hudler.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Z and D for the C

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Cherry picking is ignoring the two games prior to where you started your comparison when Filppula had 2 points.

That'd be a fantastic argument if I hadn't included both sets of stats.

I don't think anyone would argue against that. Hudler has been great since Datsyuk was injured, but so has Filppula, and even better. I'm just annoying that Eva thinks that Hudler could score a PPG pace to finish the season, but Filppula definitely won't, even though Filppula has scored closer (albeit not much) to a PPG pace over the past 20 or so games than Hudler.

For the record-- it's retarded to think Hudler will finish the season at a point per game pace. Only Eva would argue that.

If Hudler does score 29pts over the remaining games it'd be fantasic for the Red Wings but Eva won't be able to point to statisical evidence for making that prediction.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Drake_Marcus