Is Babcock a bad coach!?

[StevieY'sguy 1]

I don't see how you can complain about Babcock really, it's not like they got ran out of town by the U.S.A., Team Canada outplayed the U.S. big time and had wayyyyy more scoring chances, they just didn't get the bounces and as we all know, that's just sometimes the way it goes in this game...the 1980 team got their ass handed to them in every facet of the game vs. the USSR but got a couple pretty special bounces and the rest is history ( Now their coach, Tikhonov deserved some blame...if he never makes one of the most boneheaded moves in hockey in pulling Tretiak, the best goalie in the world, then the U.S. adds a silver medal instead of a gold to their count, no questions asked..)

[skacore 2]

Bonehead decision by Babcock

Rick Nash who's been playing great but been held goalless this tournament skates through the entire team, splits the D, gets hauled down and earns a penalty shot...

...Sidney Crosby takes it, and misses it, it's 4-0.

f*** off Babcock....what a disgusting coaching move

[egroen 384]

Bonehead decision by Babcock

Rick Nash who's been playing great but been held goalless this tournament skates through the entire team, splits the D, gets hauled down and earns a penalty shot...

...Sidney Crosby takes it, and misses it, it's 4-0.

f*** off Babcock....what a disgusting coaching move

Babcock is using every opportunity to exploit Crosby as a fraud

[sixer 37]

Babcock is using every opportunity to exploit Crosby as a fraud

yup

[Marty Barry 230]

[egroen 384]

Wow, argument over. Stan Fischler said that Babcock was to blame. That's it. We're all wrong.

Who is Stan Fischler and why should we give a s*** about a quote from him that has absolutely no argument accompanying it?

LOL - Fischler is hilarious - "If they did not play for a New York team they sucked!!!"

He has Bobby Orr as the #13 player of all-time.

That said, I could listen to his stories for months... the guy has been watching hockey since the 30s.

But yes, obviously Ron Wilson is the better coach, what with all his success in the NHL playoffs.

Edited February 24, 2010 by egroen

[Guest Four]

Todd McLellan was Babcock's success.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Four

[Guest Crymson]

Todd McLellan was Babcock's success.

How does this fit in with Babcock's team moving on and coming one game away from a repeat---with half the forwards and 1/3 of the defense injured, no less---while McLellan's choked out in the first round? Also, where does McLellan's absence on Babcock's 2002-2003 coaching staff play into your argument? Further, the Wings did wonderfully on offense last season, despite that being McLellan's department the season before; team defense was what did not do so well, and Osgood's goaltending seriously left something to be desired.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Crymson

[Guest Four]

How does this fit in with Babcock's team moving on and coming one game away from a repeat---with half the forwards and 1/3 of the defense injured, no less---while McLellan's choked out in the first round? Also, where does McLellan's absence on Babcock's 2002-2003 coaching staff play into your argument? Further, the Wings did wonderfully on offense last season, despite that being McLellan's department the season before; team defense was what did not do so well, and Osgood's goaltending seriously left something to be desired.

You can easily make a connection between the San Jose Shark's great defense and our lack there of after he left, no?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Todd McLellan was Babcock's success.

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. I bet you are saying this largely because of the recent Canadian loss to the U.S. While Canada should beat the United States most games, anybody can beat anyobdy else in a 1-game scenario.

McLellan certainly played his part in winning a Cup. But to say that he is the majority or sole reason they won the Cup through coaching is stupid. He played his part just like everybody else to win the Stanley Cup - coaches, players, etc. That includes Babcock.

Edited February 24, 2010 by SouthernWingsFan

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Todd McLellan was Babcock's success.

The same coach who turned the Sharks from a second round playoff loser to a first round playoff loser?

HELL YEAH!

[Guest Crymson]

You can easily make a connection between the San Jose Shark's great defense and our lack there of after he left, no?

McLellan was the offensive coach before he moved out, and McLean was the defensive coach. McLean moved up to offense at the start of the '08-'09 season. Apparently McCrimmon isn't so great, though Osgood suddenly playing horrible hockey in the regular season really didn't help out our GAPG.

That said, you ignored my entire argument.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Crymson

[Serapth 3]

I didn't make this thread. I simply replied to it.

And it might be nice if you addressed the points I made and attempted to refute them rather than taking the easy way out and accusing me of having an ulterior motive because I'm Canadian. Step up with an argument or take your 2-bit theories about my motives elsewhere please. Besides, you know nothing of how I feel about Team Canada and it's a mistake on your part to lump me in with any nutty generalized view you may have of Canadians.

The way your thread was ( and wasn't ) responded to, really shows me how many people on this forum have their home town blinders on. That, and the thread title ( obviously not your fault ) itself is very incendiary and not very helpful towards a civil argument.

Is Babcock a bad coach? No.

Is Babcock doing a good job at the Olympics? No, absolutely not.

He has made some mind bogglingly bad decisions, that I for the life of me can't explain. Perhaps he is treating this too much like a 82 game series, I don't know. I don't personally blame him for the USA loss, that rests solely on two sets of shoulders, Brodeur and Miller, but he has definitely made some big mistakes.

• His treatment of Iginla is just baffling. To say "He isn't there to score" when he is the all time leading Olympic goal scorer is just a bit crazy... Starting him on the 4th line ( granted, 4th line of a stacked team ) seemed like a waste of use, but BENCHING HIM!!!! I mean... WTF? With a list of players doing NOTHING ( Pronger, Thorton, even Nash ) should have been benched long before hand. If I was a more cynical man, I would make note of the fact DET is in 9th while CGY is in 8th, but i'm not quite that jaded. I will say though, Babcock does have some sort of vindetta against Canada's top scoring player... Hell, he still won't acknowledge Iginla's contributions.
• Brodeur. I am not blaming him for going with Marty ( I probably would have too ), but I sure as hell blame him for not pulling him!
• The Nash penalty shot incident. I mean, wow, really, just wow. The game was already in the bag for the most part... let the guy take the damned shot! What a moronic and demoralizing move.
• Blown time out (non)call

So, no, he isn't a bad coach, but in this Olympics, he sure doesn't look like a good one!

As to the Job Yzerman did, I think being GM of the Canadian Olympic team has to be about the worst job in the world. When your team is expected to win, really at best you can meet expectations. That, would not be fun. That said, no matter how bad things turn out, Yzerman can't possibly do any worse than *spit* Bobby Clark *spit* did in Nagano, that piece of $@#$@$.

I will gladly argue any of the points I have made above and would love to have a good discussion on the topic. That said, I will simply ignore any personal or ad hominem attacks, so don't waste your time.

Oh, and hi all, i'm new here.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Serapth

[ben_usmc 253]

I think this is exposing Babcock as not being the greatest coach since Scotty B. I mean he's a good coach but he isn't the best in the league.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

I think this is exposing Babcock as not being the greatest coach since Scotty B. I mean he's a good coach but he isn't the best in the league.

Even Bowman had sub par seasons. It's not outlandish to expect it to happen every now and again.

[cupforwings 138]

I think this is exposing Babcock as not being the greatest coach since Scotty B. I mean he's a good coach but he isn't the best in the league.

Ok, so who is better? I don't think any other coach has had the success Babcock has had since he came into the league, including his time in Anaheim. Who would you want coaching the Olympic team then? I doubt any other coach in the league would have had any effect on the outcomes of the first few games. Babcock can't score when it matters, and neither can the Canadian players apparently. Blaming Babcock is scapegoat for the players, period.

[Serapth 3]

Ok, so who is better? I don't think any other coach has had the success Babcock has had since he came into the league, including his time in Anaheim. Who would you want coaching the Olympic team then? I doubt any other coach in the league would have had any effect on the outcomes of the first few games. Babcock can't score when it matters, and neither can the Canadian players apparently. Blaming Babcock is scapegoat for the players, period.

At the start of the year ( before his season with Calgary and when coaches were being picked ) I would have said Brian Sutter. Sutter has so much international experience and did a great job with New Jersey. Of the three coaches picked, I would have gone with Ruff.

That said, its just my two cents and I would make a lousy GM. I personally would have picked John Tortorella to lead the US team, so.... that said, I have been really impressed with Wilson, especially his treatment of the media and under the dark cloud he must be dealing with. I hated him as coach of Vancouver, but since I have been more and more impressed. He is outspoken, but I tend to agree with him. Just, his inability to close the deal is a bit scary.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Ok, so who is better? I don't think any other coach has had the success Babcock has had since he came into the league, including his time in Anaheim. Who would you want coaching the Olympic team then? I doubt any other coach in the league would have had any effect on the outcomes of the first few games. Babcock can't score when it matters, and neither can the Canadian players apparently. Blaming Babcock is scapegoat for the players, period.

This is true.

[Serapth 3]

Blaming Babcock is scapegoat for the players, period.

It is only scapegoating if well, the players are scape goated. ( Yes, i'm making up words... ).

See, the US/Canada loss, in pretty much all the press and most of the water cooler talk I've particpated in, been placed mostly on the shoulders of Brodeur.

Does Babcock have is share of the blame, you betcha! On much the same accord, even if Canada wins gold, it doesn't erase the glaring mistakes Babcock has made. No doubt, if Canada loses a number of people will put too much blame on Babcock's shoulders, as always seems to happen, but no doubt some of the blame is his.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Serapth

[PierreC 0]

..."I think at the core, the very core of the problem, you can look at the Canadian training methods of younger players. We're just not as skilled as foreign players once they bulk up. That's it."

Then why Canada has won 5 of the last 6 WJC ??

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

At the start of the year ( before his season with Calgary and when coaches were being picked ) I would have said Brian Sutter. Sutter has so much international experience and did a great job with New Jersey. Of the three coaches picked, I would have gone with Ruff.

That said, its just my two cents and I would make a lousy GM. I personally would have picked John Tortorella to lead the US team, so.... that said, I have been really impressed with Wilson, especially his treatment of the media and under the dark cloud he must be dealing with. I hated him as coach of Vancouver, but since I have been more and more impressed. He is outspoken, but I tend to agree with him. Just, his inability to close the deal is a bit scary.

I don't see how you couldn't pick Wilson. He is the underdog's dream coach.

Regarding Babcock: I don't know why Brodeur wasn't pulled, but at the same time the team scored 3 goals on twice as many shots as the US. When your team is putting that much on the net how much do you really want to blame the coach for. The players have to finish and the coach can't finish for them. He puts them in a system that is supposed to dominate and it has. Except for Brodeur. And who is in net now? Luongo.

Also consider how Babcock has treated goaltenders in the future. Check Hasek in the playoffs and Osgood last year. He gives his vets a chance to get their game back. And until the US/CA game it worked. It still may work out in the end.

The time out: I am also confused about that, but at the same time the US team was on its heels and the Canadians were keeping severe pressure on, with a few powerplays to boot. Taking a timeout would benefit the US more with a rest and chance to recoup the squad and give them a game plan. The Canadians had a game plan, and it had been working. The only problem was the goaltender on the other end.

The Nash penalty shot: You got me. Maybe to put Crosby in as many pressure situations as possible to prepare him for the pressure against Russia, possibly Sweden, and possibly the US?

Benching Iginla: Once again, you got me. Though I don't consider it a huge deal considering the amount of offense Canada has been bringing every night. Just micromanagement.

Glad to see a poster who can argue against the grain and do so in a civil manner. There isn't a large amount of them in these here parts.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[Serapth 3]

I don't see how you couldn't pick Wilson. He is the underdog's dream coach.

Regarding Babcock: I don't know why Brodeur wasn't pulled, but at the same time the team scored 3 goals on twice as many shots as the US. When your team is putting that much on the net how much do you really want to blame the coach for. The players have to finish and the coach can't finish for them. He puts them in a system that is supposed to dominate and it has. Except for Brodeur. And who is in net now? Luongo.

Also consider how Babcock has treated goaltenders in the future. Check Hasek in the playoffs and Osgood last year. He gives his vets a chance to get their game back. And until the US/CA game it worked. It still may work out in the end.

Like I said, that game was won/lost completely on the play of Miller and Brodeur, I don't really put it on Babcock other than perhaps some of his line choices/juggling there isnt much he could do, except of course pull Brodeur earlier. But, this is kinda what I meant when I said he is maybe treating it like an 82 game series. The lack of a practice in off time ( I forgot to mention this one earlier, but I really dont get this one ), giving players second chances for development, these aren't things you have the luxury of in a tournament like this. In elimination tournaments, you go with what works and react in the now.

The time out: I am also confused about that, but at the same time the US team was on its heels and the Canadians were keeping severe pressure on, with a few powerplays to boot. Taking a timeout would benefit the US more with a rest and chance to recoup the squad and give them a game plan. The Canadians had a game plan, and it had been working. The only problem was the goaltender on the other end.

I agree, this could have gone either way, but I still think it is generally regarded as a tactical error. That said, it was by far the lowest of Babcocks mistakes.

The Nash penalty shot: You got me. Maybe to put Crosby in as many pressure situations as possible to prepare him for the pressure against Russia, possibly Sweden, and possibly the US?

All around I simply don't understand Crosby's first among equals status. His defensive play is meh, his shootout ability is meh and is leadership, to me, has never actually been verified, especially in this kind of dressing room.

Benching Iginla: Once again, you got me. Though I don't consider it a huge deal considering the amount of offense Canada has been bringing every night. Just micromanagement.

Frankly, this is Babcocks greatest sin, in my books.

Glad to see a poster who can argue against the grain and do so in a civil manner. There isn't a large amount of them in these here parts.

Thanks. Frankly, its part of what brought me here at this time. Talking to other Canadians about Canadian Olympic hockey really isn't that fun, too much group think or overwhelming irrational negativity.

I don't see how you couldn't pick Wilson. He is the underdog's dream coach.

Actually, I agree, although I just like Torts.... I have to say, I sure as hell wouldnt have picked Brian Burke for GM!

Edited February 24, 2010 by Serapth

[Serapth 3]

On the brightside, I saw nothing I disliked about Babcocks performance in the Canada-Russia game.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Serapth

[10 Minute Misconduct 104]

Canada won't be losing again, so this can be closed.

[Guest Crymson]

If you want an example of what bad coaching actually looks like, check out the performance by Sweden's coaching staff in the game against Slovakia.

My GOODNESS, it was terrible.