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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

Official Poll: Filppula at 3 Mil. or Hossa at 5.4 + return for Filppul

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Filppula vs Hossa  

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The other important question is who goes for the 2.4 million more than what Filpula makes that we would have to pay Hossa?

1) you never get to see Eaves. That is sad!

2) you possibly never get to see Miller.

3) Bertuzzi isn't signed. He's the biggest scapegoat around, so not many will shed tears, but when he plays like he did today, he is a big asset to this team.

Needless to say; I choose Hossa as well even though I think that this year was a complete off year for Val. Here's hoping to a breakout record year in 2011!

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

I've agreed with a lot of your posts, but I would appreciate if anyone does have links to this (I never saw them)?

Even if true, this is pure speculation then... as to not sign Hossa for that amount would have been criminally insane on Holland's part (factoring inflation and growth $4.3m will be a 2nd/3rd line player in 8 years... IE. not a lot more than what we are paying Holmstrom and Draper at this point. And that's assuming Hossa is still playing, because if he is retired (or traded, or sent down) his salary comes completely off the books).

My understanding is Hossa was asking for around $6m during last season, so Holland locked up Franzen first. I think it is safe to assume Hossa came down from that in the off-season, but I highly doubt it was all the way down to $4.3m (it's not like the Wings are his only chance to win a Cup in the next decade).

I will try to look up the specific article within a few days and post it, IIRC it was in the aftermath of him signing with the Hawks when our final offer came through, and Holland was quoted with a similar number. I can't really right now though as it would require some time and I've allready procrastinated enough from reading 298 pages left in a novel for a midterm (...f***), but if you're feeling impatient I suggest looking through the Hossa Signs with Hawks thread from last summer.

P.S. I'm part persian, so props on the signature.

Edited by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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So you are honestly insituating playing the game with players who went on to the NHL, watching countless hours of film, and having some top coachs would not give you valuable hockey insight beyond the stereotypical keyboard warrior?

Right...

No I am insinuating that just because you played in juniors (whoop de freaking doo) doesn't mean you are the master of hockey knowledge here and should bring it up as ammunition to belittle another poster.

Congrats on playing juniors. But you aren't automatically an authority on NHL knowledge just because you played in those leagues. It's not even close to the same thing as the NHL.

But what do I know, I'm just a stereotypical keyboard warrior who knows nothing about the sport in comparison to the experts who played so many years in junior freaking hockey.

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1) Nowhere in your post did you address the fact that Hossa was playing injured and still manged to play better than Filppula (same amount of points if that bulls*** call back was the same and more goals).

Well for one, I did mention the fact a 7 million dollar should player better then a 3 million dollar player. Also if Hossa was so ******* hurt he shouldn't have been on the ice, if your playing the perform.

2) What is this political backlash you keep talking about? The League investigated it, and it is openly known that discussions of an early retirement, yet..... NOTHING HAS ******* HAPPENED. Don't you get it, allegations don't mean s***, what is the NHL going to do to the blackhawks... my guess is nothing detremental to them, instead going the route of closing up the loophole.

You don't get it, it's the ******* future you don't know what will happen. If they try pulling that buls*** it could very well comeback and bite them in the ass, unless you also are an expert fortunate teller too, you have no idea what results could come from that; especially if owners feel as if they may have been screwed. I don't state this point as an absolute because a lot of things can result in such situations.

3) You still have not recognized that a 36-38 year old Hossa at that time would not be as bad of a value as you orginally stated, as the cap will certainly be higher, and come off as a signifigantly lower cap hit proportionatly then when it was signed.

What? a 37-41 Hossa at 5.4 doesn't sound very appealing to me

Besides all of that you are drawing away from the orginal discussion, whether or not in Hindsight the Wing's made the right move by matching the offer sheet on Filppula. To me it is clear that they didn't. Even gracisouly saying that Hossa and Filpulla are "even" at defense and playmaking, you still have 30 goals for what was reported to be as little as 1.3 million diffiernce in contract, and no more than the 2.4 he signed with the Hawks. You find me a 30 goal scorer who signs for 2.4 million please. In addition you still have the draft picks which would have been considerable.

Quit acting like this an arguement you can win, it isn't. The evidence simply is not there. Every single facuet of the equation points out that in Hindsight this would have been a better move. I have provided evidence on why this is the case, most of which you refrain from referncing in lou of making personal attacks. Take a look at the poll even and this thread even... over half of the people who said Filpulla are simply basing it on incorrect assumptions about his future cap hit, which I hacve clarified.

Your lack of ability to think critically and understand situational and logical context is simply making you look like a hormone filled teenager who is hell bent on raging on an internet forum, which is supposed to be my job.

Good god you are a smug ******* person. If by evidence you mean statements such as Flip is nowhere near the level of Hossa on the backcheck because I once rollerbladded then you sure have. You have done nothing but stated your opinion with no better points then most on this board, if anything you have been completely unobjective. Just look at how you talk to people, you are simply pathetic.

So you are honestly insituating playing the game with players who went on to the NHL, watching countless hours of film, and having some top coachs would not give you valuable hockey insight beyond the stereotypical keyboard warrior?

Right...

Yes, it actually just makes you look like an arrogant ******* acting as if your opinion is superior to others. You have no idea what anyones' background is and for the most part with out a logical argument most won't (and shouldn't) give a s*** what you have to say (general point).

You of all people calling others keyboard warriors after the attitude you portray on here is laughable

Edited by ben_usmc

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

No I am insinuating that just because you played in juniors (whoop de freaking doo) doesn't mean you are the master of hockey knowledge here and should bring it up as ammunition to belittle another poster.

Congrats on playing juniors. But you aren't automatically an authority on NHL knowledge just because you played in those leagues. It's not even close to the same thing as the NHL.

But what do I know, I'm just a stereotypical keyboard warrior who knows nothing about the sport in comparison to the experts who played so many years in junior freaking hockey.

You are putting words in my mouth. Show me once where I claimed that I would be more worthy of a job then any of the Wing's Brass. While I'm waiting for infinity for you to find something that dosent exsist I will admit that yes it is not even close to playing in the NHL, but that still dosent mean you understand tangibles in the game and have a broader understanding of it than the average person.

This isn't an arguement, as neither of us will ever convince the other of the opposite, but honestly I don't really comprehend how people disagree that it would help you to understand the game more.

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You are putting words in my mouth. Show me once where I claimed that I would be more worthy of a job then any of the Wing's Brass. While I'm waiting for infinity for you to find something that dosent exsist I will admit that yes it is not even close to playing in the NHL, but that still dosent mean you understand tangibles in the game and have a broader understanding of it than the average person.

This isn't an arguement, as neither of us will ever convince the other of the opposite, but honestly I don't really comprehend how people disagree that it would help you to understand the game more.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I claimed that you are acting like a big shot ON THIS FORUM because you played in junior. Never said that you stated that you were more knowledgeable than the Wings brass.

My entire point was you are attempting to belittle other posters. "What do I know, right? I only played junior." For starters that is argument to authority, and nobody is going to care that you played junior unless you actually use your knowledge, apply it here and bring out logical points (and you can do that without ever trying to sarcastically bring up how you played in junior).

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

Yes, it actually just makes you look like an arrogant ******* acting as if your opinion is superior to others. You have no idea what anyones' background is and for the most part with out a logical argument most won't (and shouldn't) give a s*** what you have to say (general point).

I'm not even going to get into it with you, but as for your point about the 37-41 Hossa, you do realise by the time he is that age, that is what borderline 2nd to third line players will be getting based on inflation (and that is a CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE), as I have pointed out in my other posts don't you? It really isn't going to be nearly as bad as something such as Rafalski's contract now, and if you honestly belive that Hossa will play till he's 41 you are kidding yourself.

Call it being smug, I don't care, in my mind, and in most other's it seems, I am winning this arguement. And as for your "7 million dollar player should be playing better than 3 million player" quote, that actually goes agaisnt your point as you agree that Hossa is a much better play than Flip... it is then why, I ask would you not take Hossa at slightly more plus some bundeled draft picks? Once again, show me a 30 goal scorer that signs for the difference of the contracts.

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<!--quoteo(post=1909451:date=March 3, 2010 - 11:07PM:name=Yellowknife Redwing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yellowknife Redwing @ March 3, 2010 - 11:07PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm astonished by how many of you would sign the dotted line on Hossa's contract with the Blackhawks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You do realise that the Wing's would get his salary off the books should he retire right? Considering Filppula's next deal will most probably be higher than what he is getting paid for now, can you honestly say you wouldn't want Hossa than Filp long term for a bit more than a Mil a year?

IF flip is playing so s***ty why would he get a raise?

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No I am insinuating that just because you played in juniors (whoop de freaking doo) doesn't mean you are the master of hockey knowledge here and should bring it up as ammunition to belittle another poster.

Congrats on playing juniors. But you aren't automatically an authority on NHL knowledge just because you played in those leagues. It's not even close to the same thing as the NHL.

But what do I know, I'm just a stereotypical keyboard warrior who knows nothing about the sport in comparison to the experts who played so many years in junior freaking hockey.

In all fairness, he did not use it as a claim to being a hockey god (or use it as ammo to belittle others), but simply as reference add credibility to his detailed observations (I thought he described the difference defensively between Filppula and Hossa quite accurately -- Filppula is the better PKer (but not by a lot) and Hossa is definitely the better backchecker and forechecker).

I have no problem believing experience actually playing the sport adds further depths to an analysis or observation (though there are certainly numerous exceptions).

Edited by egroen

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In all fairness, he did not use it as a claim to being a hockey god, but simply as reference add credibility to his detailed observations (I thought he described the difference defensively between Filppula and Hossa quite accurately -- Filppula is the better PKer (but not by a lot) and Hossa is definitely the better backchecker and forechecker).

I have no problem believing experience actually playing the sport adds further depths to an analysis or observation (though there are certainly numerous exceptions).

I am not saying that I have the same hockey knowledge as someone who played in Juniors, OHL, AHL, the NHL, or any higher form of hockey. I'm just saying the sarcasm when revealing your "authority" is irritating, especially on an anonymous message board where I've seen plenty of people lie about themselves in order to gain the admiration of other anonymous people (not accusing you EZ).

The observations should be able to stand on their own without throwing "I did this" or "I went to that" around. I deal with that enough in my day job.

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I'm not even going to get into it with you, but as for your point about the 37-41 Hossa, you do realise by the time he is that age, that is what borderline 2nd to third line players will be getting based on inflation (and that is a CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE), as I have pointed out in my other posts don't you? It really isn't going to be nearly as bad as something such as Rafalski's contract now, and if you honestly belive that Hossa will play till he's 41 you are kidding yourself.

Call it being smug, I don't care, in my mind, and in most other's it seems, I am winning this arguement. And as for your "7 million dollar player should be playing better than 3 million player" quote, that actually goes agaisnt your point as you agree that Hossa is a much better play than Flip... it is then why, I ask would you not take Hossa at slightly more plus some bundeled draft picks? Once again, show me a 30 goal scorer that signs for the difference of the contracts.

I haven't seen anyone say you swayed or even reinforced there arguement. Just because they have opinions as to why they should have kept Hossa doesn't mean they are the same as yours, nor does it mean you have convinced them, or even that you have been winning any arguement. Please point out all these people who have said you have successfully stated and defended there points?? You also keep talking about inflation, as if you know for certain the cap is going to go up every year, and even if it does that it is going to go up drastically. You don't think for a second there could be a decline in the cap within the decade that Hossa signed for??? What part of the problem with the contract to me don't you get his amount for his AGE is a huge issue. At one time Rafalskis contract was considered great now look at it, but obviously with your omnipotent powers you can for certain say the same end result won't happen for Hossa. Also show me a 30 goal scorer with a lifetime contract at the age of 30 or more.

Edited by ben_usmc

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I claimed that you are acting like a big shot ON THIS FORUM because you played in junior. Never said that you stated that you were more knowledgeable than the Wings brass.

My entire point was you are attempting to belittle other posters. "What do I know, right? I only played junior." For starters that is argument to authority, and nobody is going to care that you played junior unless you actually use your knowledge, apply it here and bring out logical points (and you can do that without ever trying to sarcastically bring up how you played in junior).

"No I am insinuating that just because you played in juniors (whoop de freaking doo) doesn't mean you are the master of hockey knowledge"

I guess you forgot the part where you added "OMFG GUYS BTW THE WING'S BRASS ARE THE ULTRA MASTERS OF HOCKEY KNOWEDLGE". Not only is the above post a lie, but the point is invalid, as I have raised several points that neither of you have cared to reply on reagarding the inflation the lack of "poltical backlash" and the diffirence in ability vs the diffirence in price + draft picks.

You are a very black kettle my freind

IF flip is playing so s***ty why would he get a raise?

Once again, I am at an utter shock of your lack of reading comprehension. Please show me where I have ever said Flip is a bad player. Here's a hint to save you some time... I have never said that. All I have been saying is that HOssa at that price is an absoloute bargain, and if Flip would be needed to move to be able tor etain him, then it should have been done. Call me smug, in all truthfullness I am, but that does not excuse the facts that you are putting words in my mouth, drawing false conclusions, and failing to see the big picture.

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

I haven't seen anyone say you swayed or even reinforced there arguement. Just because they have opinions as to why they should have kept Hossa doesn't mean they are the same as yours, nor does it mean you have convinced them, or even that you have been winning any arguement. Please point out all these people who have said you have successfully stated and defended there points?? You also keep talking about inflation, as if you know for certain the cap is going to go up every year, and even if it does that it is going to go up drastically. You don't think for a second there could be a decline in the cap within the decade that Hossa signed for??? What part of the problem with the contract to me don't you get his amount for his AGE is a huge issue. At one time Rafalskis contract was considered great now look at it, but obviously with your omnipotent powers you can for certain say the same end result won't happen for Hossa. Also show me a 30 goal scorer with a lifetime contract at the age of 30 or more.

Look at the poll, look at the other posters, look at the detailed posts I put before you got your panties in a bunch about all the points I've made about how inflation and contractual loopholes would make his salary bareable, and how the talent diffirence is exceedingly worth the price diffrence.

I fully suggest counting to ten, and then re-reading the entire page with me "gloating". When you actually have detailed and well thought out resposces to my counterpoints, then I will take you seriously. Until then I will just continue to laugh and roll my eyes.

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"No I am insinuating that just because you played in juniors (whoop de freaking doo) doesn't mean you are the master of hockey knowledge"

I guess you forgot the part where you added "OMFG GUYS BTW THE WING'S BRASS ARE THE ULTRA MASTERS OF HOCKEY KNOWEDLGE". Not only is the above post a lie, but the point is invalid, as I have raised several points that neither of you have cared to reply on reagarding the inflation the lack of "poltical backlash" and the diffirence in ability vs the diffirence in price + draft picks.

You are a very black kettle my freind

You realize cherry picking my quote doesn't help when I can take the full quote in context and show it back to you, right?

"No I am insinuating that just because you played in juniors (whoop de freaking doo) doesn't mean you are the master of hockey knowledge here and should bring it up as ammunition to belittle another poster."

Here=forums

Second, I am not being a hypocrite at all.

Third, I never added anything like "OMFG GUYS BTW THE WING'S BRASS ARE THE ULTRA MASTERS OF HOCKEY KNOWEDLGE"

Excellent work. And you did notice that I didn't disagree with you on anything, but thought that your argument to authority (you seem to know what a logical fallacy is) was over the line and unnecessary.

Edited by Doc Holliday

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

You realize cherry picking my quote doesn't help when I can take the full quote in context and show it back to you, right?

"No I am insinuating that just because you played in juniors (whoop de freaking doo) doesn't mean you are the master of hockey knowledge here and should bring it up as ammunition to belittle another poster."

Here=forums

Third, I never added anything like "OMFG GUYS BTW THE WING'S BRASS ARE THE ULTRA MASTERS OF HOCKEY KNOWEDLGE"

Excellent work. And you did notice that I didn't disagree with you on anything, but thought that your argument to authority (you seem to know what a logical fallacy is) was over the line and unnecessary.

In reference to your first point, I am skim reading most of these as I am also reading a novel to be finished by tommorow morning (addearll for the ******* win) and did not see the emphasis that was supposed to be on here. I am sure you can see where the misunderstanding came from.

As for your third point, the quoted part was put in there as I thought at first and wrongly that you did say I was the ultimate master of Hockey Knoweledge, and since you later claimed that you never said that I claimed I knew more than the Wing's Brass, i was trying to point a counter point. Total misunderstanding. Point of your posts noted, but not agreed. Let us end it at that

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I haven't seen anyone say you swayed or even reinforced there arguement. Just because they have opinions as to why they should have kept Hossa doesn't mean they are the same as yours, nor does it mean you have convinced them, or even that you have been winning any arguement. Please point out all these people who have said you have successfully stated and defended there points?? You also keep talking about inflation, as if you know for certain the cap is going to go up every year, and even if it does that it is going to go up drastically. You don't think for a second there could be a decline in the cap within the decade that Hossa signed for??? What part of the problem with the contract to me don't you get his amount for his AGE is a huge issue. At one time Rafalskis contract was considered great now look at it, but obviously with your omnipotent powers you can for certain say the same end result won't happen for Hossa. Also show me a 30 goal scorer with a lifetime contract at the age of 30 or more.

With my trusty financial calculator I once took the time to factor average inflation, and the average growth of the NHL (being conservative, as despite the NHL trailing some of the other major sports in growth (though it is still in double digits) I believe it is far less mature at this point and could outpace them if Bettman doesn't screw it up too bad (we are talking about a major sport with still no major TV contract)):

Being extremely conservative - these long-term contracts Holland is signing will have little-to-no adverse effect on the cap hit well into the future. They are literally great contracts to sign, with very low risk.

I have the actual numbers I pulled up somewhere, but am too lazy to find it right now (I do apologize).

Edited by egroen

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

Every time I see EasyBakeOven's posts I get scared that some alter-ego came out and is posting hateful things about Filppula and then I proceed to die a little bit on the inside.

To be fair, I do not hate Filppula, I just think a lot of people on this site go to ridiculous lengths to defend him. I really don't think saying Hossa at 5.4, is a better contract than Val's 3 mil is hate, moreso just my opinion (though I can't fathom how people disagree). Notice that I never did say Filppula was overpaid, I really think he isn't, just that his contract money would be better spent elsewhere, especailly on a team that is in desperate need of a better goal scorer.

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To be fair, I do not hate Filppula, I just think a lot of people on this site go to ridiculous lengths to defend him. I really don't think saying Hossa at 5.4, is a better contract than Val's 3 mil is hate, moreso just my opinion (though I can't fathom how people disagree). Notice that I never did say Filppula was overpaid, I really think he isn't, just that his contract money would be better spent elsewhere, especailly on a team that is in desperate need of a better goal scorer.

I was just kidding.

I really only got excited at the prospect of calling you EasyBakeOven.

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I'm proud to be a staunch Filppula supporter. One thing however that does bother me about him is his mindset on offense. You hear him say all the time, "The important thing is to play good defense and be happy with whatever offense I can get." I'm ecstatic that he values defense so much and he's a lot of fun to watch when he's out there competing hard. But I wish his mindset were more like, "Play good defense AND good offense," and not just "whatever I can get." I'm sure even the Filppula slappys on LGW would agree that he can be so much better on offense and a part of that is him believing that his offensive game can be on par with his defensive game without him having to sacrifice anything on defense.

Obviously that's the next step for him in terms of growth, that 55-65 point plateau. However, if he remains a Red Wing then he'll have to find a way to do that with Datsyuk and Zetterberg as teammates. As much as we want Fil to grow in an exponentially similar way as Pav and Z, he won't have the same kind of opportunity they did in which Pav and Z had to really push themselves to step up their game with the departures of Fedorov, Yzerman, Shanahan and so forth. I'm not suggesting that anyone leave to allow for Fil to grow. I'm just saying he'll have a different path to becoming as good of a player as we Filppula slappys think he can be.

Something else I was thinking about in regards to Fil: Is Game 4 against the Hawks last year his best game in his NHL career so far?

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