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Official Poll: Filppula at 3 Mil. or Hossa at 5.4 + return for Filppul


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#101 stormboy

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 04:46 AM

it was sad to me when this forum was down. i didn't get my daily dose of people bickering and trying to boost their own self-esteem by tearing others down.

for me, i guess it all hinges on what will happen with the cap. one might argue that the cap will go up steadily for the rest of hossa's contract, but i'd argue that there's no way to know for sure. do i think filppula is overpaid? yes. would i want to see the wings royally hamstrung in ten years by the tail ends of several frontloaded contracts for players who are now well passed their prime? no.
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#102 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 05:56 AM

EZBAK, why do you have such a fascination with Filppula?

#103 Z and D for the C

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 12:12 PM

EZBAK, why do you have such a fascination with Filppula?


Yeah man, it's just kind of weird...

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#104 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 12:18 PM

i dont think Filppula will ever be a 40 goal scorer but people are way too quick to throw him to the wolves. This is what, his 3rd year in the NHL?


4th full year.

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#105 EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 02:39 PM

EZBAK, why do you have such a fascination with Filppula?



In my mind I do not have a fascination with Filppula, It's just based on his salary, young age, and potential, he is the most discusable player in trade threads and topics such as these.

I got a lot of flack for suggesting (not even advocating, mind you), that if the Wing's were to get a valuable star player such as Kovalchuk at this trade deadline, Filppula would have to have been gone in a package as a centerpiece. He was the only player who was expendable, had enough cap space to let us accquire a big name, and would be one of the only valuable on roster players that other teams would want (the other being Kronwall, but imo he is untouchable, injuries and all).

I've been labeled a hater for saying that I liked Hudler and thought he was more taletned and valuable to the team than Filppula last season, and I still stand by that, given the wing's strengths weaknesses and needs. As for the more talented thing about Hudler, I honestly feel that Hudler had more natural talent thanf****** Hossa and Franzen, this does not mean I think he is a better player, but honestly the moves Hudler could crank out, and the shots he could snipe were nothing short of incredible. This does not mean I hate Filppula, I have actually agreed that in many other circumstances, I would think Filppula contract is even good, just not nessasary for this team, as I feel he is being underutilized. He has the talent and deserves to be a 2nd line center, and on 20-25 teams in the NHL he would be a goddamn good one, but the Team works best with him on the third line, which I think is a disservice both to the team and him.

I have already explained numerous times that in Hindsight, I think we should have let him been poached giving us a legitiment chance to resign Hossa, and while some may disagree and offer consturctive counter arguements, I really do not think it all that difficult to understand how someone would have the opinion that is mine, as I certainly understand how people think he has too much potetnial to trade away (though I disagree, I can see how they would think that). The reason I keep talking about him in this thread is... well it'sf****** about him. I really do not think this means I have an utter fasination with him.

Now that I have explained my "fasination with Filppula" Could you please explain your fasination with never adding anything constructive, and calling me out with false assumptions?

Yeah man, it's just kind of weird...


I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but if you are refering to my avatar, I thought it would just be good for a few cheeky laughs, I'll change it in a bit.

Edited by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA, 08 March 2010 - 04:05 PM.

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#106 RedWingAbner

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 05:41 PM

<!--quoteo(post=1909488:date=March 3, 2010 - 11:50PM:name=gcom007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gcom007 @ March 3, 2010 - 11:50PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, the team had their best stretch of time when he was OUT of the lineup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

you've said stuff like enough this to make me believe you really think this team is BETTER without Filppula.

you hate him, it's okay, just admit it. wings7 hates him, redwingsabner hates him and lilja4mvp hates everyone. I don't care, but admit it to yourself, for yourself.



Actually, in real life, I'm Andrew Ladd. I am starting to warm to him. He's a great set-up man.

#107 RedWingAbner

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 05:46 PM

To be fair, I do not hate Filppula, I just think a lot of people on this site go to ridiculous lengths to defend him. I really don't think saying Hossa at 5.4, is a better contract than Val's 3 mil is hate, moreso just my opinion (though I can't fathom how people disagree). Notice that I never did say Filppula was overpaid, I really think he isn't, just that his contract money would be better spent elsewhere, especailly on a team that is in desperate need of a better goal scorer.


This is my view as well.

#108 Finnish Wing

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:39 PM

Filppula has Selke potential and he will easily be better than Hossa in couple of years.
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#109 RedWingAbner

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:48 PM

Filppula has Selke potential and he will easily be better than Hossa in couple of years.



Someone said something about ridiculous lengths a while back. I can't find an example of that anywh....nevermind.

In all seriousness, Filppula will never be better than Hossa unless we are talking about Marcel.

#110 vOrophin

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:49 PM

Filppula has Selke potential and he will easily be better than Hossa in couple of years.


I'd say the potential thing is correct - although that assumes he keeps improving. Whether he will be better than Hossa in a few years is hard to say since Hossa is a damn good player.

This year Hossa would probably do the Wings more good since they have been lacking mightily in scoring, and Fil still has not developed a great scoring touch.

#111 EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:55 PM

Filppula has Selke potential and he will easily be better than Hossa in couple of years.

I'm sorry but its posts like these that make me think Filppula is majorly overrated on these boards.

Considering that at Filppula's age, Hossa was comparable on defense and already a consistent point per game producer who was notching 30 + goals, I really doubt Filppula will accelerate into a top 20 forward in the league, and even in the astronomically low percentage chance that it does happen, it would be anything but easy.

I understand obvious nationalistic bias, but for one would be shocked if Filppula ever consistently broke 70 points for more than a 3 year span, though his recent good play has made me have faith in his ability to be a great 2nd line defensive center capable of 65+ points. Kinda like a Saku Koivu/Brendan Morrison in their primes.

Edited by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA, 08 March 2010 - 10:04 PM.

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#112 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 08:24 PM

In my mind I do not have a fascination with Filppula, It's just based on his salary, young age, and potential, he is the most discusable player in trade threads and topics such as these.

I got a lot of flack for suggesting (not even advocating, mind you), that if the Wing's were to get a valuable star player such as Kovalchuk at this trade deadline, Filppula would have to have been gone in a package as a centerpiece. He was the only player who was expendable, had enough cap space to let us accquire a big name, and would be one of the only valuable on roster players that other teams would want (the other being Kronwall, but imo he is untouchable, injuries and all).

I've been labeled a hater for saying that I liked Hudler and thought he was more taletned and valuable to the team than Filppula last season, and I still stand by that, given the wing's strengths weaknesses and needs. As for the more talented thing about Hudler, I honestly feel that Hudler had more natural talent thanf****** Hossa and Franzen, this does not mean I think he is a better player, but honestly the moves Hudler could crank out, and the shots he could snipe were nothing short of incredible. This does not mean I hate Filppula, I have actually agreed that in many other circumstances, I would think Filppula contract is even good, just not nessasary for this team, as I feel he is being underutilized. He has the talent and deserves to be a 2nd line center, and on 20-25 teams in the NHL he would be a goddamn good one, but the Team works best with him on the third line, which I think is a disservice both to the team and him.

I have already explained numerous times that in Hindsight, I think we should have let him been poached giving us a legitiment chance to resign Hossa, and while some may disagree and offer consturctive counter arguements, I really do not think it all that difficult to understand how someone would have the opinion that is mine, as I certainly understand how people think he has too much potetnial to trade away (though I disagree, I can see how they would think that). The reason I keep talking about him in this thread is... well it'sf****** about him. I really do not think this means I have an utter fasination with him.

Now that I have explained my "fasination with Filppula" Could you please explain your fasination with never adding anything constructive, and calling me out with false assumptions?

Okay then...

Just was being curious, seems like you talk about him a lot more than other stuff on here, not sure if it's really worth making this big a deal out of...

Edited by SouthernWingsFan, 08 March 2010 - 08:28 PM.


#113 gcom007

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:38 PM

I remember a report saying that Hossa wanted a 4.3 million cap hit for 9 years with the wings, obviously frontloaded.

We could have afforded one of Bertuzzi + Williams, or saved up when that 2nd and 3rd rounders we would have gotten at the very minimum grow into good players.


This still almost brings me to tears...

pure speculation, how many viable sources said this?


It was reported numerous times here and there (as best as I can remember...) that around $40 million over 9-10 years was Hossa's goal. I remember it specifically being said that he couldn't reasonably go below a $4 million hit and that what he was looking for was really pushing it. Aside from it simply being far more than fair to go so low in the first place when you're a premier player, one cannot forget all the political BS from the NHLPA these guys have to contend with, whether you think it's right or wrong. While I don't remember it being said directly by anyone from the Hossa camp, I have to imagine that it would at some point be a factor. After all, this contract would've been signed a year after Jeff Finger's 4-year $3.5 million deal.

I know some people around here thinks that they're paid enough, no one can really blame Hossa for drawing some lines in the sand with the Wings. Again, based on multiple things he and Holland said about the numbers, it's real hard to say Hossa wasn't being more than fair and accommodating in trying to find a number the Wings could afford and he could justify to himself and the anyone in the NHLPA looking over his shoulder.

And like I've said, I'd say Hossa at $5 million >>> Flip+Hudler and I'd go so far as to say as Hossa at closer to $6 million >>> Flip+Hudler+(fill in maybe a Bertuzzi-sized blank perhaps).

Don't forget that the cap has continued to go up. Signing Hossa at $4.5 million for example might seem rough by the end of his career, but it might be just right or even a bargain depending on how the cap goes, and it's likely to keep going up.

-Elliot


#114 Z and D for the C

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:39 PM

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic


Werd

Actually, in real life, I'm Andrew Ladd. I am starting to warm to him. He's a great set-up man.


So....maybe.....he's not overpaid? :ph34r:

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#115 gcom007

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:53 PM

Well of course Filppula is going to get more PK time, you don't tire out a star player like Hossa playing heavy PK minutes when you have ready and capable role players like Val.

Through my observations there is only one form of defensive responsibility that Filpulla clearly outplays Hossa in and that is PK postioning, as Filppula normally takes the more defenseive route wheras from time to time Hossa would try to spring rushes from the PK, which isnt a bad thing but not the primary objective. That is the only thing Filppula is better than defensivily than Hossa, though some of the catagories and attributes are close.

On even strength tendancies such as Backchecking and being able to hold off opposing defenders to buy time on the penalty kill it isn't even close. In addition Filppula is more prone to turnovers in the defensive zone. When's the last time you've seen Hossa giftwrap a goal to the other team?


THANK YOU!!!

For as often as he says we're the illogical ones, you'd think he'd at least be able to keep some of the rudimentary stuff clear...

I think Flip's real solid on D to be certain, but I'd still never say he's better than Hossa on D or even close to it. Flip could get closer if he was just stronger, but he's not. I don't know if he's literally not strong in terms of physical muscle mass or if he just doesn't know how to use his strength, but the guy gets pushed around out there game after game and falls way too much.

And no one can realistically say that many out-hustle Hossa either. The Flip fans love to go down the "he's a hard worker road," but when Hossa was here, there was no question as to who was working the hardest out there on every shift. That was a huge reason so many fell in love with him right off the bat. He was the perfect fit for a Wing. He had a ton of talent, but he was also humble, dedicated to playing a complete game and a tireless worker every damn shift.

The only reason he's got anyone around here talking crap about him is because the playoffs didn't go so well for him and he ended up leaving. It doesn't matter to them that he was injured, and probably far more so than was let on after the fact. He took a dirty, dirty hit from Pronger early in the Anaheim series, and I don't think he looked the same after that. Maybe it put the shoulder over the edge or maybe it was something else, but there's no way he was healthy in the playoffs.

If he ended up getting signed and he came back from surgery and played as well for us as he has for Chicago, he'd be universally loved by this place again, and no one would give a damn about Flip and Hudler being gone. Instead of this thread, it'd be, "Flip who?"

-Elliot


#116 gcom007

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:17 PM

really?? Not even close?
I'll tell you one thing I saw was Flip doing great in the playoffs while Hossa didn't do jack s***.


Right.......

A healthy Flip scored a whopping 3 goals and racked up some assists over a long playoff run. People look at that and say it's Flip at his best, and then compare him to Hossa at his worst while dealing with injuries. Hossa still managed to net 6 goals, and those goals win games. He also had some assists. He also continued to play well defensively.

Let's try to balance out a great, healthy playoff performance with a great, healthy playoff performance. Try comparing Hossa's 2008 playoff performance with Flip's 2009 playoff performance.

How did Hossa do the previous year on the Pens run? He put up some pretty solid point totals, no? I believe many were arguing that he was the Pens best player throughout that playoff run, despite the presence of Crosby. Injured Malkin doesn't count. I try to play fair and not twist facts to suit my ridiculous assertions.

"I'll tell you one thing I saw was Hossa doing great in the playoffs while Malkin didn't do jack s***." And Flip's no Malkin...

I don't live to make excuses for guys, and Yzerman is my favorite because he did more on one leg than most did on two, but I have no idea how he did that and I know of no other guys who have been able to play at his level with his degree of injuries. I think it's even fair to consider how "fragile" a guy is when considering contracts and overall return, but here's the thing...Hossa's typically been a pretty healthy guy. Hell, think about Franzen and Kronwall and you shift uncomfortably a bit, then you try to stop thinking about it. That's what I'm doing right now! And what about that other guy...

While I don't want to hop on a hate-Datsyuk train seeing as I am a huge Datsyuk defender if there ever was one, even if you want to talk about injuries and durability, historically Hossa would be a better bet. I love Datsyuk, but that guy has wound up with serious injuries in the playoffs too many times. Again, not saying we should dump him at all, just trying to reinforce the idea that you're not going to make much sense ripping on Hossa in general based on last years playoff performance.

You can say you prefer keeping the cap hit lower and the contracts shorter with lower priced guys like Flip. That's fair. That's your opinion. But your quoted statement is of an utterly stupid nature, and I think you're smart enough to admit that. So try sticking to something you can actually defend logically. No one likes injuries, and you can't handicap who wins and loses based on injuries. But that doesn't mean we can't be objective about who has far more potential to produce when it counts.

And if we're going to be logical and try to build him up, comparing his performance to that of an injured star is just a s***ty stance to begin with. If I were playing devils advocate and trying to defend Flip, I'd try to avoid any and all comparisons with Hossa's performance in the off-season because anyone with half a brain knows that if Hossa was healthy he would've played circles around Flip.

-Elliot


#117 Z and D for the C

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:35 PM

Hossa is undoubtedly the better back checker, but in the defensive zone I'd say they're the same.

and gcom, let me say that the only other red wing I liked as much as Flip last year was Hossa.


And this thread seems to be turning into a "Who is better" thread. There is no doubt that Hossa is twice the player Filppula is. It's stupid to argue. And frankly, this is just a stupid thread. It comes down to a personal opinion that can't be argued.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 08 March 2010 - 10:37 PM.

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#118 titanium2

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:51 PM

Filppula has Selke potential and he will easily be better than Hossa in couple of years.


Haha. People around here know that this guy justf****** with you all right?

#119 gcom007

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:58 PM

IF flip is playing so s***ty why would he get a raise?


Entitlement? Jeff Finger?

Unless Flip improves dramatically on offense, I don't believe he'll get a raise at all, even considering inflation. So long as Hank and Dats are here, he's a 3rd line center on this team. Ken Holland gambled once on a 3rd line center hoping he'd blossom into a guy who could generate more offense. He's yet to do that, and I can't see him getting as good of a contract from the Wings again. I've said numerous times he's worth more to other teams in general, so I imagine that he'll either take less or similar money to stay a Wing or he'll walk as a free agent. That is if he isn't traded beforehand. He's still the easiest guy on the team to trade that could actually net a descent return. So if Holland ever needs to make a move of a bigger nature, I won't be surprised if I read that Flip is involved.

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#120 gcom007

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 11:32 PM

Without starting a new thread:

Hossa at 5.4 or Flip + Hudler at 5.85?

To me it's not even close when you put it that way, flip and huds everytime.


I'd still take Hossa. I believe I said it earlier in this thread, but a player of Hossa's caliber is going to make the $1-2 million players around him look like $3-4 million players. Stars have that ability, and it's not often accounted for when thinking plain old numbers. Flip's a dependable guy with a strong defensive game and Hudler is an inconsistent little guy who manages to put up ridiculous numbers considering his ice time. It's not like anyone can look at either and say they're remotely bad, but I still say give me a 150% guy like Hossa; give me the star.

Hossa can put up the points of Flip and Hudler combined and play great on D as well. Plus, the whole "making the $1-2 million guys better" thing, but let's go a little deeper. How does it look to all those other players when a genuine star like Hossa busts ass as hard or harder than anyone else on the ice game after game? What message does that send to the other guys? And what message does it send when a genuine star takes a huge discount to play on a great team without jeopardizing the entire cap structure? Sure, it's a front-loaded deal arguably worth far more than the cap hit, but make no mistake, everyone and their mother knows that he could have racked up even more than Chicago deal ended up netting him if he went to a weaker team or played more of a short term game. A lot of teams would pay have $8 million a year easy for 5-6 years, maybe more! Remember the summer before he signed with the Wings? He turned down A LOT of money to come here...

So which option is going to send a better message to a team?

A top-notch star like Hossa who takes a sizable discounts to play on a contender while leaving cap room to avoid having to be a one-man show? Then going on to outwork just about everyone every day, leading by example in pushing himself to be the first forward into the offensive zone and the first forward back to cover on D.

The other option?

You have a couple more of these middle of the road guys like Flip and Hudler, each taking around $3 million a year. One's a hard worker who can't score and the other is a bit of a defensive liability who hasn't figured out how to stay out of the coach's doghouse. Even one of Flip's most ardent fans here has admitted that he hasn't played up to his contract yet. Neither (if Hudler was playing out his contract this year) could really be considered drastically overpaid, but then again, Hossa at $4.5 million, or even $5.2 million, certainly falls under the category of "underpaid" by NHL standards.

And are our younger guys just coming up into the system going to learn more from Hudler and Flip or someone like Hossa?

While it's certainly just my opinion, I think the Hossa angle trumps these other angles, all the more so when you consider that we would really only be in cap hell for one year most likely. This year was hell any way you look at it, but it lightens up for us come July 1, 2010. And the way this season is gone, I'd rather have bet long-run and taken the Hossa deal, possibly leading to a weaker team this season. I felt the same way a year ago that I do now that I'm in it: either way this year went, it was going to be rough. I think Hossa would've been a better long-run move for this team rather than letting him slip away because of what will likely amount to one ultra-cap-crunched year. I don't think we could have possibly had a worse season than we've had in doing so...

-Elliot






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