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Questioning the Wings Leadership


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#41 The Secret

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 09:44 AM

This is a mediocre team. Mediocre D. Mediocre goaltending. Mediocre skill. Mediocre leadership. We should expect them to be around the middle of the pack, because they just aren't that good. This team isn't good enough to dominate its opponenents consistantly and it doesn't have the heart to do the little things that make mediocre teams into contenders. There was only one Jarome Iginla on the ice last night and he was on the other team. A goal and an assist when his team needed him most - leading by example, yelling from the bench, willing to do anything necesarry to get that win. The league doesn't have a surplus of Captains like that, and it sucks that all teams can't have one, but that's the way it goes.


Very nicely put Micah! Maybe this team has the pieces capable of making this a better team but the heart is not there most of the time... and inspired effort by one or 2 player now and then isn't going to cut it. I wish we could inject Helm's effort and work ethic into the rest of the team... then we'd see some change immediately

#42 F.Michael

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 09:45 AM

How the hell does Babcock hold a lead from the bench? In the end the players are on the ice and have to do the work. Babcock got raving reviews from the Canadian players from the Olympics and the coaching staff and everyone else... there is only so much he can do. One thing he can't is play for the players... they have to want to do what he says. Also, how is he mishandling the goalies? We are starved for points and he is playing the goalie that is playing the best... The End! He doesn't have the wiggle room to throw Osgood in to lose games until he can find his way out of his slump and play better. Howard is playing better then Osgood (which isn't saying much) and so he gets the starts... neither goalie is playing great but Howard is playing better then Osgood.

Agree with the bolded sentence 100%.

If Bowman were coaching this team - half the players would be sitiing due to their bone-headed plays.

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#43 mindfly

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:04 AM

This is a mediocre team. Mediocre D. Mediocre goaltending. Mediocre skill. Mediocre leadership. We should expect them to be around the middle of the pack, because they just aren't that good. This team isn't good enough to dominate its opponenents consistantly and it doesn't have the heart to do the little things that make mediocre teams into contenders. There was only one Jarome Iginla on the ice last night and he was on the other team. A goal and an assist when his team needed him most - leading by example, yelling from the bench, willing to do anything necesarry to get that win. The league doesn't have a surplus of Captains like that, and it sucks that all teams can't have one, but that's the way it goes.

But they were able to dominate games during the 07/08 season with a pretty much similar roster....does that mean other team's gotten way better?

Edited by mindfly, 10 March 2010 - 10:04 AM.


#44 Dave

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:08 AM

I honestly have no recollection of Lemaire teaching Babcock anything :unsure:


From this article

Babcock makes no secret that in Detroit, he has taken many of Lemaire's beliefs and polished them for himself. In fact, the Red Wings use Lemaire's precise penalty kill.



#45 ltgator333

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:38 AM

I'm not so sure it's a leadership issue, it may very well be, but I also think it could be an issue of the players that need the leadership are getting it and are unable to respond. I think that Lidstrom played well enough last night, as did the top line, arguably the second.

Guys that I noticed were the likes of Cleary, Flip, Willy, and Miller. They were either near non-factors in the game and/or got shut down the same way repeatedly (Flip). These are all skilled-enough players that didn't do jack last night. Then there's Z- I don't think there's anything wrong with the guy other than he needs a winger who can go in the corners/boards and get him the puck. He's good at it himself considering his size, but considering his size he shouldn't have to be the only guy on his line that can do it. As for Cleary and Williams, they're two skill guys who just don't seem to have another gear. Cleary has been flat out disappointing this year imo. Miller- his flashes of brilliance appear to be over, and I really see no reason for him to be anywhere outside the bottom two lines. If he can play better than he is, let him prove it like anyone else has to.

I do get tired of Babcock doing what appears to be playing favorites- and speaking of which anyone notice how Howard's starting to burn out? I am TOTALLY NOT knocking the guy- the fact he's playing as well as he is makes me want him around Detroit for a long time, but he's not as sharp as he's been in the past and you can't help but wonder if it's due to the superstar goalie level of games he's played. The problem with the situation is obvious- Babcock has painted himself into a corner where the only escape is for Howard to hold up or Osgood to pull something out of his arse, again .

Oh and, I am finally liking the bottom defensive pairing. It's the top two pairings I am absolutely sick and tired of. Not the players themselves, but the way they're used. You've got two defensemen that can't/won't hit together, with two wrecking machines together. Get a clue and spread it out already!
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#46 ManLuv4Clears

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:38 AM

I'm with Micah and The Secret on this one. With the exception of a couple players it seems like there's no drive or heart out on the ice. The team for the most part seems complacent and like it's going thru the motions. Everyone thinks the likes of a Hudler is the missing piece because he can score a goal or two, but how about backing checking hard, blocking shots, and caring about not being scored on. It's been said defense wins championships.

#47 micah

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:55 AM

But they were able to dominate games during the 07/08 season with a pretty much similar roster....does that mean other team's gotten way better?


No, we've gotton worse. The roster in 07/08 was not all that similar.

For the playoffs, we had Dallas Drake and Darren McCarty playing in most of the games. These guys don't contribute much on the scorboard, but they do contribute what Lidstrom either cannot or chooses not to - a "whatever it takes" attitude.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg were playing like Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Aging Haasek, prime Ozzie and young Howard is better than aging Ozzie and almost-prime Howard.

Lids was the best Dman in the league in 07/08. Many nights he isn't the best Dman on the ice.
"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#48 mindfly

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 11:08 AM

No, we've gotton worse. The roster in 07/08 was not all that similar.

For the playoffs, we had Dallas Drake and Darren McCarty playing in most of the games. These guys don't contribute much on the scorboard, but they do contribute what Lidstrom either cannot or chooses not to - a "whatever it takes" attitude.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg were playing like Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Aging Haasek, prime Ozzie and young Howard is better than aging Ozzie and almost-prime Howard.

Lids was the best Dman in the league in 07/08. Many nights he isn't the best Dman on the ice.

I agree that Drake was awesome but Mccarty.. come on.

Datsyuk plays like datsyuk but i agree that zetterberg is s*** so thats a bad one for detroit

So osgood goes from prime osgood to aging osgood in two years.. wow :o.. howard is almost prime now? hah it's his first season his prime is maybe in 5-6 years

Lidstrom today is a little bit worse than 08-lids but as he's playing now in the 2nd part of the season he's the best dman on ice 80-90% of the times atleast.

Edited by mindfly, 10 March 2010 - 11:10 AM.


#49 micah

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 11:30 AM

I agree that Drake was awesome but Mccarty.. come on.

Datsyuk plays like datsyuk but i agree that zetterberg is s*** so thats a bad one for detroit

So osgood goes from prime osgood to aging osgood in two years.. wow :o.. howard is almost prime now? hah it's his first season his prime is maybe in 5-6 years

Lidstrom today is a little bit worse than 08-lids but as he's playing now in the 2nd part of the season he's the best dman on ice 80-90% of the times atleast.



I disagree with most here.

I think Mac made a idfference - though if he did its certainly a hard difference to measure.

This is the beginning of Howard's prime. He will not be a better goalie in 5-6 years than he is today.

Lidstrom is not even close to being the perfect machine he was in 07/08. He hasn't just fallen off a little bit, he's fallen more than I thought possible in 2 years for a great player who seldom gets hit or hurt. He's certainly still above average, but it looks to me that his days counted among the league's best are behind him.
"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#50 Doc Holliday

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 11:57 AM

No, we've gotton worse. The roster in 07/08 was not all that similar.

For the playoffs, we had Dallas Drake and Darren McCarty playing in most of the games. These guys don't contribute much on the scorboard, but they do contribute what Lidstrom either cannot or chooses not to - a "whatever it takes" attitude.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg were playing like Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Aging Haasek, prime Ozzie and young Howard is better than aging Ozzie and almost-prime Howard.

Lids was the best Dman in the league in 07/08. Many nights he isn't the best Dman on the ice.


1. You are once again overvaluing the roles of guys like Drake and Mac, considering there are plenty of guys on the roster who have their same attitude yet nothing is getting done.

2. Who has been playing better than Lidstrom? Can't be Rafalski. Can't be Stuart. Can't be Kronwall. Can't be Ericsson. Is it Lilja? Maybe Lebda?

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#51 mindfly

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 11:59 AM

1. You are once again overvaluing the roles of guys like Drake and Mac, considering there are plenty of guys on the roster who have their same attitude yet nothing is getting done.

2. Who has been playing better than Lidstrom? Can't be Rafalski. Can't be Stuart. Can't be Kronwall. Can't be Ericsson. Is it Lilja? Maybe Lebda?

Think he meant other team's D as well... i can only see keith, doughty, weber above lidstrom to be honest

#52 Doc Holliday

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:06 PM

Think he meant other team's D as well... i can only see keith, doughty, weber above lidstrom to be honest


My mistake. Even that is ridiculous. He was the best defenseman on the ice last night and because of him not only did Ignila not get a good chance on a breakaway but it caused Datsyuk to score. He is a quite defenseman out there and he has been getting better.

Considering he is a +19 on a team that is -5 (don't forget the next two guys from him are his defensive partner and selke winner who are +16 and +11 respectively), has 41 points on a nothing offense (and is steadily getting more and more each game), and has stopped players like Kane and Igninla (save last night) for most of the season I think he has been one of the better defensemen most nights.

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#53 micah

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:33 PM

1. You are once again overvaluing the roles of guys like Drake and Mac, considering there are plenty of guys on the roster who have their same attitude yet nothing is getting done.


Name some.

2. Who has been playing better than Lidstrom? Can't be Rafalski. Can't be Stuart. Can't be Kronwall. Can't be Ericsson. Is it Lilja? Maybe Lebda?


The other team has defensemen too. Defensemen that have been doing their share to prevent Lids, Dats, Zetts et al from scoring as they have in previous years..

Z: .91 points per game current, .94 last year, 1.23 2 years ago.
D: .88 points per game current, 1.20 last year, 1.18 2 years ago.
L: .62 points per game current, .76 last year, .92 2 years ago.

Gotta give some props to our opponents for our superstars' collective bed-s***ting, right?

That said, I still figure it's more a lack of desire by our euro-stars than anything else. Even in international play, they just couldn't seem to be bothered to care.
"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#54 Doc Holliday

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:36 PM

Name some.


Helm, Eaves. Two players to your two.


The other team has defensemen too. Defensemen that have been doing their share to prevent Lids, Dats, Zetts et al from scoring as they have in previous years..

Z: .91 points per game current, .94 last year, 1.23 2 years ago.
D: .88 points per game current, 1.20 last year, 1.18 2 years ago.
L: .62 points per game current, .76 last year, .92 2 years ago.

Gotta give some props to our opponents for our superstars' collective bed-s***ting, right?

That said, I still figure it's more a lack of desire by our euro-stars than anything else. Even in international play, they just couldn't seem to be bothered to care.


I'm sure it is a lack of desire. Euro players just don't have the same drive for hockey as North American players do. Right?

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#55 micah

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:42 PM

Helm, Eaves. Two players to your two.


Helm and Eaves are like Drake and Mac? In that they're both carbon based forms of life I suppose.


I'm sure it is a lack of desire. Euro players just don't have the same drive for hockey as North American players do. Right?


I don't think that's true at all - I think that the three specific Euro-Wings in question have been under-performing this year, partially due to a sometimes apparent lack of effort.
"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#56 GMRwings1983

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:46 PM

Helm, Eaves. Two players to your two.




I'm sure it is a lack of desire. Euro players just don't have the same drive for hockey as North American players do. Right?


I love your sig. Where did you get such a fascinating idea?

Also, your account is screwed up, because I know you've been here longer than 3 months like it says.
According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#57 The Secret

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:48 PM

I'm sure it is a lack of desire. Euro players just don't have the same drive for hockey as North American players do. Right?


It's not a lack of drive that differentiates the 2 as much as a different style. Puck possession is a Euro players dream system... Old schooled hard nosed, take a lump give a lump style thats needed when the puck possession isn't working does not suit most Euro players!

#58 T.Low

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:56 PM

The Red Wings jumped the shark last year when Staal went around Rafalski for the short handed goal in the finals. They haven't been the same since.

They've had an amazing run, one of the most amazing in all of sports. All good things must come to an end.

#59 mindfly

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:58 PM

The Red Wings jumped the shark last year when Staal went around Rafalski for the short handed goal in the finals. They haven't been the same since.

They've had an amazing run, one of the most amazing in all of sports. All good things must come to an end.

You're making us all suicidal :(


I wonder how long time it will take to get back to the quality this latest run have had 1 bounce back season? 3years? 5years? 10years?

#60 Inultus

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 01:10 PM

I'm hoping it's just this one year. We've got the talent, but those injuries really hurt us before, and it's hard to come back and not be frustrated by that.
"It's been six years since we won the Cup. That's too long." -Nick Lidstrom

"my message is simple: The next time anyone runs any of our guys in a way that shouldn't be done, then a message will be sent. I'm not going to go out and run your skill guys, your superstars. I'm going to go right to the guy (who did it), and fair justice is fair justice." -Downey





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