Filppula following similar path to Datsyuk...?

[RedWingedKitten 9]

I'm expecting the last year of his contract to be a freaking steal. --> I'm guessing his value will be around 5 million by then. /knocks on wood

My name is... Filppula the mic-rula, and old-schoola.

[Buppy 1,720]

I love Fil, but let's be honest. One of his goals last night was flukey and the other was an empty netter. 6 points in 3 games is still real nice though.

Flukey rebound, but great awareness and reaction to turn it into a goal. Good patience on the empty net as well. The goal against Pittsburgh was much better though. Might be the first time I've seen him really pull a move to specifically create a shot for himself. Earlier this year even, he'd have turned into the boards and looked for someone to pass to.

That said, of course Flip won't ever be at Pav's level. I still think he'd be a better center, but this is now two short stints playing wing where he's looked fantastic. Maybe he needs to be out of his comfort zone in order to play with instinct and stop over-thinking. Still not convinced he's really what we need for a top 6 winger though.

[eva unit zero 271]

Can we get a mod to just close the 93 "Filppula is the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg!!" threads that we have?

Filppula is NOT GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR PLAYER IN THE NHL.

Filppula's offensive production and awareness is not "following a similar path" to Datsyuk.

Filppula last season, beginning the year at 24, playing second-line and third-line center depending on the night, usually with offensively skilled linemates, scored 40 points in 80 games. Datsyuk in 2002-03, beginning the year at 24, playing as the third-line center, scored 51 points in 64 games.

The next year, Datsyuk scored 68 points in 75 games. Filppula currently has 34 points in 46 games, which would project to 55 points over 75 games.

In the meantime, just as a point of reference, Jiri Hudler in 2008-09, beginning the year at 24, scored 57 points in 82 games playing on either the third or fourth line all year, usually with unskilled linemates.

Slava Kozlov scored 45 points in 75 games when he was 24.

Ray Whitney scored 2 points in 12 games when he was 24, missing 70 with injury, but had already scored 106 in 160 the previous three seasons, and would continue on for his career as a reliable 65-70 point scorer.

Filppula has shown he can produce offensively in a secondary role, but he won't ever be any more than that. Sorry to pop your bubble. Flip will peak at 45-55 points and probably produce that kind of level for a few years during his prime, but he simply doesn't have the talent or the potential to be the kind of offensive force Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Hudler are. Hudler, OTOH, could be a consistent PPG player if/when he returns. He's got all the offensive ability, he's got offensive IQ better than all but a few players in the world, and all he needs, a bit more speed, a bit more ice time, and maybe a linemate who is better than Kirk Maltby.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

i like how eva managed to sneak Hudler in there

[Finnish Wing 110]

Can we get a mod to just close the 93 "Filppula is the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg!!" threads that we have?

Filppula is NOT GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR PLAYER IN THE NHL.

Filppula's offensive production and awareness is not "following a similar path" to Datsyuk.

Filppula last season, beginning the year at 24, playing second-line and third-line center depending on the night, usually with offensively skilled linemates, scored 40 points in 80 games. Datsyuk in 2002-03, beginning the year at 24, playing as the third-line center, scored 51 points in 64 games.

The next year, Datsyuk scored 68 points in 75 games. Filppula currently has 34 points in 46 games, which would project to 55 points over 75 games.

In the meantime, just as a point of reference, Jiri Hudler in 2008-09, beginning the year at 24, scored 57 points in 82 games playing on either the third or fourth line all year, usually with unskilled linemates.

Slava Kozlov scored 45 points in 75 games when he was 24.

Ray Whitney scored 2 points in 12 games when he was 24, missing 70 with injury, but had already scored 106 in 160 the previous three seasons, and would continue on for his career as a reliable 65-70 point scorer.

Filppula has shown he can produce offensively in a secondary role, but he won't ever be any more than that. Sorry to pop your bubble. Flip will peak at 45-55 points and probably produce that kind of level for a few years during his prime, but he simply doesn't have the talent or the potential to be the kind of offensive force Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Hudler are. Hudler, OTOH, could be a consistent PPG player if/when he returns. He's got all the offensive ability, he's got offensive IQ better than all but a few players in the world, and all he needs, a bit more speed, a bit more ice time, and maybe a linemate who is better than Kirk Maltby.

I think he won't ever be the next Datsyuk, but I disagree here. He's already on a 60 point pace this season. Dunno why he couldn't do it next season. Dunno why he couldn't add 10 points more to that after that season. And that would be the peak.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Yeah got to love the 'Flip will peak at 45' points when he's on track to absolutely smash that if he was fit all season.

And Hudler had to be brought up didn't he eva? I like Hudler, a lot, but seing him sneak into nearly every one of your posts is annoying.

[titanium2 867]

Looks like Fil is winning this puck battle.

He probably was for a second but then had it taken away.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Looks like Fil is winning this puck battle.

He probably was for a second but then had it taken away.

You don't win puck battles against Pavel Datsyuk. You only hope to extend the amount of time you have the puck before he takes it away from you.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

For all those that refer to Hulder putting up 57 points and argue that he would be a ppg player playing top line minutes, I really think you can get into trouble using that logic. It is very rare for extrapalations to translate into actual sucess.

The people that argue this need to realize that Hudler did in fact get top line powerplay time last season, and are including his power play minutes when extrapalating his minutes played. In all actuality, if Hudler were to be on a top line, his power play minutes would not increase. This is the fail in that "Hudler would be a PPG player with 18-20 min agame logic, because he had only 29 points of his 57 in 5on5 play. Half of his points were power play points.

[godwings19 0]

i think Filppula will be more of a two way foward than Datsyuk... he will always be on a second or third line..... Hudler blows! Too small!

Edited March 26, 2010 by godwings19

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Yeah got to love the 'Flip will peak at 45' points when he's on track to absolutely smash that if he was fit all season.

And Hudler had to be brought up didn't he eva? I like Hudler, a lot, but seing him sneak into nearly every one of your posts is annoying.

Agreed. That post was utterly ridiculous. Flip could get 40 points in 55 games. 45 point player peak

[Shaman 713]

There are a few assumptions here. First, Flip has been money since he came back, but, hes kinda streaky as a player, so I can't buy the argument 'if he played x number of games he'd have x number of points' you CAN'T know that. While I think Eva low balled it, I think hes essentially right, Flip isn't as offensively talented as other players on the Wings, in fact I would argue that hes the 6th most talented on this current team, and 7th if you count Hudler. He has a lot of talent, hes a great rounded centermen, hes got great defensive awareness and hes an above average puck handler, but lets not go crazy, Dats is a rare talent, Flip is a second tier talent (on the level of a Jordan Staal type player). I am not trying to knock him, its just that people here have an unrealistic expectations for certain players, and we are all guilty of it (I thought Leino was good for 40+ points). So just keep in mind, Flip is what he is, he does a great job with it, don't try to make him anything more.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Shaman464

[Drake_Marcus 890]

The numbers shown there make no sense, which is why I hate using stats for an argument (or just maybe dislike an obsession with numbers) and am really turned off by people's manipulation of them. The stats used for Pavel's are his 1st and 2nd season as a Red Wing. The stats used for Flip's are 4th and 5th seasons. How are these alike at all?

That's why there's a difference between posting some random stats and understanding them. The onus is on you to understand how the stats apply and treat them accordingly. The fact that some people misuse stats does not mean they're any less useful to people with a rudimentary background in math (which is not the same thing as having "an obsession with numbers").

[Finnish Wing 110]

There are a few assumptions here. First, Flip has been money since he came back, but, hes kinda streaky as a player, so I can't buy the argument 'if he played x number of games he'd have x number of points' you CAN'T know that. While I think Eva low balled it, I think hes essentially right, Flip isn't as offensively talented as other players on the Wings, in fact I would argue that hes the 6th most talented on this current team, and 7th if you count Hudler. He has a lot of talent, hes a great rounded centermen, hes got great defensive awareness and hes an above average puck handler, but lets not go crazy, Dats is a rare talent, Flip is a second tier talent (on the level of a Jordan Staal type player). I am not trying to knock him, its just that people here have an unrealistic expectations for certain players, and we are all guilty of it (I thought Leino was good for 40+ points). So just keep in mind, Flip is what he is, he does a great job with it, don't try to make him anything more.

I kinda agree. But the fact is that offensive talent doesn't always translate as production where as defensive plays may well do it. Williams is probably better stick handler and skill guy than Filppula, but those little plays like fore-checking and lifting the stick can create good opportunities. I'd say Filppula is better offensive producer than Williams even if he can't do that fancy shootout move. Leino probably has more skill too than Filppula, yet he can't provide offense.

[kook_10 1,705]

I kinda agree. But the fact is that offensive talent doesn't always translate as production where as defensive plays may well do it. Williams is probably better stick handler and skill guy than Filppula, but those little plays like fore-checking and lifting the stick can create good opportunities. I'd say Filppula is better offensive producer than Williams even if he can't do that fancy shootout move. Leino probably has more skill too than Filppula, yet he can't provide offense.

One of Val's biggest selling points is his ability to create space for his linemates. While his hands, offensive poise, and general stickhandling are still developing he is a great skater and has shown a great ability to make a cut with speed at the blueline and curl up along the halfboards and take two guys with him. He is always going to have 2-3x as many as assists as he has goals.

[Z and D for the C 712]

In the meantime, just as a point of reference, Jiri Hudler in 2008-09, beginning the year at 24, scored 57 points in 82 games playing on either the third or fourth line all year, usually with unskilled linemates.

blah blah blah blah

Filppula has shown he can produce offensively in a secondary role, but he won't ever be any more than that. Sorry to pop your bubble. Flip will peak at 45-55 points and probably produce that kind of level for a few years during his prime, but he simply doesn't have the talent or the potential to be the kind of offensive force Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Hudler are. Hudler, OTOH, could be a consistent PPG player if/when he returns. He's got all the offensive ability, he's got offensive IQ better than all but a few players in the world, and all he needs, a bit more speed, a bit more ice time, and maybe a linemate who is better than Kirk Maltby.[/font]

Eva you are so incredibly biased. Hudler played with the same teammates last year as Filppula, and he had 5 times the PP time Flip did (Playing on the PP with Hossa/Zetterberg/Franen). STOP WITH THIS FOURTH LINE HUDLER CRAP. The FACT is, Filppula had the EXACT same points per minute ES with the SAME skill of line mates. You could even make the argument that Filppula's would be HIGHER than Hudler's if Flip didn't play in all situations (ie in the last minutes of a game where you're not trying to score).

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?selForward=DETFILPPULA%2CVALTTERI&period=ALL&situation=EV&games=2008-2009%3AR%3A99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?selForward=DETHUDLER%2CJIRI&period=ALL&situation=EV&games=2008-2009%3AR%3A99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go

And again, since Flip has been back from his injury he has been on a 66 point pace. 45-55 tops? Please. Enough of your annoying, biased crap.

When was the last time Hudler had 8 points in 3 games?

Also, Hudler played with Malty a whopping 1.78% of the time. He played on a line of Samuelsson and Zetterberg more than that.

You have been found wrong, you have been found straight LYING. These situations you speak of are delusions in your head.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[Z and D for the C 712]

And since I KNOW that you're just going to say (if you even reply to me at all, frankly I find it unlikely) that Flip's 8 points in 3 games came from playing with Z, something that Hudler never did. Well, here are the facts.

Filppula's line combos this year: http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?chkForward=checkbox&selForward=DETFILPPULA%2CVALTTERI&period=ALL&situation=EV&games=2009-2010%3AR%3A99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go

Hudler's line combos last year: http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?selForward=DETHUDLER%2CJIRI&period=ALL&situation=EV&games=2008-2009%3AR%3A99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go

% time with Zetterberg (included only > 1%):

F: 12.99%

H: 12.54%

Pretty similar, am I right?

Furthermore:

When playing with Z, Hudler played with Franzen or Hossa 61% of the time. Filppula? 0%.

When playing with Z, Hudler played with Cleary 23% of the time. Filppula? 48%. AND, last year Cleary was much better than this year.

With the same chances, Filppula has PROVEN himself in the top 6. Hudler has yet to.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[titanium2 867]

Ooooooh... King of the Filppula slappies versus the King of the Hudler slappies well Happy Birthday to me...

[eva unit zero 271]

Filppula has been getting near 20 minutes per game with Zetterberg plus PP time.

Hudler got 12-13 minutes per game and rarely played with Zetterberg. Furthermore, How many ES goals did Hudler score? How many goals did Hudler score that he had to rely on his teammates to setup? How many times did he get an assist because he passed the puck to a teammate who then made a great play?

Hudler's offense came primarily through his own ability. He scored because of his own talent on most occasions. When he got assists, it was usually because he made a great play that allowed a teammate to score unhindered.

Filppula is a very good defensive forward, but He's not Hudler in the OFFENSIVE end.

Edited March 27, 2010 by eva unit zero

[eva unit zero 271]

For all those that refer to Hulder putting up 57 points and argue that he would be a ppg player playing top line minutes, I really think you can get into trouble using that logic. It is very rare for extrapolations to translate into actual sucess.

The people that argue this need to realize that Hudler did in fact get top line power play time last season, and are including his power play minutes when extrapolating his minutes played. In all actuality, if Hudler were to be on a top line, his power play minutes would not increase. This is the fail in that "Hudler would be a PPG player with 18-20 min a game logic, because he had only 29 points of his 57 in 5on5 play. Half of his points were power play points.

Hudler, playing top-six minutes at even strength with top-six linemates, would likely produce a higher points-per-minute rate at even strength. If you simply project out what Hudler did (29 points in an average 10:37) to an average 15:00, his even strength production jumps to 43 points. That 43-28 ratio is comparable to what most of the league's top scorers, guys who are scoring better than a PPG, have been producing at.

This is why I find it amusing that people think Filppula is comparable to Hudler offensively. Filppula is getting Hudler's PP minutes and playing most of his ES time in the top six, yet he's on pace to score, if hes lucky, about what Hudler did last season.

Probably saying Flip will peak at 55 is a little low, maybe 60-65 is more accurate. But regardless...Hudler in the NHL given the same kind of chance Filppula is getting WILL be a PPG player with 90-100 point potential, if not more. That's not a maybe.

Now, with my mention of Hudler I didn't intend to drag this off topic, simply to show that Filppula's production compared to Datsyuk's was not "Look it's so close, Flip will be a 90-point player and a Hart and Selke candidate but rather to show that while he is developing well, he's probably NOT going to be a superstar, but rather simply a very good two-way forward and strong second line center (possibly first, if the team doesn't have a higher-end center) relied upon by whatever team he plays for to provide secondary playmaking skill and to buffer the PK unit along with the defensive specialists.

Hudler, OTOH, will either develop into a top-scoring center with average or slightly above average defensive skills, or he will be one of if not THE the league's top scoring wingers, with teams hesitating to pay him what his numbers would suggest simply because of his size.

Both have strong careers ahead of them in different roles, and it's quite possible that both will remain with Detroit their entire careers. But Filppula's offense won't match what Hudler produces.

Edited March 27, 2010 by eva unit zero

[Finnish Wing 110]

I'd say Flip's peak is 60-70 and Hudler's 80-90.

[Carman 387]

Flippula is better than Hudler.

Better overall player and doesn't have a s*** attitude and bail on his team.

Flippula's potential is all in his mind. He's physically gifted, great skater, strong on the puck, persistent and engages in physical contact. I would not be surprised to see Flippula's point total rise once he can start getting into the scoring mentality. Either way he's a great, young two way center that will net you at the very least 45ish points.

I'm glad we have him.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Filppula has been getting near 20 minutes per game with Zetterberg plus PP time.

Hudler got 12-13 minutes per game and rarely played with Zetterberg.

Did not not read my posts? Hudler has actually played MORE with Zetterberg last year than Filppula has this year, but Filppula has a lot to show for it, Hudler doesn't have much.

From my last post:

% time with Zetterberg (included only > 1%) at even strength:

F: 12.99%

H: 12.54%

Hudler has 871 minutes at ES last year, so that's 109 minutes with Zettterberg.

Filppula so far this year has 667 minutes at ES, that's 88 minutes with Zetterberg.

And of those 109 minutes that Hudler played with Zetterberg, 66:30 of that was playing with Zetterberg AND Hossa, or Zetterberg AND Franzen. you don't think the Flip and Z combo would be EVEN BETTER than it is now with a superstar like Hossa or a star like Franzen? If Hudler was SO AMAZING like you claim, he would have done half as well has Flip has and those lines would have stuck. They never did.

Hudler, playing top-six minutes at even strength with top-six linemates, would likely produce a higher points-per-minute rate at even strength. If you simply project out what Hudler did (29 points in an average 10:37) to an average 15:00, his even strength production jumps to 43 points. That 43-28 ratio is comparable to what most of the league's top scorers, guys who are scoring better than a PPG, have been producing at.

This is why I find it amusing that people think Filppula is comparable to Hudler offensively. Filppula is getting Hudler's PP minutes and playing most of his ES time in the top six, yet he's on pace to score, if hes lucky, about what Hudler did last season.

First, you can't compare TOI PER GAME with his TOTAL point total. It's apples and oranges. you either compares points per game and TOI per game or points and TOI. I thought you were super good at math or something? But again, you're missing the other side of the argument. Unsurprisingly.

Hulder had 871 ES time last year and scored 29 points = .033 points per minute

Filppula had 1084.5 minutes on ES and scored 36 points = .033 points per minute

Filppula and Hudler produced the same at even strength given their TOI. They had the same linemates.

This is why I find it amusing that people think Filppula is comparable to Hudler offensively. Filppula is getting Hudler's PP minutes and playing most of his ES time in the top six, yet he's on pace to score, if hes lucky, about what Hudler did last season.

I GUARANTEE Filppula will continue to be on pace for as many or more points as Hudler last year. Right now he's on pace for 59. Versus Hudler's 57. He only needs 4/5 more points (depending on how you round) in 8 games to match Hudler's pace last year. 91% think he will.

And sorry you're wrong again, Filppula is NOT getting Hudler's PP minutes. Filppula is getting 2:25 PP TOI per game and Hudler got 3:01 last year. Not to mention Hudler's PP teammates were twice as good as Filppula's this year.

PS: I'm ignoring your worthless rhetoric.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Flippula is better than Hudler.

Better overall player and doesn't have a s*** attitude and bail on his team.

Stopped reading here.

[Carman 387]

Stopped reading here.

You act like it's common for a player to leave a franchise to play over seas for more money in the prime of his career.