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Filppula following similar path to Datsyuk...?


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#41 Z and D for the C

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:41 PM

In the meantime, just as a point of reference, Jiri Hudler in 2008-09, beginning the year at 24, scored 57 points in 82 games playing on either the third or fourth line all year, usually with unskilled linemates.

blah blah blah blah

Filppula has shown he can produce offensively in a secondary role, but he won't ever be any more than that. Sorry to pop your bubble. Flip will peak at 45-55 points and probably produce that kind of level for a few years during his prime, but he simply doesn't have the talent or the potential to be the kind of offensive force Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Hudler are. Hudler, OTOH, could be a consistent PPG player if/when he returns. He's got all the offensive ability, he's got offensive IQ better than all but a few players in the world, and all he needs, a bit more speed, a bit more ice time, and maybe a linemate who is better than Kirk Maltby.[/font]


Eva you are so incredibly biased. Hudler played with the same teammates last year as Filppula, and he had 5 times the PP time Flip did (Playing on the PP with Hossa/Zetterberg/Franen). STOP WITH THIS FOURTH LINE HUDLER CRAP. The FACT is, Filppula had the EXACT same points per minute ES with the SAME skill of line mates. You could even make the argument that Filppula's would be HIGHER than Hudler's if Flip didn't play in all situations (ie in the last minutes of a game where you're not trying to score).

http://www.dobberhoc...nations&sent=go
http://www.dobberhoc...nations&sent=go

And again, since Flip has been back from his injury he has been on a 66 point pace. 45-55 tops? Please. Enough of your annoying, biased crap.

When was the last time Hudler had 8 points in 3 games?

Also, Hudler played with Malty a whopping 1.78% of the time. He played on a line of Samuelsson and Zetterberg more than that.

You have been found wrong, you have been found straight LYING. These situations you speak of are delusions in your head.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 26 March 2010 - 04:57 PM.

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#42 Z and D for the C

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:51 PM

And since I KNOW that you're just going to say (if you even reply to me at all, frankly I find it unlikely) that Flip's 8 points in 3 games came from playing with Z, something that Hudler never did. Well, here are the facts.

Filppula's line combos this year: http://www.dobberhoc...nations&sent=go
Hudler's line combos last year: http://www.dobberhoc...nations&sent=go

% time with Zetterberg (included only > 1%):
F: 12.99%
H: 12.54%

Pretty similar, am I right?

Furthermore:

When playing with Z, Hudler played with Franzen or Hossa 61% of the time. Filppula? 0%.

When playing with Z, Hudler played with Cleary 23% of the time. Filppula? 48%. AND, last year Cleary was much better than this year.


With the same chances, Filppula has PROVEN himself in the top 6. Hudler has yet to.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 26 March 2010 - 04:56 PM.

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#43 titanium2

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 05:09 PM

Ooooooh... King of the Filppula slappies versus the King of the Hudler slappies well Happy Birthday to me... :boxing: :pizza:

#44 eva unit zero

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 08:46 AM

Filppula has been getting near 20 minutes per game with Zetterberg plus PP time.

Hudler got 12-13 minutes per game and rarely played with Zetterberg. Furthermore, How many ES goals did Hudler score? How many goals did Hudler score that he had to rely on his teammates to setup? How many times did he get an assist because he passed the puck to a teammate who then made a great play?

Hudler's offense came primarily through his own ability. He scored because of his own talent on most occasions. When he got assists, it was usually because he made a great play that allowed a teammate to score unhindered.

Filppula is a very good defensive forward, but He's not Hudler in the OFFENSIVE end.

Edited by eva unit zero, 27 March 2010 - 08:48 AM.

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#45 eva unit zero

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 10:00 AM

For all those that refer to Hulder putting up 57 points and argue that he would be a ppg player playing top line minutes, I really think you can get into trouble using that logic. It is very rare for extrapolations to translate into actual sucess.

The people that argue this need to realize that Hudler did in fact get top line power play time last season, and are including his power play minutes when extrapolating his minutes played. In all actuality, if Hudler were to be on a top line, his power play minutes would not increase. This is the fail in that "Hudler would be a PPG player with 18-20 min a game logic, because he had only 29 points of his 57 in 5on5 play. Half of his points were power play points.


Hudler, playing top-six minutes at even strength with top-six linemates, would likely produce a higher points-per-minute rate at even strength. If you simply project out what Hudler did (29 points in an average 10:37) to an average 15:00, his even strength production jumps to 43 points. That 43-28 ratio is comparable to what most of the league's top scorers, guys who are scoring better than a PPG, have been producing at.

This is why I find it amusing that people think Filppula is comparable to Hudler offensively. Filppula is getting Hudler's PP minutes and playing most of his ES time in the top six, yet he's on pace to score, if hes lucky, about what Hudler did last season.

Probably saying Flip will peak at 55 is a little low, maybe 60-65 is more accurate. But regardless...Hudler in the NHL given the same kind of chance Filppula is getting WILL be a PPG player with 90-100 point potential, if not more. That's not a maybe.

Now, with my mention of Hudler I didn't intend to drag this off topic, simply to show that Filppula's production compared to Datsyuk's was not "Look it's so close, Flip will be a 90-point player and a Hart and Selke candidate but rather to show that while he is developing well, he's probably NOT going to be a superstar, but rather simply a very good two-way forward and strong second line center (possibly first, if the team doesn't have a higher-end center) relied upon by whatever team he plays for to provide secondary playmaking skill and to buffer the PK unit along with the defensive specialists.

Hudler, OTOH, will either develop into a top-scoring center with average or slightly above average defensive skills, or he will be one of if not THE the league's top scoring wingers, with teams hesitating to pay him what his numbers would suggest simply because of his size.

Both have strong careers ahead of them in different roles, and it's quite possible that both will remain with Detroit their entire careers. But Filppula's offense won't match what Hudler produces.

Edited by eva unit zero, 27 March 2010 - 10:01 AM.

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#46 Finnish Wing

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 10:24 AM

I'd say Flip's peak is 60-70 and Hudler's 80-90.
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#47 Carman

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 10:37 AM

Flippula is better than Hudler.

Better overall player and doesn't have a s*** attitude and bail on his team.

Flippula's potential is all in his mind. He's physically gifted, great skater, strong on the puck, persistent and engages in physical contact. I would not be surprised to see Flippula's point total rise once he can start getting into the scoring mentality. Either way he's a great, young two way center that will net you at the very least 45ish points.

I'm glad we have him.

#48 Z and D for the C

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 10:50 AM

[font="Book Antiqua"]Filppula has been getting near 20 minutes per game with Zetterberg plus PP time.

Hudler got 12-13 minutes per game and rarely played with Zetterberg.


Did not not read my posts? Hudler has actually played MORE with Zetterberg last year than Filppula has this year, but Filppula has a lot to show for it, Hudler doesn't have much.

From my last post:

% time with Zetterberg (included only > 1%) at even strength:
F: 12.99%
H: 12.54%

Hudler has 871 minutes at ES last year, so that's 109 minutes with Zettterberg.
Filppula so far this year has 667 minutes at ES, that's 88 minutes with Zetterberg.

And of those 109 minutes that Hudler played with Zetterberg, 66:30 of that was playing with Zetterberg AND Hossa, or Zetterberg AND Franzen. you don't think the Flip and Z combo would be EVEN BETTER than it is now with a superstar like Hossa or a star like Franzen? If Hudler was SO AMAZING like you claim, he would have done half as well has Flip has and those lines would have stuck. They never did.


[font="Book Antiqua"]
Hudler, playing top-six minutes at even strength with top-six linemates, would likely produce a higher points-per-minute rate at even strength. If you simply project out what Hudler did (29 points in an average 10:37) to an average 15:00, his even strength production jumps to 43 points. That 43-28 ratio is comparable to what most of the league's top scorers, guys who are scoring better than a PPG, have been producing at.

This is why I find it amusing that people think Filppula is comparable to Hudler offensively. Filppula is getting Hudler's PP minutes and playing most of his ES time in the top six, yet he's on pace to score, if hes lucky, about what Hudler did last season.


First, you can't compare TOI PER GAME with his TOTAL point total. It's apples and oranges. you either compares points per game and TOI per game or points and TOI. I thought you were super good at math or something? But again, you're missing the other side of the argument. Unsurprisingly.

Hulder had 871 ES time last year and scored 29 points = .033 points per minute
Filppula had 1084.5 minutes on ES and scored 36 points = .033 points per minute

Filppula and Hudler produced the same at even strength given their TOI. They had the same linemates.

This is why I find it amusing that people think Filppula is comparable to Hudler offensively. Filppula is getting Hudler's PP minutes and playing most of his ES time in the top six, yet he's on pace to score, if hes lucky, about what Hudler did last season.


I GUARANTEE Filppula will continue to be on pace for as many or more points as Hudler last year. Right now he's on pace for 59. Versus Hudler's 57. He only needs 4/5 more points (depending on how you round) in 8 games to match Hudler's pace last year. 91% think he will.

And sorry you're wrong again, Filppula is NOT getting Hudler's PP minutes. Filppula is getting 2:25 PP TOI per game and Hudler got 3:01 last year. Not to mention Hudler's PP teammates were twice as good as Filppula's this year.


PS: I'm ignoring your worthless rhetoric.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 27 March 2010 - 10:59 AM.

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#49 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 10:59 AM

Flippula is better than Hudler.

Better overall player and doesn't have a s*** attitude and bail on his team.


Stopped reading here.

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#50 Carman

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 11:38 AM

Stopped reading here.


You act like it's common for a player to leave a franchise to play over seas for more money in the prime of his career.

#51 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:43 PM

You act like it's common for a player to leave a franchise to play over seas for more money in the prime of his career.


You act like it is rare for people in business to make sound financial decisions.

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#52 Carman

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:48 PM

You act like it is rare for people in business to make sound financial decisions.


Fair enough. I suppose 99% of all NHLers are making poor financial decisions.

#53 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:56 PM

Fair enough. I suppose 99% of all NHLers are making poor financial decisions.


Considering Hudler would be allowed to be back in Europe, be paid 5 mil untaxed for two years, and still come back to Detroit without going to a competitor, I would say there is nothing wrong with his decision. It makes sense.

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#54 Carman

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:58 PM

Considering Hudler would be allowed to be back in Europe, be paid 5 mil untaxed for two years, and still come back to Detroit without going to a competitor, I would say there is nothing wrong with his decision. It makes sense.


Doesn't mean I can't hold it against him=(

I just think there was another way around the situation than going to the KHL. It's such a privlege to play in the NHL, not to mention the best franchise in the league. Guess I'm just irrational.

#55 Doc Holliday

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 01:00 PM

Doesn't mean I can't hold it against him=(

I just think there was another way around the situation than going to the KHL. It's such a privlege to play in the NHL, not to mention the best franchise in the league. Guess I'm just irrational.


Sure, he could have gone to another NHL team for more money.

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#56 Carman

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 01:16 PM

Sure, he could have gone to another NHL team for more money.


Better for the league.

#57 Paul MacLean's Mustache

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 01:17 PM

Filppula is doubtlessly #2 on the wings in terms of crafty moves out on the ice. But no player in the league can do what Datsyuk does.

But really, these past few games have made me start to wonder. I mean, what if Flip has in him what NONE of us have thought he could possibly do? 80 points? 90 points? I'm not saying he'll get that much but 8 points in 3 games is no fluke.

It should be an interesting year next year. And and interesting playoffs.



I think that's the big difference right there. When Datsyuk isn't a Red Wing anymore will be a very, very sad time.

#58 wingsownnhl43

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 02:21 PM

Ooooooh... King of the Filppula slappies versus the King of the Hudler slappies well Happy Birthday to me... :boxing: :pizza:


Haha. This made me laugh so plus 1 for you.

#59 wingsownnhl43

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 02:27 PM


Hudler, playing top-six minutes at even strength with top-six linemates, would likely produce a higher points-per-minute rate at even strength. If you simply project out what Hudler did (29 points in an average 10:37) to an average 15:00, his even strength production jumps to 43 points. That 43-28 ratio is comparable to what most of the league's top scorers, guys who are scoring better than a PPG, have been producing at.

This is why I find it amusing that people think Filppula is comparable to Hudler offensively. Filppula is getting Hudler's PP minutes and playing most of his ES time in the top six, yet he's on pace to score, if hes lucky, about what Hudler did last season.

Probably saying Flip will peak at 55 is a little low, maybe 60-65 is more accurate. But regardless...Hudler in the NHL given the same kind of chance Filppula is getting WILL be a PPG player with 90-100 point potential, if not more. That's not a maybe.

Now, with my mention of Hudler I didn't intend to drag this off topic, simply to show that Filppula's production compared to Datsyuk's was not "Look it's so close, Flip will be a 90-point player and a Hart and Selke candidate but rather to show that while he is developing well, he's probably NOT going to be a superstar, but rather simply a very good two-way forward and strong second line center (possibly first, if the team doesn't have a higher-end center) relied upon by whatever team he plays for to provide secondary playmaking skill and to buffer the PK unit along with the defensive specialists.

Hudler, OTOH, will either develop into a top-scoring center with average or slightly above average defensive skills, or he will be one of if not THE the league's top scoring wingers, with teams hesitating to pay him what his numbers would suggest simply because of his size.

Both have strong careers ahead of them in different roles, and it's quite possible that both will remain with Detroit their entire careers. But Filppula's offense won't match what Hudler produces.


I have no problem with this argument. I dont think there are many people that would argue that Filppula is a better offensive player than Hudler. That is why Hudler is so much more succesful on the powerplay.

I think FIlppula has a 65-70 point potential, and Hudler is about 70-75, so it isnt drastic. I really think Hudler is a powerplay specialist and a great assett on the top powerplay unit. With that being said, I dont think theres a GM in the league that would take Hulder over Flip in 5on5 play.





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