Cap Question

[IILeiBlazeII 15]

So I saw on TSN that the pens wrapped up Letang for 4 years/$3.5 mil...

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=316025

... and it got me thinking:

How in the name of god are teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago doing it?!? Surely they're topping off with their cap supply, aren't they? So I went on to Hockeybuzz's cap central to look at numbers...

Pitts:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=PIT

Chicago:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=CHI

Detroit:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=DET

... it appears that Pittsburgh and Chicago both have NEGATIVE cap space numbers, while Detroit has stayed in the green. Now if this has been hashed over before, I apologize... but it just doesn't add up to me, ya know? Anyone know and secret cap techniques that would allow Detroit to be almost 5 million over budget like the Blackhawks appear to be? Or even 2 and a quarter like Pitts?

[egroen 384]

So I saw on TSN that the pens wrapped up Letang for 4 years/$3.5 mil...

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=316025

... and it got me thinking:

How in the name of god are teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago doing it?!? Surely they're topping off with their cap supply, aren't they? So I went on to Hockeybuzz's cap central to look at numbers...

Pitts:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=PIT

Chicago:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=CHI

Detroit:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=DET

... it appears that Pittsburgh and Chicago both have NEGATIVE cap space numbers, while Detroit has stayed in the green. Now if this has been hashed over before, I apologize... but it just doesn't add up to me, ya know? Anyone know and secret cap techniques that would allow Detroit to be almost 5 million over budget like the Blackhawks appear to be? Or even 2 and a quarter like Pitts?

Without following the links, I'll take a stab at it -- Incentives

Incentives on entry-level contracts (like Chicago, especially, has) and veteran contracts can actually be rolled over into the next year.

It's a large part of the reason why Chicago will really be hurting next year (though quite honestly, Campbell going on LTI has really helped them in that regard).

[Echolalia 2,961]

Without following the links, I'll take a stab at it -- Incentives

Incentives on entry-level contracts (like Chicago, especially, has) and veteran contracts can actually be rolled over into the next year.

It's a large part of the reason why Chicago will really be hurting next year (though quite honestly, Campbell going on LTI has really helped them in that regard).

So Chicago's cap for next year will be larger than what these links imply, because the excess (in the form of incentives) from this year will be rolled over into next year's cap?

[egroen 384]

So Chicago's cap for next year will be larger than what these links imply, because the excess (in the form of incentives) from this year will be rolled over into next year's cap?

Yep... their cap hit will be larger than what the sites report now because those incentives have not officially been rolled over yet (like $3 to $5m I believe). Though with Campbell out, it will allow some of it to be used this year (though not a lot of it).

[Echolalia 2,961]

Just curious, where do you get your information from? Every time I feel like I understand the cap another nuance pops up that leaves me clueless.

[egroen 384]

Just curious, where do you get your information from? Every time I feel like I understand the cap another nuance pops up that leaves me clueless.

The FAQ here is a great source:

http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm

[TheOctopusKid 19]

I find that the actually physical CBA agreement - despite all the legalese - is still by far the best way to understand the cap structure and it's corresponding rules.

The incentive/extension/bonus do apply to the Chicago Blackhawks but not in the case of the Penguins. According to Hockeybuzz - it looks as if the actual salary of Pittsburgh exceeds the $56,800,000 active cap limit by $2,334,444. In this particular case, the website did not take into account the actual cap hit of Alexei Ponikarvosky, and Jordan Leopold.

From the Collective Bargaining Agreement:

In order for a Club to acquire a one-year SPC after the

commencement of a season (i.e., that is expiring at the

conclusion of the then-current League Year), the Club must

have Payroll Room equal to or in excess of the remaining

Player Salary and Bonuses to be earned by the Player under

the SPC.

In this case, the remaining value of the contract for the year for the two tradeline acquisitions is - $447,000 and $381,000 which would be their effective cap hit for the team - which equates to a total team salary of - $57,040,000.

If you want to see the CBA document, below is the attached link:

http://www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

I hope this helps

[Buppy 1,720]

Capgeek (http://capgeek.com/tracker/index.php) is a much better cap resource.

Bonuses are a little confusing.

They count in full when determining cap hit. Example, Jonathon Toews contract for 3 yrs paid salaries of $850k all three years, and bonuses of @1.75m, 1.95m, and 2.15m. Cap hit is $2.8 million.

But the bonus cushion can allow teams to go over the cap by the amount of potential bonuses. In Toews' case, $2.15m this year. (Also, Kane has $2.85m in potential bonuses this year.) This is so teams aren't penalized in cases where they don't end up paying the full bonus. And as said, if, at the end of the year, bonuses paid put a team over the cap, that overage is counted against that team's cap next season.

Chicago is projected to be about 4.7 million over cap, but that's only if Toews and Kane earn all of their bonuses. I don't think it's even possible, so it will be less than that. I'm not sure how LTIR works with bonuses. Capgeek isn't showing Campbell on LTIR, but I think they can do that retroactively to save them a little extra.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Capgeek (http://capgeek.com/tracker/index.php) is a much better cap resource.

Bonuses are a little confusing.

They count in full when determining cap hit. Example, Jonathon Toews contract for 3 yrs paid salaries of $850k all three years, and bonuses of @1.75m, 1.95m, and 2.15m. Cap hit is $2.8 million.

But the bonus cushion can allow teams to go over the cap by the amount of potential bonuses. In Toews' case, $2.15m this year. (Also, Kane has $2.85m in potential bonuses this year.) This is so teams aren't penalized in cases where they don't end up paying the full bonus. And as said, if, at the end of the year, bonuses paid put a team over the cap, that overage is counted against that team's cap next season.

Chicago is projected to be about 4.7 million over cap, but that's only if Toews and Kane earn all of their bonuses. I don't think it's even possible, so it will be less than that. I'm not sure how LTIR works with bonuses. Capgeek isn't showing Campbell on LTIR, but I think they can do that retroactively to save them a little extra.

I'm fairly certain LTIR only gives a team "real-time" cap relief and only allows them to "relief" in the amount of the salary for the person replacing the LTIR'd player, and thus, I don't believe bonuses can be covered... it does get a little complicated when you factor in bonus' and LTIR's, but that's what I believe it to mean

[mmamolo 287]

Another way to think about it is terms of daily cap hits and allowances. The season is broken down into 193 days. Do if you take a players year long cap hit and divide by 193 you get their daily cap hit. You can use that information to figure out how much space a team would need to have a vailabel to add certain players at the trade deadline. That's why right if you go and look at the Penguins cap figures (which are all presented in annual cap hit numbers), which include Poni and Leopold, something doesn't add up. However, if you were to break everyone's cap hit down into daily cap hits and compute days on the active roster and sum them all up they'd be cap compliant.

Most NHL cap sites don't go that extra mile to show that daily break down because there's no convenient, easy to follow way of doing so. Persaonlly, I think capgeek.com does the best job. If you hunt through their site a bit you can find enough relavent information to work your way through your questions.

[IILeiBlazeII 15]

Thanks for the explanations, guys! Still doesn't make a whole boat-load of sense to me, so I guess I'll have to suspend my understanding in favor of the professionals! :3

[Hockeytown_Ryan 119]

I'm fairly certain LTIR only gives a team "real-time" cap relief and only allows them to "relief" in the amount of the salary for the person replacing the LTIR'd player, and thus, I don't believe bonuses can be covered... it does get a little complicated when you factor in bonus' and LTIR's, but that's what I believe it to mean

I thought it did not give them relief at all... they are just allowed by the league to exceed the cap by the player who is on LTIR

Like when Franzen went down.... The Wings did not really get any Cap room...they were allowed by the league to exceed it by his salary cap hit. Am I wrong?

Do the sites like Cap Geek take into consideration the injuries and what is on the books and what is allowable by LTIR?

[mmamolo 287]

My understanding on the LTIR is the following: While a player is on LTIR you are allowed to replace him with a player who has a salary equal or lower to his for the duration of the initial player's injury. After that injury both players may remain on the roster so long as you are now cap complaint and do not exceed the 23 man roster.

So you can look at it in terms of temporary relief I guess

[Hockeytown_Ryan 119]

Fresh from the CBA page 104.

Once a Player is placed on the Injured Reserve List, the Club may replace

said Player on its NHL Active Roster with another Player, and during such period of his

designation as an Injured Reserve Player he will not count against the Club's Active

Roster limit, provided, however, that the Injured Reserve Player's Player Salary and

Bonuses and his replacement's Player Salary and Bonuses are each included in

calculating a Club's Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, and the Players'

Share, for purposes of Article 50.

I am trying to find the Salary portion now.... I found it once... But can't remember...

Here

All Player Salary and Bonuses paid to Players on an NHL Active Roster,

Injured Reserve or Non Roster that are Unfit to Play –being either injured or suffering

from an illness –shall be counted against a Club's Upper Limit, Actual Club Salary and

Averaged Club Salary, as well as against the Players' Share. Notwithstanding the

preceding sentence, a Club shall be permitted to exceed the Upper Limit (but Leaguewide

Player Compensation shall never be permitted to exceed the Players' Share) by

virtue of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception set forth in subsection (d)

below.

Sub Section D

Bona-Fide Long-TermInjury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit. In

the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and

unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes,

in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit

to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular

Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an

additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and

Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an

amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the

duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination

of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-

Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and

jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician's determination

regarding the Player's fitness to play.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Hockeytown_Ryan

[eva unit zero 271]

What you are seeing is not that Pittsburgh or Chicago has negative cap space yet is working cap magic.

What you are seeing is their contract setup for NEXT YEAR and the fact that the players they currently have signed who are slotted for the NHL roster exceed the salary cap.

If you look at the links on the right hand of the front page, you will see the cap calculator, which allows you to mess with next year's numbers, as well as the salary cap chart, daily tracker, and known clauses.

If you choose salary cap chart it will show you payroll, bonuses, cap space, players signed, and average cap hit per opening (for a 23-player roster) for the 2010-11 season.

If you choose daily tracker, you will see information for this season. For example, the Wings have virtually no cap space and can make no moves that increase the team's salary. Toronto actually has negative cap space, but as it's bonuses it will carry over to next season. Vancouver also has negative cap space, but is ok due to cap relief.

[Buppy 1,720]

I thought it did not give them relief at all... they are just allowed by the league to exceed the cap by the player who is on LTIR

Like when Franzen went down.... The Wings did not really get any Cap room...they were allowed by the league to exceed it by his salary cap hit. Am I wrong?

Do the sites like Cap Geek take into consideration the injuries and what is on the books and what is allowable by LTIR?

That is, in essence, what 'cap relief' means. It's a term to differentiate it from 'cap space'.

And Cap Geek does factor LTIR, Bonuses, and pretty much everything else. It may not be 100% accurate, but it's damn close. HockeyBuzz does not factor anything really. They don't even pro-rate for trades. (Or at least, not pro-rating for Poni and Leopold in Pitt.)

Edited March 30, 2010 by Buppy