89 replies to this topic

[GMRwings1983]

I wouldn't mind if they moved to Winnipeg.

Attendance or not, Phoenix is not as good a place for hockey as Winnipeg. Also, they could go back to being the Jets instead of the Coyotes, which has never looked as good jersey or logo wise.

[schulzte]

You can't judge Phoenix on this year's attendance. The fans didn't know they would have a team until a couple weeks before the season started. I remember when the Winnipeg Jets moved to Phoenix. Winnipeg was getting less attendance than Phoenix is now. That coupled with the weak Canadian dollar and that team was doomed. The Canadian media is utilizing revisionist history when they say Winnipeg should have never moved.

The attendance at Coyotes games when the team was downtown instead of the suburbs was much stronger as well, despite the arena improvement. The Phoenix metro area is SIX TIMES larger than Winnipeg, and anyone that can do math can figure out that a professional team has a better chance long term in a city of 4,300,000 than a city of 700,000, I don't care how hockey crazed Winnipeg suddenly is. I would generalize by saying that hockey has not been a failure in the South, as Dallas, San Jose, Los Angeles, and Anaheim have been strong franchises. Hockey in the Southeast HAS generally been a failure, they are so football crazed and closed minded. And it isn't just hockey, basketball teams in Charlotte, Memphis and Atlanta don't draw well either. Atlanta, Nashville and Carolina should all move to Seattle, Milwaukee, and Quebec City respectively. And the Islanders need to go too. I know its a big market, but New York does not need three teams and the Islanders haven't been relevant in twenty years. Defending Gary Bettman isn't a popular opinion usually, but the Penguins and Sabres have been in dire straights in the past ten years, and look where they are now. Bettman didn't want them moving, and the league is better for it. Perhaps Phoenix is the next turn around story.

New Olympia Stadium

[vangvace]

I'm not too sure about that. Look at the Devils. They still can't sellout playoff games.

That also has a bit to do with location and style of play imo.

[ToMaToToWnWinGsFaN_24]

You can't judge Phoenix on this year's attendance. The fans didn't know they would have a team until a couple weeks before the season started. I remember when the Winnipeg Jets moved to Phoenix. Winnipeg was getting less attendance than Phoenix is now. That coupled with the weak Canadian dollar and that team was doomed. The Canadian media is utilizing revisionist history when they say Winnipeg should have never moved.

The attendance at Coyotes games when the team was downtown instead of the suburbs was much stronger as well, despite the arena improvement. The Phoenix metro area is SIX TIMES larger than Winnipeg, and anyone that can do math can figure out that a professional team has a better chance long term in a city of 4,300,000 than a city of 700,000, I don't care how hockey crazed Winnipeg suddenly is. I would generalize by saying that hockey has not been a failure in the South, as Dallas, San Jose, Los Angeles, and Anaheim have been strong franchises. Hockey in the Southeast HAS generally been a failure, they are so football crazed and closed minded. And it isn't just hockey, basketball teams in Charlotte, Memphis and Atlanta don't draw well either. Atlanta, Nashville and Carolina should all move to Seattle, Milwaukee, and Quebec City respectively. And the Islanders need to go too. I know its a big market, but New York does not need three teams and the Islanders haven't been relevant in twenty years. Defending Gary Bettman isn't a popular opinion usually, but the Penguins and Sabres have been in dire straights in the past ten years, and look where they are now. Bettman didn't want them moving, and the league is better for it. Perhaps Phoenix is the next turn around story.

New Olympia Stadium

very well said
couldnt agree more

[Kabrok]

The Phoenix metro area is SIX TIMES larger than Winnipeg, and anyone that can do math can figure out that a professional team has a better chance long term in a city of 4,300,000 than a city of 700,000, I don't care how hockey crazed Winnipeg suddenly is.

So? The Phoenix metro area is larger than most existing Canadian markets and a number of American ones, does that mean that the Flames or the Sabres should be getting the axe? If it was just about raw population why not put teams in Europe? London has about seven million people to Phoenix's four, does that mean that London is a more viable market? After all, in your mind whether or not a given population is hockey-crazed or not is completely irrelevant.

Plus, a potential team in Winnipeg would almost certainly receive ownership support at least in part from David Thomson, the richest man in Canada. He owns the media group responsible for TSN *and* the arena a potential NHL team in Winnipeg would play - he would directly make money that would go towards the NHL not only from every Winnipeg game but also from every TSN broadcast and every event at the MTS Centre NHL-related or not. For all those people in Phoenix, they sure aren't climbing over themselves offering to take ownership of it there, let alone anybody with anything even close to the financial clout of someone like Thomson.

Edited by Kabrok, 31 March 2010 - 10:08 PM.

[Shoreline]

There were obviously other factors to the team leaving Winnipeg than whether or not it was a hockey city. They had their own financial troubles, but none more prominent than the fact that they didn't have as much people in the Winnipeg area therefore did not rake in enough cash to support star players who eventually left, nor support the team in competition with much larger areas in the US who were bringing in enough cash to support the inflated league-wide player salaries and thus costs to operate a team. With the salary cap and league player maximums this should theoretically be different now, but the cap is steadily rising again so perhaps not. If Winnipeg could manage, I'd surely have them there over Phoenix any day. There is no doubt Phoenix isn't a hockey city, but people aren't factoring in what really matters regarding whether or not the team could do well there and not go kaput. Why do you think Balsillie chose near Toronto to relocate them? They could bring enough cash in to support the team because their costs to operate the team could be returned easily and with a lot of additional profit. Substantially different than Winnipeg.

[wingsownnhl43]

See: '98 Wings road to the cup

I remember their arena was packed during that series and the fans were crazy. Of course, those were the days Tkachuk and Roenick were a force together and Khabibulin made a name for himself.


Anybody remember in that series when Fedorov shot the puck (to dump it in) and it hit perfectly off the back boards to Khabibulin's skate and in the net? It was insanely good luck.

That was Sean Casey, im 95% sure.

[Drake_Marcus]

Globe On Hockey-- NHL Attendance Figures

[schulzte]

So? The Phoenix metro area is larger than most existing Canadian markets and a number of American ones, does that mean that the Flames or the Sabres should be getting the axe? If it was just about raw population why not put teams in Europe? London has about seven million people to Phoenix's four, does that mean that London is a more viable market? After all, in your mind whether or not a given population is hockey-crazed or not is completely irrelevant.

Plus, a potential team in Winnipeg would almost certainly receive ownership support at least in part from David Thomson, the richest man in Canada. He owns the media group responsible for TSN *and* the arena a potential NHL team in Winnipeg would play - he would directly make money that would go towards the NHL not only from every Winnipeg game but also from every TSN broadcast and every event at the MTS Centre NHL-related or not. For all those people in Phoenix, they sure aren't climbing over themselves offering to take ownership of it there, let alone anybody with anything even close to the financial clout of someone like Thomson.

Why are people so insistent on a team in Winnipeg? Quebec City was far more supportive of the Nordiques than Winnipeg was of the Jets. The Nordiques were drawing very well when they moved to Colorado. The other problem with Winnipeg is that it is surrounded by wheat fields! There are no other feeder cities to draw from. There is a much larger population base in Quebec, and they have a track record of supporting an NHL team better than Winnipeg. Even Winnipeg didn't see itself with the NHL in its future, otherwise they would have built the MTS Centre 6 rows taller. And if we want to get silly about this and "hockey crazed" is your criteria, lets put six new expansion teams in Canada in the prarie provinces. How about Red Deer, Moose Jaw, Swift Current, Lethbridge, Brandon, and how about a big market team like Saskatoon?

[GMRwings1983]

Wait, why can't they just merge with the Penguins?

You know, kind of like the NorthStars merging with the Cleveland Barons once?

[Lidstromboli]

give Warroad, MN a team too. they have some great mustard fields there. and fish flies!

[Drake_Marcus]

Note in that link I posted above that the Coyotes are up almost 2,000 fans since their early season numbers. Anyone think that might be because fans aren't so scared that the team isn't long for the city? The NHL's tried to make it crystal clear to their fanbase that they're committed to keeping the team in Phoenix.

It also helps that the Coyotes don't blow right now.

And for all the people who think the team should be selling out when they blow chunks-- go look at the past struggles of Ottawa, Chicago(!) and Pittsburgh. Sports franchises who can throw consistently garbage teams out there and consistently get attendance are few and far between.

[Shoreline]

Globe On Hockey-- NHL Attendance Figures

In that 11,000 is an inflated bunch due to a lot of fans picking the "Community Chest" card and getting to see either a free game or one in the single digits of dollars. I mean, they can't even give away tickets there and sell out. Even Predators fans managed to muster up a 14,000 and 15,000+ fan attendance rate, which would not allow the team to break their lease in Nashville. The Coyotes simply aren't savable in terms of profit as a hockey franchise in Phoenix, and it was known that's not a hockey market. I'm sure pressure on Doucheman will rise following this season to relocate them somewhere else.

[Drake_Marcus]

In that 11,000 is an inflated bunch due to a lot of fans picking the "Community Chest" card and getting to see either a free game or one in the single digits of dollars. I mean, they can't even give away tickets there and sell out. Even Predators fans managed to muster up a 14,000 and 15,000+ fan attendance rate, which would not allow the team to break their lease in Nashville. The Coyotes simply aren't savable in terms of profit as a hockey franchise in Phoenix, and it was known that's not a hockey market. I'm sure pressure on Doucheman will rise following this season to relocate them somewhere else.

You should know that logic will never defeat the will of the Doucheman!

[Doc Holliday]

What was the attendance for Wings games in the 70s and early 80s?

[schulzte]

What was the attendance for Wings games in the 70s and early 80s?

Another very good point. He who casts the first stone!

[wmubronco420]

What was the attendance for Wings games in the 70s and early 80s?

apples and oranges

one team is an original six team, set in a hockey climate with a long history of success

the other has never been out of the first round and is playing hockey in the desert

[Doc Holliday]

apples and oranges

one team is an original six team, set in a hockey climate with a long history of success

the other has never been out of the first round and is playing hockey in the desert

How does that change it?

Every American Market is going to have trouble filling seats if the team sucks. Notice how the attendance numbers are going UP now that the Yotes are doing well?

[uk_redwing]

Globe On Hockey-- NHL Attendance Figures

Dubious figures. Says we have a 19000 attendance on average at home. Wouldnt have thought it was anywhere near that.

[Drake_Marcus]

Dubious figures. Says we have a 19000 attendance on average at home. Wouldnt have thought it was anywhere near that.

That's the difference between average paid attendance and what you can see from home. Lots of empty seats actually have owners.

But yeah, no doubt some numbers are iffy.