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Lilja & Stuart


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#21 Rick Zombos Ghost

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 06:22 PM

Rafalski is having a better season than Boyle? :unsure:

he has a ton of points im not denying that. but to have that many points and to be a +4 says something, and its not like the Sharks arent a bit loaded up front.

#22 vOrophin

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 06:34 PM

Rafalski has 39 points and is +22

Chara has 40 points and is a +15.
Brian Campbell has 38 points and is a +18
Scott Niedermayer has 46 points but is a -11
Dan Boyle has 56 points and is a +4
Phaneauf has 29 points and is 0
Ed Jovanovski has 34 points and is a -12
Wade Redden has 14 points and is a plus 6
Kimmo Timonen has 36 points and is a -3
Chris Pronger has 54 points and is a +23
ALL OF THESE PLAYERS make more than Rafalski and the only one having a better season is Pronger. STOP THE HATE!



The majority of Rafalski's minutes are with Lidstrom. I'm not saying that's the only reason, but it helps him look much better. Rafalski is a solid D man no matter what anyone says on LGW, he makes more errors than Lids and really isn't as good in any way, but he is still good. Maybe not 6 mil good, but on average I'd say he is our 2nd best D man (Kronwall is better on his good days, worse on his not as good days).

#23 GMRwings1983

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:06 PM

Rafalski has 39 points and is +22

Chara has 40 points and is a +15.
Brian Campbell has 38 points and is a +18
Scott Niedermayer has 46 points but is a -11
Dan Boyle has 56 points and is a +4
Phaneauf has 29 points and is 0
Ed Jovanovski has 34 points and is a -12
Wade Redden has 14 points and is a plus 6
Kimmo Timonen has 36 points and is a -3
Chris Pronger has 54 points and is a +23
ALL OF THESE PLAYERS make more than Rafalski and the only one having a better season is Pronger. STOP THE HATE!


Nobody is saying Rafalski is no good and can't score.

I'm just saying that no one wants their 35+ year old D-man turning pucks over and being caught out of position like a rookie. The one thing that isn't supposed to get worse with age is hockey smarts. Rafalski still makes too many bad mistakes defensively, when he should have aged out of that with experience.

I don't think it's fair to blame Stuart and Lilja for making a few casual mistakes, but not bringing Rafalski's name up.
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#24 Doc Holliday

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:11 PM

Rafalski has 39 points and is +22

Chara has 40 points and is a +15.
Brian Campbell has 38 points and is a +18
Scott Niedermayer has 46 points but is a -11
Dan Boyle has 56 points and is a +4
Phaneauf has 29 points and is 0
Ed Jovanovski has 34 points and is a -12
Wade Redden has 14 points and is a plus 6
Kimmo Timonen has 36 points and is a -3
Chris Pronger has 54 points and is a +23
ALL OF THESE PLAYERS make more than Rafalski and the only one having a better season is Pronger. STOP THE HATE!


You forgot one thing:

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Faralski has played with the best player this decade since he got here. He has great offensive skills but his defensive deficiencies are covered by his defensive partner. If he was with Kronwall or Stuart he would look even worse.

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#25 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:33 PM

This. And haven't you noticed that since Lilja's return the defense has gotten better overall? His presence on the PK was a huge boost and has continued to help a ton. It's also positively affected the growth of Ericsson, so I'm all for the Pain Train, even with his few brain farts.

Agreed.

Now I just wish the two of them would start to use their size and play with an edge.

With E at 6'4" and 206 lbs, Lillypads at 6'3" 228, they should be knocking guys around out there. Honestly if Ericsson took a penalty for crosschecking someone hard in front of the net, I'd probably cheer.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 02 April 2010 - 07:34 PM.


#26 GMRwings1983

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:45 PM

Agreed.

Now I just wish the two of them would start to use their size and play with an edge.

With E at 6'4" and 206 lbs, Lillypads at 6'3" 228, they should be knocking guys around out there. Honestly if Ericsson took a penalty for crosschecking someone hard in front of the net, I'd probably cheer.


Ericsson's weight is truly embarrassing. No reason for him not to weight at least 220.
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#27 LeftWinger

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:20 PM

And what is the Wings record with Lilja in the lineup? :ninja:

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#28 zettie85

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:44 PM

Rafalski has 39 points and is +22

Chara has 40 points and is a +15.
Brian Campbell has 38 points and is a +18
Scott Niedermayer has 46 points but is a -11
Dan Boyle has 56 points and is a +4
Phaneauf has 29 points and is 0
Ed Jovanovski has 34 points and is a -12
Wade Redden has 14 points and is a plus 6
Kimmo Timonen has 36 points and is a -3
Chris Pronger has 54 points and is a +23
ALL OF THESE PLAYERS make more than Rafalski and the only one having a better season is Pronger. STOP THE HATE!



I don't give a s*** about his offencive production. If you aren't solid defensively I don't want you on my team. I could care less about those other guys because they don't play for the Wings. Offence should be a bonus for a DEFENCEman.

Edited by zettie85, 02 April 2010 - 08:45 PM.

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#29 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:39 PM

They've both been playing all right.

#30 Rick Zombos Ghost

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:19 PM

I don't give a s*** about his offencive production. If you aren't solid defensively I don't want you on my team. I could care less about those other guys because they don't play for the Wings. Offence should be a bonus for a DEFENCEman.

Well you cant argue with his +- then. it is not ALL Lidstrom, definitely some. I think they just happen to make a perfect combo.
Those 2 play against the best night in and night out and both have great numbers. On a strict numbers stand point he's earning his contract. Although if the cap stays the same i think the number of 6 million dollar players is going to drop.

#31 eva unit zero

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:37 PM

Rafalski is a good defenseman. He's not what he used to be, but he's still good.

Top 20 in the league definitely. He's no Lidstrom or Ohlund defensively...but that's a hard argument for anyone.

If you took all 30 GMs and had them completely redraft their teams from current rosters, Rafalski would almost certainly be somebody's #1 defenseman. He might not be picked until the 3rd or 4th round, but that's because most GMs would likely want to get a solid goalie and top forward in place, possibly even a top forward pairing, before they look to the blueline.

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#32 Echolalia

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:42 PM

You forgot one thing:

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Faralski has played with the best player this decade since he got here. He has great offensive skills but his defensive deficiencies are covered by his defensive partner. If he was with Kronwall or Stuart he would look even worse.


I think that works both ways though. Put anyone next to Lidstrom and they aren't going to look so hot in comparison. I'm not denying that he turns the puck over and is prone to mistakes, but he's still a top-2 defensman on most teams in the league.

#33 zettie85

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 05:13 AM

Rafalski is a good defenseman. He's not what he used to be, but he's still good.

Top 20 in the league definitely. He's no Lidstrom or Ohlund defensively...but that's a hard argument for anyone.

If you took all 30 GMs and had them completely redraft their teams from current rosters, Rafalski would almost certainly be somebody's #1 defenseman. He might not be picked until the 3rd or 4th round, but that's because most GMs would likely want to get a solid goalie and top forward in place, possibly even a top forward pairing, before they look to the blueline.



Rafalski is over paid. Nobody is redrafting their teams and he is not getting any younger. Even if they were to redraft I think Offensive D-men(minus that *** Green) would not be drafted high. Every GM you hear from, every coach, basically any hockey person will tell you defense is the key. That is why McCabe was booed out of Toronto and Jovonoski was booed out of Vancouver.

Rafalski has won cups because of the team he was on not because of his defense. His faults stand out to me more because I look for defensive deficiencies when I watch hockey. Every player shows them. Datsyuk is no exception, although it is very rare. Rafalskis hockey sense is average. He is the same player as Lebda minus the offensive ability of Rafalski. They are both dumb hockey players that shows flashes of brightness now and then. 28 more points and the same defensive ability does not warrant a $5.35 million difference in salary between the 2 players.
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#34 Pucks

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 10:14 AM

Rafalski is over paid. Nobody is redrafting their teams and he is not getting any younger. Even if they were to redraft I think Offensive D-men(minus that *** Green) would not be drafted high. Every GM you hear from, every coach, basically any hockey person will tell you defense is the key. That is why McCabe was booed out of Toronto and Jovonoski was booed out of Vancouver.

Rafalski has won cups because of the team he was on not because of his defense. His faults stand out to me more because I look for defensive deficiencies when I watch hockey. Every player shows them. Datsyuk is no exception, although it is very rare. Rafalskis hockey sense is average. He is the same player as Lebda minus the offensive ability of Rafalski. They are both dumb hockey players that shows flashes of brightness now and then. 28 more points and the same defensive ability does not warrant a $5.35 million difference in salary between the 2 players.


Excellent post. If there was anyone on the team I could trade, it would be this guy. The return would be very good as well. Teams are always looking for a PP QB, Rafalski best quality.


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#35 cjm502

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 10:33 AM

I do not get where you guys get the impression Raffy is bad in his own zone. He isnt real big, and isnt the best at physically moving guys from our net, but I have always though he was just fine.
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#36 zettie85

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 10:44 AM

I do not get where you guys get the impression Raffy is bad in his own zone. He isnt real big, and isnt the best at physically moving guys from our net, but I have always though he was just fine.



He used to be decent. Not 6 mil worth but better then this. He lost a step and makes bad plays with the puck. He should be the next celeb on dancing with the stars, at least when he gets danced around it will be a good thing. He gets all his minutes with arguably one of the greatest defensemen to play the game and spends a lot of time on the ice with the likes of Z, Dats, Mule and Holmstrom. You pair Raffi with Ericcson and you will see why he is not a top d-man in this league other than getting points.

Defensive ability rankings.

Lidstrom
Stuart
Kronwall
Lilja
Ericsson
Rafalski

Hockey sense rankings.

Lidstrom
Kronwall
Lilja
Stuart
Rafalski
Ericsson
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#37 Doc Holliday

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 11:01 AM

Rafalski is a good defenseman. He's not what he used to be, but he's still good.

Top 20 in the league definitely. He's no Lidstrom or Ohlund defensively...but that's a hard argument for anyone.

If you took all 30 GMs and had them completely redraft their teams from current rosters, Rafalski would almost certainly be somebody's #1 defenseman. He might not be picked until the 3rd or 4th round, but that's because most GMs would likely want to get a solid goalie and top forward in place, possibly even a top forward pairing, before they look to the blueline.


Rafalski is 36. Why would any GM want to re-draft a 36 year old defenseman when there are plenty of younger ones out there to pick from?

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#38 Off the Post

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 11:11 AM

I know I can't expect these guys to play like Lidstrom, but seriously even in my beer league we've figured out that it's dumb to put the puck in front of your own goal.

These two just keep doing it consistently. When Lilja first came back he looked pretty good but now he's back to his old ways.

Even Helm had a nasty giveaway last night but I will forgive him because he rarely does that.


I just find it funny that even when were winning idiots still complain about something LOL!

#39 zettie85

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 11:18 AM

I just find it funny that even when were winning idiots still complain about something LOL!


This doesn't even make sense. Turn overs don't matter because we are winning??? What happens when those meaningless turnovers end up in the back of our net and we aren't getting the W's anymore. I would rather it be addressed now before the playoffs and not in overtime of game 7 when it's too late.
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#40 cjm502

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 11:53 AM

He used to be decent. Not 6 mil worth but better then this. He lost a step and makes bad plays with the puck. He should be the next celeb on dancing with the stars, at least when he gets danced around it will be a good thing. He gets all his minutes with arguably one of the greatest defensemen to play the game and spends a lot of time on the ice with the likes of Z, Dats, Mule and Holmstrom. You pair Raffi with Ericcson and you will see why he is not a top d-man in this league other than getting points.

Defensive ability rankings.

Lidstrom
Stuart
Kronwall
Lilja
Ericsson
Rafalski

Hockey sense rankings.

Lidstrom
Kronwall
Lilja
Stuart
Rafalski
Ericsson

You know what he did in the Olympics. You know what he did with the Devils. He has always been very good for us in the playoffs too. I will agree that he is overpaid, but come on.
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