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Lilja & Stuart


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#41 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:02 PM

Rafalski is over paid. Nobody is redrafting their teams and he is not getting any younger. Even if they were to redraft I think Offensive D-men(minus that *** Green) would not be drafted high. Every GM you hear from, every coach, basically any hockey person will tell you defense is the key. That is why McCabe was booed out of Toronto and Jovonoski was booed out of Vancouver.

Rafalski has won cups because of the team he was on not because of his defense. His faults stand out to me more because I look for defensive deficiencies when I watch hockey. Every player shows them. Datsyuk is no exception, although it is very rare. Rafalskis hockey sense is average. He is the same player as Lebda minus the offensive ability of Rafalski. They are both dumb hockey players that shows flashes of brightness now and then. 28 more points and the same defensive ability does not warrant a $5.35 million difference in salary between the 2 players.

No he isn't. If the Wings were signing him now, maybe you could say they overpaid. But it's not like you can adjust contracts based on performance throughout the season, or adjust it for what the current going market rate is for his level of defenseman.

At the time his contract was signed, Rafalski was paid what his market value was, probably a bit below actually. And Holland was scrambling to fill Schneider's position at the time.

I can completely understand getting frustrated when Rafalski makes a bad play, but his contract was what it took at that time to get him signed and to have a number 2 D-man. And it was worth the money.

Comparing him to Lebda though. Wow. Raf is on the ice 9 more minutes per game than Lebda (at least when Lebda isn't a healthy scratch). Put Lebda out there for 24 minutes a night, even next to Nick Lidstrom, and you'll see how far apart those two players actually are.

EDIT: And don't forget that Lids and Raf are up against the other team's best players every night, whereas Lebda's pairing you try and keep away from the top lines.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 03 April 2010 - 12:06 PM.


#42 zettie85

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:04 PM

You know what he did in the Olympics. You know what he did with the Devils. He has always been very good for us in the playoffs too. I will agree that he is overpaid, but come on.



Like I said he shows flashes of good play now and then(Olympics). Was decent with the Devils but there is no cup in NJ without Stevens or Brodeur. They could have won without Raffi. He has looked good for us in the playoffs but mainly offensively. He used to have speed. Now his age is caught up to him and he hasn't made up for it by playing smarter hockey.
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#43 zettie85

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:09 PM

No he isn't. If the Wings were signing him now, maybe you could say they overpaid. But it's not like you can adjust contracts based on performance throughout the season, or adjust it for what the current going market rate is for his level of defenseman.

At the time his contract was signed, Rafalski was paid what his market value was, probably a bit below actually. And Holland was scrambling to fill Schneider's position at the time.

I can completely understand getting frustrated when Rafalski makes a bad play, but his contract was what it took at that time to get him signed and to have a number 2 D-man. And it was worth the money.

Comparing him to Lebda though. Wow. Raf is on the ice 9 more minutes per game than Lebda (at least when Lebda isn't a healthy scratch). Put Lebda out there for 24 minutes a night, even next to Nick Lidstrom, and you'll see how far apart those two players actually are.



If you are going by offensive stats Raffi plays 9 more minutes a game and more games period. More time on the PP by far and only a 28 point difference. There is no defensive upside to Rafalski. That alone in my opinion doesn't warrant you more then $3.5. I'm sorry just my feelings.
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#44 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:21 PM

If you are going by offensive stats Raffi plays 9 more minutes a game and more games period. More time on the PP by far and only a 28 point difference. There is no defensive upside to Rafalski. That alone in my opinion doesn't warrant you more then $3.5. I'm sorry just my feelings.

Im not talking about offensive stats. I was referring to how he looks out there on the ice relative to Lebda. Raf plays more minutes and faces top talent every night. There's no way Lebda is even close to him defensively. You're wrong when you say there is no defensive upside to Rafalski. If that was the case, Babcock would have someone else paired with Lidstrom because they take on the top lines every night. Yes Lidstrom will make his partner look better, but he's no superhero. Put Lebda on the top pairing, and it would be a huge detriment to that pair.

It's your right to feel that way, I'm just saying it's a sort of reasoning that doesn't have much to do with the reality of how these contracts are made. Like Player A makes 5 times as much as player B, so he better be 5 times as good. That's not how it works.

Raf can be a frustrating defenseman for sure. I want to see more of that player I saw in the Olympics. But his contract was what it took to get him here at the time and fill a huge hole in the lineup. And overall it was worth it so far.

#45 REDWINGSFTW

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:25 PM

This is what i was saying in the bertuzzi thread but you guys were saying liljas solid, he turns the puck over very sloppy. He cost us in Ananeheim, and many other crucial situations and i see it every year, him either being to slow, or turning the puck over.

Im not talking about offensive stats. I was referring to how he looks out there on the ice relative to Lebda. Raf plays more minutes and faces top talent every night. There's no way Lebda is even close to him defensively. You're wrong when you say there is no defensive upside to Rafalski. If that was the case, Babcock would have someone else paired with Lidstrom because they take on the top lines every night. Yes Lidstrom will make his partner look better, but he's no superhero. Put Lebda on the top pairing, and it would be a huge detriment to that pair.

It's your right to feel that way, I'm just saying it's a sort of reasoning that doesn't have much to do with the reality of how these contracts are made. Like Player A makes 5 times as much as player B, so he better be 5 times as good. That's not how it works.

Raf can be a frustrating defenseman for sure. I want to see more of that player I saw in the Olympics. But his contract was what it took to get him here at the time and fill a huge hole in the lineup. And overall it was worth it so far.

Raf did nothing special defensively at the Olympics, he scored huge goals, thats it.

#46 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:28 PM

This is what i was saying in the bertuzzi thread but you guys were saying liljas solid, he turns the puck over very sloppy. He cost us in Ananeheim, and many other crucial situations and i see it every year, him either being to slow, or turning the puck over.

I would say Lilja is solid for a bottom pairing guy.

It's a different standard than I'd hold a top four defenseman against. He just needs to keep it simple, and make the safe play, and he usually does that.

This is what i was saying in the bertuzzi thread but you guys were saying liljas solid, he turns the puck over very sloppy. He cost us in Ananeheim, and many other crucial situations and i see it every year, him either being to slow, or turning the puck over.


Raf did nothing special defensively at the Olympics, he scored huge goals, thats it.

that's it?

for starters, scoring huge goals seems like a pretty big deal to me. But beyond that he was also very good defensively. Yes he had some of those Raf brain farts, but overall he looked better than I'd seen him play all season. And he was a leader on that very young Olympic team, stepping up in a big way. That's all pretty special.

#47 REDWINGSFTW

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:35 PM

I would say Lilja is solid for a bottom pairing guy.

It's a different standard than I'd hold a top four defenseman against. He just needs to keep it simple, and make the safe play, and he usually does that.


that's it?

for starters, scoring huge goals seems like a pretty big deal to me. But beyond that he was also very good defensively. Yes he had some of those Raf brain farts, but overall he looked better than I'd seen him play all season. And he was a leader on that very young Olympic team, stepping up in a big way. That's all pretty special.

He was nothing special defenseivly he played the same way he always played, his goals were special, but his defense the same. Im talking defense, overall he was the leader of that team, and he turned it over to iglina, who passed it to crosby for the win.

#48 zettie85

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:43 PM

Im not talking about offensive stats. I was referring to how he looks out there on the ice relative to Lebda. Raf plays more minutes and faces top talent every night. There's no way Lebda is even close to him defensively. You're wrong when you say there is no defensive upside to Rafalski. If that was the case, Babcock would have someone else paired with Lidstrom because they take on the top lines every night. Yes Lidstrom will make his partner look better, but he's no superhero. Put Lebda on the top pairing, and it would be a huge detriment to that pair.

It's your right to feel that way, I'm just saying it's a sort of reasoning that doesn't have much to do with the reality of how these contracts are made. Like Player A makes 5 times as much as player B, so he better be 5 times as good. That's not how it works.

Raf can be a frustrating defenseman for sure. I want to see more of that player I saw in the Olympics. But his contract was what it took to get him here at the time and fill a huge hole in the lineup. And overall it was worth it so far.



I definitely see what you mean but really looking back we never needed to sign him. He has been OK but not worth 6 million. I can compare him with Lebda because Lebda has talent. He really does as much as ppl bash him. He is not a smart hockey player though and that is his downfall. If he was a smarter player he would probably be a permanent fixture on the roster.

Just because Schneider was on his was way out did not mean we needed a guy like Rafalski. We would have been fine with another Stuart type player. I just think he is a waste of money. On this team he shouldn't be making 6. If that's what the market had him at then they should have passed. Let Atlanta pay him 6 mil a year.
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#49 zettie85

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:49 PM

I would say Lilja is solid for a bottom pairing guy.

It's a different standard than I'd hold a top four defenseman against. He just needs to keep it simple, and make the safe play, and he usually does that.


Exactly. Lilja gets high marks for not trying to play above his abilities. Rafalski doesn't go in the corners and basically hands the puck over to the other team. It was worse earlier on in the season when we would be trapped in our end for 2 minutes at a time. Being smnart with the puck and making smart plays in the defensive zone goes a long way for a puck possession team. Something that isn't Rafalskis strong point.
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