newfy 695 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard. I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CopenhagenWing 38 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I was reading some of the comments on TSN and saw this gem: Great Picks! No Overrated players this year! I think anyone of the finalist would be a great choice. For everybody that thinks Green is such a defensive liability, how does +35 sound! It doesn't matter what team you play for in the NHL if you put up those kind plus/minus numbers you are doing something right. Finally!!! Some good young defenseman that can put up points, the league has been stagnate for that past ten years since the likes of leetch, bourque and coffey were in their prime. Defenseman have been winning the Norris with 40 points (ie Lidstrom, great defenseman but if he was in the league with the three above mentioned names he might have won 'one' Norris!) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
55fan 5,133 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard. I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck. To whom are you replying? I only saw one post that thought that Lids was maybe a third-place choice. The rest of us just think he's a great d-man whose play may not be what it was when he was young, but is still a fantastic player who we would take over pretty much anyone in a heartbeat. That he is not a Norris contender is not a statement that he is no good, nor are we upset about this. As you say, it's a changing of the guard. Nick still brings leadership, hockey smarts, grace under fire, and a very high level of play. No homer glasses here. 1 seeinred reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 To whom are you replying? I only saw one post that thought that Lids was maybe a third-place choice. The rest of us just think he's a great d-man whose play may not be what it was when he was young, but is still a fantastic player who we would take over pretty much anyone in a heartbeat. That he is not a Norris contender is not a statement that he is no good, nor are we upset about this. As you say, it's a changing of the guard. Nick still brings leadership, hockey smarts, grace under fire, and a very high level of play. No homer glasses here. The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blikst 1 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard. I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck. Analogy fail. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Trilobite Report post Posted April 23, 2010 The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore. Lidstrom is not the best in the game anymore. If you think this then you=homer, pure and simple. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
55fan 5,133 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore. Ah, gotcha. I was just looking at the thread. In many ways, he is still the best, but in others age has taken its toll. He may not be the best overall, but he is still the best in a lot of areas. No surprise that he wasn't nominated, but not ready to be put out to pasture yet either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 If he decides to come back I'm sure he can win another won if he wants to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeinred 1,488 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore. I've said this before, but for me, there's still not a defenseman in this league I'd take over Nick in the last minute of a game whether it's a tie game or a 1 goal game either way. His play is still nothing short of spectacular. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedLightGoesOn 81 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 LOL Mike Green.... HAHAHAHAHAHA. Whew. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I've said this before, but for me, there's still not a defenseman in this league I'd take over Nick in the last minute of a game whether it's a tie game or a 1 goal game either way. His play is still nothing short of spectacular. Yeah but over the course of a full regular season I would probably rather have Keith or Doughty. Well doughty for sure. The problem is is that the game isn't only one minute, its an 82 game grind and age has taken its toll on Nick. Analogy fail. Thanks for the input on the thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BamaWing 37 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I'm a HUGE fan of Doughty but you can't argue if either Doughty or Keith win. As for Green, I'll hold my comments to myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjlegend 155 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Out of these three, Keith should prolly win. Best overall game, now in his prime, etc.. Puck Daddy favors Doughty: http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Norris-Trophy-Finalists-Green-vs-Doughty-vs-K;_ylt=AikQ2RY1WTQc0VHh9VlA..3CfgM6?urn=nhl,236318 ... There are a couple of numbers that I couldn't get past for Mike Green. First, he was on the ice for more goals-against at even strength (50) than Doughty (45) in fewer games, and Doughty had a better goals-against-per-60-minutes of even-strength hockey (1.95) than Green (2.36) and Keith (2.77).Keith played against the toughest opponents 5-on-5, with a Quality of Competition rating of 0.081. (Head here for an explanation for how it's computed.) Doughty's (0.027) was higher than Green's (0.005). All stats are via Behind the Net. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McAwesome 754 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I figured Keith would be a finalist, pleasantly surprised to see Doughty in the running, disappointed that Green is being considered. I feel strongly that Keith will win this year, but Doughty will likely win multiple times before his career is over, he's just that good. Maybe not the best shutdown defenseman, but as others have said he is highly visible when on the ice, has great hockey sense and no glaring weaknesses. As far as I am concerned, Mike Green is basically a forward playing the point, and since Washington plays like they are on the power play all game, he never gets to play his true position. In all seriousness, he is a defensive liability on a good day, on a bad day he is painful to watch (just see the highlight package from game 2 of the Montreal series above), the only reason he is more than an afterthought is because of his numbers, which admittedly are impressive but are misleading if you ignore his play in the defensive zone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard. I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck. Yes, it's awarded to the best all-around defenseman. No, Lidstrom has not been as good this year as he was three or five years ago. That doesn't mean he's not one of the three best defensemen in the league. Duncan Keith deserves the Norris. He deserved to be a first teamer last year and he deserves the Norris this year. Drew Doughty deserves to be nominated as well. But Mike Green being nominated is a joke. An absolute joke. Even just looking at offensive performance, his offensive performance was worse than last season despite the fact the other four members of the top unit were more productive offensively. The support cast of the Capitals was also better offensively, leading to a team that scored more goals than any team in fifteen years. A 50-goal increase by his team, and despite that his offensive performance was worse even as a key offensive cog on that team. Lidstrom started the season poorly (mainly offensively, and that's why it was widely noticed). But he was playing as well as any defenseman in the league by mid November and from that point on. Unfortunately when a guy like Lidstrom is playing well, there are no "Lidstrom is doing really well, doesn't feel he is in a slump he has to break out of" articles that people who don't watch the Wings read. Green is a good offensive defenseman. But seriously, I find it hard to say he's that much better, if better at all, than Brian Rafalski. Lidstrom over Green ten out of ten, Kronwall over Green ten out of ten. Swap Rafalski for Green and see what happens. A speedy defenseman with a hard, accurate shot? Rafalski would probably put up better numbers than Green does, given the fact Green is not as slick a playmaker and Rafalski would be even more deadly if feeding Ovechkin and Semin on the PP. Keith, Lidstrom, Doughty, Weber, Boyle would have probably been my ballot. Others in consideration would have been Kronwall, Pronger, Kaberle, Pitkanen, Ehrhoff, Chara, and perhaps Streit and Bouwmeester. 3 egroen, puckbags and 55fan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T-Ruff 47 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I will take Doughty over Keith right now in any situation, hope he wins it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadaBoy 151 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I was talking to a friend today about the nominees for the Norris. I mentioned that it was crazy for the first time in what seemed like forever that Norris Nick wasn't on the ballot... I also mentioned that it is stupid that Green is on the ballot, and that I hoped that the trophy would not turn into "the defenseman with the most points" award. What he said really shocked me... he said that when Lidstrom started winning the Norris... it was only because he was putting up so many points, and not being a real defensive defenseman I didn't even know how to respond to that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Yes, it's awarded to the best all-around defenseman. No, Lidstrom has not been as good this year as he was three or five years ago. That doesn't mean he's not one of the three best defensemen in the league. Duncan Keith deserves the Norris. He deserved to be a first teamer last year and he deserves the Norris this year. Drew Doughty deserves to be nominated as well. But Mike Green being nominated is a joke. An absolute joke. Even just looking at offensive performance, his offensive performance was worse than last season despite the fact the other four members of the top unit were more productive offensively. The support cast of the Capitals was also better offensively, leading to a team that scored more goals than any team in fifteen years. A 50-goal increase by his team, and despite that his offensive performance was worse even as a key offensive cog on that team. Lidstrom started the season poorly (mainly offensively, and that's why it was widely noticed). But he was playing as well as any defenseman in the league by mid November and from that point on. Unfortunately when a guy like Lidstrom is playing well, there are no "Lidstrom is doing really well, doesn't feel he is in a slump he has to break out of" articles that people who don't watch the Wings read. Green is a good offensive defenseman. But seriously, I find it hard to say he's that much better, if better at all, than Brian Rafalski. Lidstrom over Green ten out of ten, Kronwall over Green ten out of ten. Swap Rafalski for Green and see what happens. A speedy defenseman with a hard, accurate shot? Rafalski would probably put up better numbers than Green does, given the fact Green is not as slick a playmaker and Rafalski would be even more deadly if feeding Ovechkin and Semin on the PP. Keith, Lidstrom, Doughty, Weber, Boyle would have probably been my ballot. Others in consideration would have been Kronwall, Pronger, Kaberle, Pitkanen, Ehrhoff, Chara, and perhaps Streit and Bouwmeester. Lidstrom hasn't been that great defensively either this year compared to usual. You can really tell he's getting old. Instead of being the elite of the elite in the league he's starting to look like just an average number 1 defenseman. He's been making turnovers you would have never seen last season. He's just not the same guy, and I'm really not surprised Green is nominated over him. Is Green better? No, but he is putting up huge numbers so he's getting an honourable mention. Lids really didn't deserve top 3 honestly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lidstromboli Report post Posted April 23, 2010 i'm fine with those three as long as green doesn't win Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puckbags 863 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Keith, Lidstrom, Doughty, Weber, Boyle would have probably been my ballot. Others in consideration would have been Kronwall, Pronger, Kaberle, Pitkanen, Ehrhoff, Chara, and perhaps Streit and Bouwmeester. Bouwmeester? Lmao, are you kidding me? Where do you come up with this stuff? He was a total bust in Calgary this year, he did nothing offensively, was terrible defensively, it was his worst season in the NHL so far. Can you provide some details as is why he would even be mentioned in the top 20 d men in the league this year. s*** I think I would put Rafalski ahead of him this year ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedLightGoesOn 81 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Thats another -1 for Green right now. Lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 No surprises here. Top 3 in points as well. Ho-hum. I don't like Pronger, but he got snubbed this year. He's been better than 2 of those guys and imo you could make a case for him being #1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blikst 1 Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Thats another -1 for Green right now. Lol. Since people seem to think his +/- stat during the regular season is worthless, what exactly does that tell us? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyMountainWingGal 108 Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Very sad day indeed when Nick is no longer even nominated for his trophy. It is true this is the changing of the guard and Nick did not have a good enough season to deserved the nomination. The real sad thing is I see no newer, younger "Lidstroms" coming up. When Nick starting winning - there was still Borque, Leetch, even MacGinnis or cough cough Niedermeyer (ouch). Maybe one of these guys will turn into a defensive superstar as far as the position goes - but I don't see it. Chara doesn't cut it - he's already 33 and that was likely his only Norris last year. Just goes to show how hard it is to develop and keep a perennially great defenseman. Nick may have been a once in a lifetime gift for us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
