Kovalchuk will not be a Red Wing

[stevkrause 1,247]

was there any talk we would sign kovy in the first place? stevkrause you said $12 million in russia?...i read $20 million tax free? if the khl folds in a couple years, why would he care as long as he gets his $20 mill for the 1 season. he could come back to the nhl in a year and play for peanuts for whoever had the best cup winning team...i HOPE he goes to russia just to stick it to bettman.

20?!?!? where'd that come from? all reports I read before were for 12...

they've also had a problem paying a lot of players over there, a lot of contracts are going unpaid in full...

Edited April 26, 2010 by stevkrause

[mmamolo 287]

With Lidstrom, the ideal Cap Sitation:

Datsyuk(6.7)

Zetterberg(6.083)

Franzen(3.954)

Filppula(3)

Cleary(2.8)

Draper(1.583)

Hudler(2.875)

Holmstrom(1.5)

Bertuzzi(1.75)

Abdelkader(0.85)

Helm(0.85)

Miller(0.75)

Eaves(0.75)

Ritola(0.5)

Rafalski(6)

Stuart(3.75)

Kronwall(3)

Ericsson(0.9)

Kindl(0.88)

Lidstrom(5)

Lilja(1)

Howard(0.717)

Osgood(1.416)

TOTAL:56.608

Without LIdstrom, Add in Volchenkov for $3.75M

Total Cap:55.358

Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Filppula

Hudler - Abdelkader - Cleary

Miller - Helm - Eaves

Draper, Ritola

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Kronwall - Stuart

Lilja - Ericsson

Kindl

Howard

Osgood

W/O Lidstrom

Stuart - Rafalski

Volchenkov - Kronwall

Lilja - Ericsson

Kindl

[stevkrause 1,247]

With Lidstrom, the ideal Cap Sitation:

Datsyuk(6.7)

Zetterberg(6.083)

Franzen(3.954)

Filppula(3)

Cleary(2.8)

Draper(1.583)

Hudler(2.875)

Holmstrom(1.5)

Bertuzzi(1.75)

Abdelkader(0.85)

Helm(0.85)

Miller(0.75)

Eaves(0.75)

Ritola(0.5)

Rafalski(6)

Stuart(3.75)

Kronwall(3)

Ericsson(0.9)

Kindl(0.88)

Lidstrom(5)

Lilja(1)

Howard(0.717)

Osgood(1.416)

TOTAL:56.608

Without LIdstrom, Add in Volchenkov for $3.75M

Total Cap:55.358

Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Filppula

Hudler - Abdelkader - Cleary

Miller - Helm - Eaves

Draper, Ritola

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Kronwall - Stuart

Lilja - Ericsson

Kindl

Howard

Osgood

W/O Lidstrom

Stuart - Rafalski

Volchenkov - Kronwall

Lilja - Ericsson

Kindl

I'm in this boat...

[Guest Crymson]

I hate to be the one to say this first.... but its about time this orginization puts winning a Stanley Cup first and loyalty second. Tomas Holmstrom had a great regular season, no doubt. He definitely exceeded my expectations after many were completely done with him after last years playoffs. But in my mind, hes getting exposed again. He helps you absolutely zero in 5on5 situations. For a player to make 2 million in the cap world and not help you at all 5on5 when the game is called much tighter, is absolutely insaine. Id sign Homer for no more than 1 million. If he cant agree to that, put the 2 million towards a solid defenseman that would improve this defense thats running on name recognition only.

Homer does help in 5v5. He may have only scored 12 goals at even strength---still not bad---but the points total doesn't show how much production his screens and help in the corners helped to generate. I think you're exaggerating a great deal.

That said, the organization's loyalty to its players is one of the reasons that Detroit is a perennial contender.

[2guns 10]

That said, the organization's loyalty to its players is one of the reasons that Detroit is a perennial contender.

This.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

kovalchuk would not be offered more than dats or Z to be a Wing. therefore, not gonna happen. dats and Z are complete players that bring more than a good shot and speed to the table.

i would like kovy on the wings, but that means no hudler (not that i care much), and possibly trying to get rid of either cleary or rafalski, and lids signing for peanuts if he keeps playing. lids has already made about 100 mil though, so he hopefully will do the same thing yzerman did at the end of his career.

not sure if you want to dismantle too much of the wings team to bring in one guy and have the hossa effect where the pressure is too much for him to handle.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Homer does help in 5v5. He may have only scored 12 goals at even strength---still not bad---but the points total doesn't show how much production his screens and help in the corners helped to generate. I think you're exaggerating a great deal.

That said, the organization's loyalty to its players is one of the reasons that Detroit is a perennial contender.

1. Reread my post. Tell me where I knocked Homer for his regular season play.

2. Please elaborate on how our loyalty is a reason Detroit is a perennial contender...

[mmamolo 287]

I'm in this boat...

Stevkrause, this is why we get along

[stevkrause 1,247]

1. Reread my post. Tell me where I knocked Homer for his regular season play.

2. Please elaborate on how our loyalty is a reason Detroit is a perennial contender...

Postseason -

6GP, 2G, 2A, 4PTS, +3

You've knocked him ALL year... your bias is affecting your objective reasoning...

Loyalty allows you to sign a Zetterberg and Datsyuk for about 6 a year, when they would get 8 elsewhere, loyalty allows you to sign a Stuart for 3.75, when he would get 4.5 elsewhere after a cup run, loyalty allows you to sign a Holmstrom in his PRIME for 2.5, when he would get 4 elsewhere... the fact you even have to ask how it allows for us to continue to be a perennial contender is a joke

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Postseason -

6GP, 2G, 2A, 4PTS, +3

You've knocked him ALL year... your bias is affecting your objective reasoning...

Loyalty allows you to sign a Zetterberg and Datsyuk for about 6 a year, when they would get 8 elsewhere, loyalty allows you to sign a Stuart for 3.75, when he would get 4.5 elsewhere after a cup run, loyalty allows you to sign a Holmstrom in his PRIME for 2.5, when he would get 4 elsewhere... the fact you even have to ask how it allows for us to continue to be a perennial contender is a joke

I would LOVEEE for you to dig through my posts and find where I've knocked him ALL year. I havent knocked him since last offseason.

The Datsyuk deal was a great deal, no doubt about it. But honestly, the Zetterberg deal is fair market value. I wouldnt consider 6 million a year for 12 years to be much of a break. People over exagerate the home town discounts we recieve. I didnt see Samuelsson or Hudler clamoring to give us a break.

And I know its a stretch, but loyalty also allows us to put Maltby in the lineup for Abdelkader after he scored goals in games one and two, when everybody and their brother knew that Abs would be much more effective than Maltby.

Bottom line, I wont down play how good Homer is on the powerplays, hes great. But 2 million for six minutes a game is assinine. Take off your red goggles, hes terrible 5on5. We could take that 2 million and couple it with Berts 1.5 million (Dont get me wrong, I love Bert) and get a legitimate top 6 forward.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

And dont get me wrong, I dont want to see Homer go away. If he wants to come back for around 1 million a year, Im all for having a powerplay specialist on the roster at that cap hit. However, I just think having him play first line minutes hurts us more than it helps.

Ive seen multiple posters on here admit that if it wasnt for his skill set in front of the net, he probably wouldnt even be in the AHL right now. I dont know why you freak out, when I bring it up.

[mmamolo 287]

Bottom line, I wont down play how good Homer is on the powerplays, hes great. But 2 million for six minutes a game is assinine. Take off your red goggles, hes terrible 5on5. We could take that 2 million and couple it with Berts 1.5 million (Dont get me wrong, I love Bert) and get a legitimate top 6 forward.

Terrible 5 on 5 is a stretch. He is definitely slow but he still has very good puck retrival skills down low. Also, $3.5M will definitely get a real good player but not necessarily one that can replace what both Bertuzzi and Holmstrom can bring you. Plus, when you deduct two roster players you need to add two roster players. So if you go out and get a league min guy (500k) you only have 3.25M for your top 6 guy based on your calculations.

Although, in all fairness, if my memory serves my Holmstroms current salary is $2.2M/yr.

[stevkrause 1,247]

I would LOVEEE for you to dig through my posts and find where I've knocked him ALL year. I havent knocked him since last offseason.

The Datsyuk deal was a great deal, no doubt about it. But honestly, the Zetterberg deal is fair market value. I wouldnt consider 6 million a year for 12 years to be much of a break. People over exagerate the home town discounts we recieve. I didnt see Samuelsson or Hudler clamoring to give us a break.

And I know its a stretch, but loyalty also allows us to put Maltby in the lineup for Abdelkader after he scored goals in games one and two, when everybody and their brother knew that Abs would be much more effective than Maltby.

Bottom line, I wont down play how good Homer is on the powerplays, hes great. But 2 million for six minutes a game is assinine. Take off your red goggles, hes terrible 5on5. We could take that 2 million and couple it with Berts 1.5 million (Dont get me wrong, I love Bert) and get a legitimate top 6 forward.

I'm not going to waste my time searching through your posts from this season - you lambasted in him in the off season and OFTEN said he should be on the 4th line and/or was one dimensional all year...

Holmstrom plays a legit 12-15 minutes a night, night in and night out...

6 for Z is not "fair market" he's a point per game guy and INCREDIBLY defensively responsible, not to mention a playoff machine... he could have EASILY got 8+ on the market and Dats as well, and you're crazy if you think otherwise... Samuelsson wasn't home grown, doesn't apply... as for Hudler, he made a money grab and he's young... it wasn't a long term deal and he's coming back, so this is pretty moot as well...

I love my Wings through and through, but am able to be objective as well... try and find another 30 goal scorer that will take that net front abuse for 2 mil a year... try it and just SEE how many teams would JUMP at a chance to pay him 2 mil to play for them.... it IS a discount and he DOES his job. period.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

I'm not going to waste my time searching through your posts from this season - you lambasted in him in the off season and OFTEN said he should be on the 4th line and/or was one dimensional all year...

Holmstrom plays a legit 12-15 minutes a night, night in and night out...

6 for Z is not "fair market" he's a point per game guy and INCREDIBLY defensively responsible, not to mention a playoff machine... he could have EASILY got 8+ on the market and Dats as well, and you're crazy if you think otherwise... Samuelsson wasn't home grown, doesn't apply... as for Hudler, he made a money grab and he's young... it wasn't a long term deal and he's coming back, so this is pretty moot as well...

I love my Wings through and through, but am able to be objective as well... try and find another 30 goal scorer that will take that net front abuse for 2 mil a year... try it and just SEE how many teams would JUMP at a chance to pay him 2 mil to play for them.... it IS a discount and he DOES his job. period.

Z's 6 million looks incredibly good right now, but what makes it fair market value is the fact that his cap hit will be 6 million for the next 11 seasons. He could have very easily gotten 8 plus on a 4 or 5 year deal, but I doubt he would have seen 8 mil for 10 years.... See Marian Hossa, a comparable talent that has a 5 million dollar cap hit.

And again, I dont doubt Holmstroms ability. I appreciate what he has done, I just think the top six would look much better if we were to put someone else on that Datsyuk/Franzen line.

[titanium2 867]

Isn't the cap supposed to go up 900K?

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Isn't the cap supposed to go up 900K?

I believe so, yes. What happened to all that talk last year that it was supposed to go down a couple million this year?

[stevkrause 1,247]

Z's 6 million looks incredibly good right now, but what makes it fair market value is the fact that his cap hit will be 6 million for the next 11 seasons. He could have very easily gotten 8 plus on a 4 or 5 year deal, but I doubt he would have seen 8 mil for 10 years.... See Marian Hossa, a comparable talent that has a 5 million dollar cap hit.

And again, I dont doubt Holmstroms ability. I appreciate what he has done, I just think the top six would look much better if we were to put someone else on that Datsyuk/Franzen line.

If you remember correctly Hossa WAS offered not 8, but 9 mil for 9 years... in Edmonton... even though I'm bummed he left, I at least respect that he wants to win and took less to go somewhere he thinks he'll have a chance (same reason he came here first) - just because someone takes less, doesn't mean they couldn't get more...

I still think Holmstrom is a top 6 guy and his ability to work down low and get in front, HELPS those more talented players around him... now, I will actually agree with you that there could be a better winger for that line, just because I don't like Holmstrom and Franzen on the same line anyway, as I'm from the mindset of breaking up the big bodies/net front presence's, but that doesn't mean he's not a top 6, just because he's not a top 3...

I would actually like to see Bert(provided that Babs can burn it into his head to shoot and not try and pass all the time) with Dats and Franzen for now and Holmstrom with Z and Fil...

I believe so, yes. What happened to all that talk last year that it was supposed to go down a couple million this year?

the economy actually took a surprising step back in the right direction sooner than expected...

[wingsownnhl43 14]

If you remember correctly Hossa WAS offered not 8, but 9 mil for 9 years... in Edmonton... even though I'm bummed he left, I at least respect that he wants to win and took less to go somewhere he thinks he'll have a chance (same reason he came here first) - just because someone takes less, doesn't mean they couldn't get more...

I would actually like to see Bert(provided that Babs can burn it into his head to shoot and not try and pass all the time) with Dats and Franzen for now and Holmstrom with Z and Fil...

1. Hossa was offered that over 4 or 5 years. He or Z would never get that much money over 10-12 years.

2. I actually wouldnt mind seeing that. Even though it'd be tough to split the Z/Flip/Bert line up right now.

[titanium2 867]

I believe so, yes.

How much of a raise is due for Helm, Eaves, Miller and Abdelkader?

[Trapt1307 81]

Whatever happens, there needs to be a shakeup. This team isn't going to get it done going forward. They're starting to remind me of the pre-lockout Wings. Whether they're tired or not, they're starting to look stale. Lidstrom or no Lidstrom, Kovalchuk or no Kovalchuk, they need some fresh blood in here. This will be an exciting offseason for sure, can't wait to see what happens.

[Shady Ultima 40]

Tomas Holmstrom had a great regular season, no doubt. He definitely exceeded my expectations after many were completely done with him after last years playoffs. But in my mind, hes getting exposed again. He helps you absolutely zero in 5on5 situations. For a player to make 2 million in the cap world and not help you at all 5on5 when the game is called much tighter, is absolutely insaine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but who scored the winning goal in game 4 on 5on5? Oh, right, Homer..

I think we may be more importantly looking for a goalie. I have a sneaking suspicion Osgood is going to retire after this season is over

[Buppy 1,720]

1. Hossa was offered that over 4 or 5 years. He or Z would never get that much money over 10-12 years.

2. I actually wouldnt mind seeing that. Even though it'd be tough to split the Z/Flip/Bert line up right now.

1. The deal from Edmonton was reportedly 9 years, $81 million. Though, ironically, with the precedent set by his Chicago contract, he'd never get that now.

2. Personally, I think Bert's slow ass is dragging that line down. Homer isn't any faster, but might work better. I'd rather see Cleary there, even though it didn't work the first time they tried it.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

1. The deal from Edmonton was reportedly 9 years, $81 million. Though, ironically, with the precedent set by his Chicago contract, he'd never get that now.

2. Personally, I think Bert's slow ass is dragging that line down. Homer isn't any faster, but might work better. I'd rather see Cleary there, even though it didn't work the first time they tried it.

1. Completely agree.

2. What do you mean hes dragging the line down? Wouldnt you say that line has been our most productive this playoffs?

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Whatever happens, there needs to be a shakeup. This team isn't going to get it done going forward. They're starting to remind me of the pre-lockout Wings. Whether they're tired or not, they're starting to look stale. Lidstrom or no Lidstrom, Kovalchuk or no Kovalchuk, they need some fresh blood in here. This will be an exciting offseason for sure, can't wait to see what happens.

Cosign on this one. Ill admit that bagging on Homer is nitpicking. I think the biggest problem we are having is the lack of secondary scoring and our defense.

Aside from our top two lines, we have recieved very little help as far as offensive production, and our defense has been very average. We will be adding Hudler which is a plus. I would also love to add another forward to get three scoring lines like we had the past two years.

As for our defense, I dont know exactly where to put my finger on. On paper you see Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Ericcson, Lilja and it looks great, but somethings just not right. Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall are obviously the sexier choices in terms of choosing our best defensemen, but I honestly think Stuart and Lilja have played very well this series. Kronwall has probably played the worst but I dont think you can move him, just because of what he brings to the table. And he has a reasonable cap hit. Maybe a shake up is in order here, or maybe we just keep it the same and hope Ericcson and Kindl develop quickly. Im just glad Im not in charge to make the decision.

Edited April 26, 2010 by wingsownnhl43

[Buppy 1,720]

What do you mean hes dragging the line down? Wouldnt you say that line has been our most productive this playoffs?

Easily our best. But I think it could be even better with the addition of a winger who didn't skate like he's making the ice in front of him as he goes. They're certainly carrying their own weight though, so I won't complain if they stick with it. I'm just saying...

...

As for our defense, I dont know exactly where to put my finger on. On paper you see Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Ericcson, Lilja and it looks great, but somethings just not right. Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall are obviously the sexier choices in terms of choosing our best defensemen, but I honestly think Stuart and Lilja have played very well this series. Kronwall has probably played the worst but I dont think you can move him, just because of what he brings to the table. And he has a reasonable cap hit. Maybe a shake up is in order here, or maybe we just keep it the same and hope Ericcson and Kindl develop quickly. Im just glad Im not in charge to make the decision.

Stu has easily been our best D (dumbass move on Sunday and all) this series. Nick has been as bad as we've ever seen from him, but he's still an elite player. He was our best in the regular season, I can overlook a poor first round. Rafi and his contract aren't looking great, but not as bad as some suggest either. Lils and Ericsson are pretty much all you can expect from a third pair. Would be nice if Ericsson would hit someone, but he's a +2 so can't really complain. I've never been a Kronwall fan. He's a headhunter but otherwise not physical. Average defensive skills that he degrades by trying to play like an elite scorer with only slightly above average talent. But sadly, it would be pretty hard to upgrade him for $3 mil.

Not sure it's possible to improve our defense, aside from the guys just playing better.