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HockeyCoach13

Put Ozzy in.

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I highly doubt anybody is taking away from Osgood's recent past performances, so not much need to divulge into numbers there saying one goalie is better than the other.

Presently though, it is Howard's job and he has not been the problem/main problem on this team in losses (sans Phoenix game 4 perhaps) and we're basically smacking the few upside the head who think Osgood should be starting next game. Not because of Osgood, of course he is capable, but because Howard really hasn't done much to justify yanking him to the bench.

There have definitely been people dropping the cliche of Osgood getting by on stacked teams. It's typical BS Osgood analysis around here. When Osgood plays well, it's because of stacked teams. When anyone else struggles, it's the team's fault. Meanwhile, in the regular season, when the team plays poorly, it's because they're not confident in Osgood to make the save. Then someone else comes in and plays well (and perhaps the team gets a wake up call and picks up their game too...) and suddenly the teams playing better because the goalie's giving them confidence.

And that does bring me to a point about Howard again. If we're going to go with the idea that strong play from a goalie makes a team play better with more confidence, and then that weak play makes a team play worse with less confidence, you've got to question how Howard's play in the post-season is influencing this team. And while I'd agree that he certainly hasn't been the only problem, he's most certainly not been a strength for us the majority of the time thus far.

He's struggled to hold leads and oftentimes given up the leads early. On multiple occasions he's surrendered the lead/let the other team tie it up merely moments after we tied it up/took the lead. And that boils down to the one thing I very much agree with Eva on: Howard's timing for giving up goals has been terrible, and far too often these goals are either stoppable or blatantly soft.

Here is a stat that to me is fairly stunning: Howard's given up goals in pairs (or more...) just a few moments or less apart, in 6 out of 9 games.

While the circumstances are obviously different given how much Osgood's played this year, if this were 2008 and Howard started and played as he has this year, he absolutely would have been pulled by now. The biggest reason we pulled Hasek is because he kept giving up goals in pairs, surrendering leads, and generally not stopping the puck at the worst times. Howard's absolutely had the same issue, and for as well as he's played at times (and bear in mind, I gave him a ton of credit for his Game 2 recovery and don't hold those 3rd and 4th goals against him), he's also played downright poorly at others.

As I've said all along and all season, I like Jim Howard a lot and I'm very happy for all he's done this year and I think he's got a lot of potential if he keeps his head straight and continues to improve on his fundamentals. But at the end of the day, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything about the post-season: he hasn't been good enough, not even close. If Osgood were in game shape, I think Howard would have and probably should have been out in the first round. Far too often he has not played well enough to allow this team to get any kind of momentum or swagger going. When you're constantly giving up goals in pairs, giving up leads early, giving up leads or ties through the game, you don't give your team any chance to get going.

Again, I'm not saying it's all his fault by any means, but you've got to sugarcoat it and some to say that he hasn't been a glaring weakness in the post-season far too often. And to suggest that he isn't helping the team play better is no stretch either. And while I get that it's real hard to put Osgood in at this point for other reasons, and while I get that Howard's finished games better than he started at times, it doesn't change the fact that we've lost more games than we've won and Howard's most certainly one of the reasons that is the case.

So while it's not so cut and dry for me, I certainly understand why many are ready to yank Howard and see if Osgood can get it done again. This isn't just slappy's on the forum. It's the radio hosts, it's the journalists, and it's not a brand new suggestion after game 4. While I get that Howard is a rookie and I'm not going to hold this against him in the future, I don't think anyone is being honest if they suggest that Howard hasn't been incredibly disappointing in the post-season so far. The whole reason we went with Howard over a 3-time Cup winner down the stretch is because he played so great, at times looking utterly dominant while putting on a one man show. He absolutely has not played anywhere close to that level in the post-season.

How can you really expect people to be happy about that?

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K...

I can play numbers too and spin them the way I want to as well. Just look at the percentages of this poll.

Which probably suggests that Howard's play has not been the main problem and placing Osgood over him probably might not have changed all that much if all things relatively stayed the same these past 2 games. It's pretty damned hard to stop pucks every time when you're left out to dry on a 5-on-3 or on a 3-on-1. Whether you are Osgood or Howard. It's not his fault when a stick of his teammate's breaks leading to a rush or the referees decide to just be totally incompetent for nearly the entire game.

Regardless of how numbers and stats are thrown out in any scenario, it doesn't change that Howard hasn't done anything to strongly consider getting yanked to the bench.

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NOW ITS TIME

Ozzie doesn't dig you out of a 3 game hole, plain and simple. Howard sucked, there's no arguing that, but the Wings are playing like individuals and not a team. If they remember to play like they did near the end of the season, they still have a slight chance.

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Just like many things and people with this team, Osgood is an idea whose time has passed. Let Howie lie in his bed. Besides throwing Ozzie into this mess would be one s***ty reward. He deserves better - let him have his victory lap in the rotation next season. Then its out to pasture with the rest.

*grammar

Edited by kook_10

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<br />Just like many things and people with this team, Osgood is an idea whose time is past.  Let Howie lie in his bed.  Besides throwing Ozzie into this mess would be one s***ty reward.  He deserves better - let him have his victory lap in the rotation next season.  Then its out to pasture with the rest.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

well said let Howard learn, no point now and your right would be a crappy reward.

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I'm a big Howard fan, but it's time to put the Oz in. Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

I totally agree. 1st and 3rd goals totally his fault. he needs to step aside and take it as a learning experience. i mean, he wont lose 4 games of the series at least. Ozzie will get a small chance to come up clutch even through hes cold, i want to see a wall, and i kinda think it will happen.

I love howard, and support him totally, but its not going to be great for him to come in after the last game, i see him being more nervous not to be swept and not letting it roll off his back.

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Put Osbad in game 4 so we can blame it on him. He's always been awful and would be the perfect way for him to end his s*** career.

He's signed next year. You better believe Babcock will give him more of a chance, as opposed to no chance this year, to be the number one next year...

Howard's now let in as many goals as Osgood did on the entire '98 Cup run...

I don't know if you take a chance on Osgood now or not, but I know there's no way we're going anywhere with Howard this season. Even if we win this series by some miracle, Howard's not playing well enough to get it done.

The part of me thats desperate says "DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!" especially after this game, but who am I kidding? It's unlikely to help.

But if being down 3-0 isn't a desperate time, I don't know what is...

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Howard's now let in as many goals as Osgood did on the entire '98 Cup run...

That's completely fair. Not like Osgood played in front of a great team or anything.

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That's completely fair. Not like Osgood played in front of a great team or anything.

And how many Games did Ozzie play in that cup run compared to the 10 Howard has played this year?

'98 Ozzie played in 22 games.

'10 Howard has played in 10 games.

Edited by Raptor1116

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And how many Games did Ozzie play in that cup run compared to the 10 Howard has played this year?

'98 Ozzie played in 22 games.

'10 Howard has played in 10 games.

Like I said, that's completely fair. Comparing the '98 Wings team to the '10 Wings team is a even match. He'll I'd take Lebda over Fetisov any day of the week.

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its not about the team he played in front of, its about the experience and how good he is in the playoffs.

Ask yourself how Osgood did in '93-'94 that's a more fair comparison.

Edited by Carman

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That's completely fair. Not like Osgood played in front of a great team or anything.

He also played pretty damn well to match his great teams effort and put up an equally great effort. He carried his weight and some. He was 1st or 2nd I believe in every major goalie stat.

Bottom line is when you get done playing Phoenix, one of the worst offensive teams in the league, and you're just 3 games into the 2nd round, and you've given up 30 goals already......pretty brutal, and no small accident. Howard hasn't played well far too much of the time. He's not carrying his weight too often.

And how do you expect the team to play when Howard gives up soft goals or pairs of goals and surrenders leads in the process again and again? How are they supposed to get any momentum going? People love to make the correlation when the goalies playing well and giving his team confidence, and then what, we're just going to forget how it works when it goes the other way?

He hasn't gotten it done. Not even close. That's the bottom line.

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It's Howard's fault that the Wing's took many more penalties than the Sharks?

Look Howard let in some bad bad goals, but the Wings didn't do him a hell of a lot of favors either.

He's not the main reason, he kept the games close when the Wings have been completely outplayed.

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What exactly is Howard going to "learn" by leaving him in there and letting him lose?

Right now, I have ZERO confidence in Howard to get it done. Ozzie is a huge question mark, but I'd rather live with a question mark than someone who I have zero confidence in.

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Like I said, that's completely fair. Comparing the '98 Wings team to the '10 Wings team is a even match. He'll I'd take Lebda over Fetisov any day of the week.

Howard has let in as many goals as Ozzie did in '98 while playing 12 LESS GAMES!

I don't care what team is in front of you if you are playing in 12 less games you should not let in as many goals as the other guy.

And why is it that when Ozzie does well it's always, "Well, look at the team that played in front of him." He has never been given credit and I don't understand it. He was only the best goalie in the playoffs the past two seasons and a 3 time Cup winner.

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It's Howard's fault that the Wing's took many more penalties than the Sharks?

Look Howard let in some bad bad goals, but the Wings didn't do him a hell of a lot of favors either.

He's not the main reason, he kept the games close when the Wings have been completely outplayed.

i agree hes not the main reason but him letting in those 2 goals were a major thing, them not counting the first goal was a big thing aswell

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right and he had barely any experience then

And Howard has barely any experience now?

Howard has let in as many goals as Ozzie did in '98 while playing 12 LESS GAMES!

I don't care what team is in front of you if you are playing in 12 less games you should not let in as many goals as the other guy.

And why is it that when Ozzie does well it's always, "Well, look at the team that played in front of him." He has never been given credit and I don't understand it. He was only the best goalie in the playoffs the past two seasons and a 3 time Cup winner.

I love Osgood. I think he should be a Hall of Famer, he's been great and I couldn't have more respect for an NHL athlete.

That said what good does that do now?

My point was if you are going to compare Osgood to Howard it's much fairer to compare their first forays into the post season rather then picking a year out of Osgood's prime.

Edited by Carman

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