180 replies to this topic

[Red Wings 2010]

You are an idiot.



Too obvious...

I agree.

[Dimaline312000]

While I do somewhat agree that Howard might not be ready for the Sharks in the playoffs, he has done very well up to this point. Putting Ozzy in now I'm just not sure how he can bring his game to that upper level in such a shot time. He hasn't played for close to a month now and when he did he let in quite a few goals. I'm an Ozzie fan for life this has nothing to do with not likeing him I just don't know if that's going to mean we are going to be able to turn this series around. Wings have had a great season and considering what they have been through this season making it this far is pretty good. I'm not saying it's over but I'm just not sure I'd want to ride Ozzie at this point.

[Electrophile]

Switching goalies mid-series is a desperation move. It worked in 2008, but only because the 2008 squad was much better than this one. If we switch goalies now, everyone's going to know we're toast.


Ride Howard until the end, whenever it happens.

[HankthaTank]

DUMBEST POLL I HAVE SEEN... Without Jimmy that game was like 8-3 last night. Give it up Osgood slappies this is your goalie for the next 15 years. How about some more effective play in front of Howie...Delete this thread now

[thomaz5]

Can he be a ref? That's the only way I'd put him in. With fair officiating the Wings are up 2-0. At worst tied. Last nights game was a farce!

[Motown4013]

Do you want to lose game 3???? Why would Ozzy even get a second of consideration. Just wondering...
Did you watch the game? Jimmy played a great game...he is definately not the problem

[SouthernWingsFan]

It's not how many saves you make. It's when and how you make them. Howard gave up two soft goals in the final 15:20, killing the Wings' momentum. The first let the Sharks tie the game, and gave them much more life. This put the Wings back on their heels as the Sharks increased their attack. Howard gave up another bad goal with only 7:23 remaining, putting the Sharks into a 4-3 lead with little time left in the game.

41 saves doesn't matter if he allows soft, game-changing goals at two pivotal moments of the third period. He could have made 100 saves and it wouldn't matter if he allowed those two goals and it changed the lead and won San Jose the game.

As a goaltender, he should assume the most goal support he's going to get is 2-3 goals. If he allows 2 s***ty goals, he better be perfect the rest of the game. While he played well, he wasn't. Especially considering he was more than once saved by a teammate (VS once even called "Great save Howard" for a shot when Howard was flat on his back and the shot hit a kneeling Z in the logo) so there could have been even more bad goals to rant about.

Bad goals at bad times are about the worst thing a goalie can give up, and Howard has given up more than a few this playoff run. The offense has come through for him a few times to cover that up, but it can't be there all the time. No team scores 4-5 goals every game... unless they're playing Howard the way he has played most of the playoffs.

LAUGH OUT LOUD.




I'm going to LAUGH OUT LOUD again at this.

I'd hardly consider giving up a 5-on-3 goal in a goalmouth scramble and a 3-on-1 goal rush immediately after one of your player's stick unfortunately breaks, soft.

I know I'm going to regret asking, but what isn't a soft goal to you then? Or is this all about trying to find any warped reasoning to put Osgood in when Howard's play really isn't the main issue to worry about right now?

Edited by SouthernWingsFan, 03 May 2010 - 06:19 PM.

[BuckeyeWingsfan80]

this thread is the floater......

[ChitownWingsfan]

Howard's not the problem and Ozzie's not the solution to what the actual problem is.

[tdinc]

Howard obviously doesnt have enough experience to face San Jose which is a more veteran type team. last year i believe ozzy was the best goalie in the playoffs with the best goals against ratio, somewhere around 1.88 or something? i dont remember. the point is howard just isnt ready for this veteran team, we need to put in our veteran goalie. please. everyone knows the last two goals scored by SJ was howards fault.

anyone agree

[eva unit zero]

LAUGH OUT LOUD.




I'm going to LAUGH OUT LOUD again at this.

I'd hardly consider giving up a 5-on-3 goal in a goalmouth scramble and a 3-on-1 goal rush immediately after one of your player's stick unfortunately breaks, soft.

I know I'm going to regret asking, but what isn't a soft goal to you then? Or is this all about trying to find any warped reasoning to put Osgood in when Howard's play really isn't the main issue to worry about right now?

Here's how those goals were Howard's fault:

The "goalmouth scramble" goal only happened because Howard came 2 light years out of the net. Had he not been five feet out of the crease with two or three Sharks down low, there would have been no danger at all. That was a huge failure on Howard's part and regardless of whether the defense failed to clear the puck, the goalie should have been in proper position and had he been, the puck is frozen and the play stops.

The 3-on-1 was dangerous until the Sharks played it horribly. Heatley went to the bottom of the right circle while the other two skaters went to the slot right near the hash marks, where the Wing defender could cut off a pass to either player. This meant that to take advantage of the opportunity, the puck carrier had to shoot the puck or the 3-on-1 would be gone. Howard, who was at the edge of the crease, failed to either absorb the shot or direct the rebound towards the end boards, instead putting it right on the tape of the left-handed Thornton and giving him a wide open net to shoot on from short range. If that rebound goes where it should have gone, there's no goal on that play. It's like the "amazing" Hanzal second save. Howard stopped the first shot with his glove and couldn't trap it, instead throwing it right to Hanzal for a second chance. He stopped it, but it was his fault Hanzal got a second chance to begin with.

People think "flashy save, wow!" or "3-on-1, no way the goalie could stop that" without actually looking at what happened during the play. Heatley f***ed that 3-on-1 up and the Sharks were lucky Howard has s***ty rebound control.

[Packer487]

I have an idea. Let's ***** about a 3 goals against and argue in favor of putting in a guy who hasn't given up fewer than three in a full game in almost five months.

Brilliant!

[SouthernWingsFan]

Here's how those goals were Howard's fault:

The "goalmouth scramble" goal only happened because Howard came 2 light years out of the net. Had he not been five feet out of the crease with two or three Sharks down low, there would have been no danger at all. That was a huge failure on Howard's part and regardless of whether the defense failed to clear the puck, the goalie should have been in proper position and had he been, the puck is frozen and the play stops.

The 3-on-1 was dangerous until the Sharks played it horribly. Heatley went to the bottom of the right circle while the other two skaters went to the slot right near the hash marks, where the Wing defender could cut off a pass to either player. This meant that to take advantage of the opportunity, the puck carrier had to shoot the puck or the 3-on-1 would be gone. Howard, who was at the edge of the crease, failed to either absorb the shot or direct the rebound towards the end boards, instead putting it right on the tape of the left-handed Thornton and giving him a wide open net to shoot on from short range. If that rebound goes where it should have gone, there's no goal on that play. It's like the "amazing" Hanzal second save. Howard stopped the first shot with his glove and couldn't trap it, instead throwing it right to Hanzal for a second chance. He stopped it, but it was his fault Hanzal got a second chance to begin with.

People think "flashy save, wow!" or "3-on-1, no way the goalie could stop that" without actually looking at what happened during the play. Heatley f***ed that 3-on-1 up and the Sharks were lucky Howard has s***ty rebound control.

You're nuts.

Good luck convincing the majority on here that this is true.

[Crymson]

Here's how those goals were Howard's fault:

The "goalmouth scramble" goal only happened because Howard came 2 light years out of the net. Had he not been five feet out of the crease with two or three Sharks down low, there would have been no danger at all. That was a huge failure on Howard's part and regardless of whether the defense failed to clear the puck, the goalie should have been in proper position and had he been, the puck is frozen and the play stops.

The 3-on-1 was dangerous until the Sharks played it horribly. Heatley went to the bottom of the right circle while the other two skaters went to the slot right near the hash marks, where the Wing defender could cut off a pass to either player. This meant that to take advantage of the opportunity, the puck carrier had to shoot the puck or the 3-on-1 would be gone. Howard, who was at the edge of the crease, failed to either absorb the shot or direct the rebound towards the end boards, instead putting it right on the tape of the left-handed Thornton and giving him a wide open net to shoot on from short range. If that rebound goes where it should have gone, there's no goal on that play. It's like the "amazing" Hanzal second save. Howard stopped the first shot with his glove and couldn't trap it, instead throwing it right to Hanzal for a second chance. He stopped it, but it was his fault Hanzal got a second chance to begin with.

People think "flashy save, wow!" or "3-on-1, no way the goalie could stop that" without actually looking at what happened during the play. Heatley f***ed that 3-on-1 up and the Sharks were lucky Howard has s***ty rebound control.

Eva: You have impossibly high expectations for goaltenders. You expect perfection, and that is unreasonable. Howard put up an excellent performance last night. No goalie in this year's playoffs would have done better, in all likelihood. No goalie---indeed, no human---is perfect.

Perhaps your expectation of perfection is the reason you're so darned negative about most Red Wings-related matters. It is puzzling to me that Jiri Hudler is the most notable exception to your general negativity. Why is this? Is he perfect somehow? Or are your expectations for him simply more realistic than those you hold for the rest of the team?

[Zeowingsfan]

Osgood is rusty and no amount of rustoff is going to remove the rust. Unless changing goalies makes your team better at faceoffs, makes the reffing fair and makes your team play a better game, than what is the point of changing Howard for Ozzie. We are not losing due to Howard, we are losing key battles, faceoffs, etc... and switching to Osgood is not going to fix any of that.

[moocat]

Here's how those goals were Howard's fault:

The "goalmouth scramble" goal only happened because Howard came 2 light years out of the net. Had he not been five feet out of the crease with two or three Sharks down low, there would have been no danger at all. That was a huge failure on Howard's part and regardless of whether the defense failed to clear the puck, the goalie should have been in proper position and had he been, the puck is frozen and the play stops.

The 3-on-1 was dangerous until the Sharks played it horribly. Heatley went to the bottom of the right circle while the other two skaters went to the slot right near the hash marks, where the Wing defender could cut off a pass to either player. This meant that to take advantage of the opportunity, the puck carrier had to shoot the puck or the 3-on-1 would be gone. Howard, who was at the edge of the crease, failed to either absorb the shot or direct the rebound towards the end boards, instead putting it right on the tape of the left-handed Thornton and giving him a wide open net to shoot on from short range. If that rebound goes where it should have gone, there's no goal on that play.

Whoa...

So in game one Howard was lambasted for getting caught deep on the 4th goal on the 5 on 3 and when he plays the shot aggressively in game 2 with two teammates boxing him he screwed up as well. The only thing you can say on that goal was that he was maybe a tad too aggressive but he still played it correctly. He cut the angle and took the shooter away. His defense has to help by continuing to box out (he also slipped getting up which didn't help).

On the 3-1 you are absolutely bonkers. Howard made a great blocker stop on Heatley so how you expect him to absorb the shot is beyond me, and he did deflect the puck out away from danger, unfortunately it hit Rafalski in the leg and bounced to Thornton so your assertion that it was put right on his tape is dead wrong. Also the third Shark stayed high while the other Shark went to the far side. Goals 3-4 are not on Howard.

Howard still has work to do to tighten up technique without a doubt but some fans have no concept of the different stylesd being employed by goaltending coaches. Howard has to continue to work on his hands and making sure that pucks are controlled when in the gloves but he's come a long way just this year with this. A lot of people ***** about his rebounds of the pads without realizing that this is; A. Part of what you get with the butterfly technique and taking away the lower portion of the net, and B. Often intentional with goal being to direct or kick the puck out against the grain of the attack (the Wings struggled early in the year to get used to this and to use it as part of the breakout).

Howard has ok size and comes from the blocking style of goaltending with a sprinkling of athleticism thrown in. This means positioning more than reaction. This means looking to block and cut off the angle rather than playing deep and reacting to the shot. Early in Howard's career and even early this year Howard over relied on the backside or down recovery (staying on his knees and pushing to slide over) this is part of the blocking technique he was coached to use and he over used it (see Edmonton early in the season). This season (goalie coach)Jim Berdard has obviously worked with him to rely less on backing in deep and sliding over to make a save when he can aggressively challenge the shooter, cut off the angle and hopefully swallow the puck or direct out of danger. He also has been coached to get to his feet rather than slide around. This is something that Osgood does and it used to drive me nuts because I thought it was an Ozzie thing but seeing Howard do in now, I know it's part of Bedard's system that he teaches. The Wings very clearly instruct their goalies to worry about the shot (as they should and every team does) and rely on your defense to clean up anything that gets free.

Ozzie is a stud for incorporating the butterfly more solidly into his technique at such a late stage of his career but he was and always will be a hybrid/reaction goalie. He doesn't give the same type of rebounds as Howard because that is how he plays. He's better with his gloves and works the body more. Ozzie can't get to some of the pucks that Howard can with his athleticism but Howard can't suck in some of the pucks Ozzie can. It's just the difference in style and in Ozzie's case a bit of knowledge from being in the show so long.

Howard has made great strides this year and while he does give a bad rebound from time to time this is the case for all goalies. Hopefully he continues to keep getting better and better. Lastly the amount of goals scored and goals against average are not always indicators of how well a goalie is playing. Remember to look at the nature of the scoring chance and the goalies save percentage.

[Barrie]

Howard is the goalie of the future, win or lose, let him get playoff experience!

[gcom007]

To those trying to take something away from Osgood's performance the last couple of years, I just want to do a little stats comparison, as awful as they may be at times. Also of note, throughout the playoffs, Osgood was at or near the top of the league leaders in goalie stats throughout the playoffs. He didn't just come out and get by on strong teams, especially last year. The '08 team was certainly strong, but Osgood matched their effort and the numbers tell the story. I mean, for the love, the guy blanked the Penguins in the first two games to open the Stanley Cup Finals. I don't care how strong your team is, that's an amazing feat.

And as far as last year goes, I think many of you are just totally forgetting things. Osgood was nothing short of outstanding, probably better even than he was the year before. The team had countless injuries throughout the playoffs to major stars. Lidstrom actually missed games! Hell, and game 4 against Columbus dragged his stellar stats down as he let in 5 goals while sick or dehydrated...I can't remember what it was, but he was FAR from 100% after only surrendering 2 goals in 3 games prior to that. And if you break it down over the course of the playoffs, Osgood was facing a lot of shots. On average he'd be just a few below Howard right now and Osgood isn't one to give up the rebound shots like Howard.

If last June people had tried to say anything negative about Osgood's playoff performance, or tried to minimize it in any way, there would be a tidal wave of people declaring you wholly and completely insane. If we had won the Cup, Osgood was getting the Conn Smythe, absolutely no doubt about it. He was the difference in the playoffs for a team battered by injuries to its stars. Against the Blackhawks, a far, far, far stronger team offensively than Phoenix, without Nicklas Lidstrom for the final two games of the series, Osgood held the Hawks to 1 goal each game.

And how well did Datsyuk play for us last year? How about in the first four games of the Finals? Oh wait, he didn't even play. How about Hossa? How about Holmstrom?

How else can I put this? I think it's absolute lunacy to suggest that Osgood was anything short of brilliant during the last two post-seasons. And any way you shake it, when push comes to shove, Howard hasn't answered the call too much of the time this year. We're not even to game 3 of the second round yet and he's already given up almost as many goals as Osgood gave up in the entire Cup run in 2008! And in the first round we played one of the worst offensive teams in the league! It's worth defending Howard's play last night in particular, but far too often he's failed to raise his game, and he's created as much chaos for himself at times as anyone on this team.

There's no way in hell you can't look at the goaltending as a problem when you're giving up 4 or more goals in 5 out of 9 of your starts thus far. It doesn't mean that goaltending has been the only problem, it doesn't mean we should put Osgood in, nor does it mean that Howard's been utterly terrible. But he's been nowhere near good enough. Not even close. You can't give up so many goals early, many of them stoppable if not blatantly soft, and expect the team to rally around him and play their best hockey. Osgood was a rock the last two post-seasons; he was as steady as they come. There's no way in hell you can look at Howard's post-season so far and say the same. Howard hasn't given this team a chance to relax and get their game together far too often. That's just not going to cut it, no matter how well he plays the rest of the game.

And then there's last year...

Babcock on Osgood last year after the playoffs: "Despite the loss, Red Wings coach Mike Babcock couldn't contain his praise for the veteran goalie. "I think just in the playoffs in general he was excellent for us," Babcock said. "(He) gave us a chance. You know, along the way in the playoffs this year (was) much different than last year. We never were always firing on all cylinders. We always had people missing. And Ozzie was one of our strengths, to say the least, all playoff long. I think he deserves a lot of credit. His numbers speaks for himself, he's done a great job." ( http://redwings.nhl....s.htm?id=466559 )

And as Babcock says, the numbers tell quite a story here...

Chris Osgood

2007-2008 Playoff Stats
GP: 19
Record: 14-4
SO: 3
SA: 430
GA: 30
SV%: .930
GAA: 1.55

2008-2009 Playoff Stats
GP: 23 Record: 15-8
SO: 2
GA: 47
SA: 637
SV%: .926
GAA: 2.01

Jimmy Howard

2009-2010 Playoff Stats
GP: 9
Record: 4-5
SO: 1
GA: 26
SA: 293
SV%: .911
GAA: 2.92

[Konnan511]

How the hell did 1+ people vote yes? You really have to be the biggest dumbass in the world to vote yes in this thread.

[scottj]

Howard is the goalie of the future, win or lose, let him get playoff experience!

this is what I'm sayin... I mean, who thought we were gonna win the cup at the beginning of this year anyways?

sure It'll be nice if we win the cup, but I think in the long run, experience for the guy who's supposed to be our next franchise goaltender (already showing tons of promise) is pretty important

that and... well, nof****** way ozzie's gonna take us to the cup! lol! youf***inretardedorwut???

edit: yes (27 votes [10.55%])

here's a new stat for all of your brainholes!... approximately 10.55% of this message board is beyond retarded

Edited by scottj, 04 May 2010 - 01:27 AM.