180 replies to this topic

[HOCKEY MATTERS]

Whoa...

So in game one Howard was lambasted for getting caught deep on the 4th goal on the 5 on 3 and when he plays the shot aggressively in game 2 with two teammates boxing him he screwed up as well.

Now you're getting the picture. Some folks just like to troll argue debate. You can't win the discussion, though. Just when you make a valid point, the sand under your feet shifts.......

[SouthernWingsFan]

To those trying to take something away from Osgood's performance the last couple of years, I just want to do a little stats comparison, as awful as they may be at times. Also of note, throughout the playoffs, Osgood was at or near the top of the league leaders in goalie stats throughout the playoffs. He didn't just come out and get by on strong teams, especially last year. The '08 team was certainly strong, but Osgood matched their effort and the numbers tell the story. I mean, for the love, the guy blanked the Penguins in the first two games to open the Stanley Cup Finals. I don't care how strong your team is, that's an amazing feat.

And as far as last year goes, I think many of you are just totally forgetting things. Osgood was nothing short of outstanding, probably better even than he was the year before. The team had countless injuries throughout the playoffs to major stars. Lidstrom actually missed games! Hell, and game 4 against Columbus dragged his stellar stats down as he let in 5 goals while sick or dehydrated...I can't remember what it was, but he was FAR from 100% after only surrendering 2 goals in 3 games prior to that. And if you break it down over the course of the playoffs, Osgood was facing a lot of shots. On average he'd be just a few below Howard right now and Osgood isn't one to give up the rebound shots like Howard.

If last June people had tried to say anything negative about Osgood's playoff performance, or tried to minimize it in any way, there would be a tidal wave of people declaring you wholly and completely insane. If we had won the Cup, Osgood was getting the Conn Smythe, absolutely no doubt about it. He was the difference in the playoffs for a team battered by injuries to its stars. Against the Blackhawks, a far, far, far stronger team offensively than Phoenix, without Nicklas Lidstrom for the final two games of the series, Osgood held the Hawks to 1 goal each game.

And how well did Datsyuk play for us last year? How about in the first four games of the Finals? Oh wait, he didn't even play. How about Hossa? How about Holmstrom?

How else can I put this? I think it's absolute lunacy to suggest that Osgood was anything short of brilliant during the last two post-seasons. And any way you shake it, when push comes to shove, Howard hasn't answered the call too much of the time this year. We're not even to game 3 of the second round yet and he's already given up almost as many goals as Osgood gave up in the entire Cup run in 2008! And in the first round we played one of the worst offensive teams in the league! It's worth defending Howard's play last night in particular, but far too often he's failed to raise his game, and he's created as much chaos for himself at times as anyone on this team.

There's no way in hell you can't look at the goaltending as a problem when you're giving up 4 or more goals in 5 out of 9 of your starts thus far. It doesn't mean that goaltending has been the only problem, it doesn't mean we should put Osgood in, nor does it mean that Howard's been utterly terrible. But he's been nowhere near good enough. Not even close. You can't give up so many goals early, many of them stoppable if not blatantly soft, and expect the team to rally around him and play their best hockey. Osgood was a rock the last two post-seasons; he was as steady as they come. There's no way in hell you can look at Howard's post-season so far and say the same. Howard hasn't given this team a chance to relax and get their game together far too often. That's just not going to cut it, no matter how well he plays the rest of the game.

And then there's last year...

Babcock on Osgood last year after the playoffs: "Despite the loss, Red Wings coach Mike Babcock couldn't contain his praise for the veteran goalie. "I think just in the playoffs in general he was excellent for us," Babcock said. "(He) gave us a chance. You know, along the way in the playoffs this year (was) much different than last year. We never were always firing on all cylinders. We always had people missing. And Ozzie was one of our strengths, to say the least, all playoff long. I think he deserves a lot of credit. His numbers speaks for himself, he's done a great job." ( http://redwings.nhl....s.htm?id=466559 )

And as Babcock says, the numbers tell quite a story here...

Chris Osgood

2007-2008 Playoff Stats
GP: 19
Record: 14-4
SO: 3
SA: 430
GA: 30
SV%: .930
GAA: 1.55

2008-2009 Playoff Stats
GP: 23 Record: 15-8
SO: 2
GA: 47
SA: 637
SV%: .926
GAA: 2.01

Jimmy Howard

2009-2010 Playoff Stats
GP: 9
Record: 4-5
SO: 1
GA: 26
SA: 293
SV%: .911
GAA: 2.92

I highly doubt anybody is taking away from Osgood's recent past performances, so not much need to divulge into numbers there saying one goalie is better than the other.

Presently though, it is Howard's job and he has not been the problem/main problem on this team in losses (sans Phoenix game 4 perhaps) and we're basically smacking the few upside the head who think Osgood should be starting next game. Not because of Osgood, of course he is capable, but because Howard really hasn't done much to justify yanking him to the bench.

[KonstantAdvisor]

this is what I'm sayin... I mean, who thought we were gonna win the cup at the beginning of this year anyways?

sure It'll be nice if we win the cup, but I think in the long run, experience for the guy who's supposed to be our next franchise goaltender (already showing tons of promise) is pretty important

that and... well, nof****** way ozzie's gonna take us to the cup! lol! youf***inretardedorwut???

edit: yes (27 votes [10.55%])

here's a new stat for all of your brainholes!... approximately 10.55% of this message board is beyond retarded

I voted no, just because I think Howard should start Game 3. If Howard goes 4-6 and the Wings go 0-3 in the series, that is a perfect reason to start Osgood for Game 4. I don't know that Babcock will make that call, but anyone judging Osgood to be 'washed up' or lacking during this past season, through the injuries to the rest of the team, is probably just overlooking how well he did in comparison to Howard. I've made that point before. Osgood still handles the puck like a sixth skater on dump-ins and many teams would love to have him (15 wins, 2 assists in 09 playoffs).

I think a lot of the reason I want Howard in the net is because I believe he is going to win Game 3.

[55fan]

LOL at the fact that at least one of the votes to put Ozzie in is from a Sharks fan!

[eva unit zero]

Eva: You have impossibly high expectations for goaltenders. You expect perfection, and that is unreasonable. Howard put up an excellent performance last night. No goalie in this year's playoffs would have done better, in all likelihood. No goalie---indeed, no human---is perfect.

Perhaps your expectation of perfection is the reason you're so darned negative about most Red Wings-related matters. It is puzzling to me that Jiri Hudler is the most notable exception to your general negativity. Why is this? Is he perfect somehow? Or are your expectations for him simply more realistic than those you hold for the rest of the team?

1) I don't have impossibly high expectations for a goalie. I expect a goalie to make the stops he is supposed to make. Howard did that on most occasions during the regular season after he managed to improve his rebound control from the first couple of months. Ozzie was having a decent start to the season, not great but decent, but then Howie took off while Ozzie was out with the flu and Ozzie never managed to shake the rust when he came back as Howie's backup.

2) I don't think Hudler is perfect. I am sick of that s***. I think Hudler is a top-line caliber forward who is an elite-level playmaker, has a good shot, is better than average defensively, and is an above-average skater who could use some improvement in his speed. Perfect? Hardly. I would rate him slightly above Filppula overall, with a different skill set. If I had to pick one for the Wings, it would be Hudler because Flip's primary advantages are speed, faceoffs, and defense, and we have guys like Helm, Abby, Miller, Eaves, Cleary, not to mention Z and Dats who can cover that stuff but Flip doesn't have the playmaking or finishing skill Hudler does. Ideally, both on the team because both have chemistry together, and both have shown chemistry with Dats, Z, and Franzen. That's your top five forwards all having shown the ability to interchange on lines. That's one of the major reasons I wanted Hudler back-plug it in however you want, you have two highly skilled scoring lines with players who have proven chemistry together. And BTW, yes, that does mean I feel Flip is a top-line caliber forward.

3) I fully support Jimmy Howard, and have supported him since we drafted him. I have supported him through all the Larsson/McCollum hype and was against the "Trade Howard, we don't need him" posts that were showing up on LGW this past summer. Howard did put up an excellent performance in game 2. Didn't I say that before? Anyway, you could make 50 saves on 51 shots, but if the 51st is a glove save where you toss the puck towards your defenseman and instead it's to a forechecker who immediately dumps it in the net with 15 seconds to go, how much of a factor was your performance in the loss?. How many Wings fans blame Osgood for the 1994 series loss, even though his goaltending opposite the sieve Essensa was the only reason that series went past five games?
21 year old rookie Osgood, who was playing in his 97th pro game at any level and made a mistake, and the entire series was laid at his feet despite the fact he was one of if not the best player on the team in that series. Osgood gave up 12 goals in five starts, while Essensa gave up 9 in two. Osgood was great for the Wings in 94, yet is blamed for the loss. I don't blame Howard for the loss, nor would I blame him for a series loss because the Sharks have so far been the better team, but Howard giving up weak goals at bad times certainly does not help matters. And I am certainly less forgiving of a 26 year old goalie in his 5th pro year who has had the opportunity to learn from a multiple-Cup-winning goalie all year than I am of a 21 year old whose partners have been All-Star goalies with no real experience under late-round playoff pressure.

4) Osgood's regular season performance is what everyone is concerned about. I will say this, and then end my post: The real concern everyone has been having about Howard is that most of his games have been worse than Osgood's regular season performance over the past two years. So even if Ozzie shows up rusty and giving up a bad goal and 3 goals on the night, that's an upgrade over what Howard has shown most nights. If Ozzie "flips the switch", then it's go time.

[gcom007]

I highly doubt anybody is taking away from Osgood's recent past performances, so not much need to divulge into numbers there saying one goalie is better than the other.

Presently though, it is Howard's job and he has not been the problem/main problem on this team in losses (sans Phoenix game 4 perhaps) and we're basically smacking the few upside the head who think Osgood should be starting next game. Not because of Osgood, of course he is capable, but because Howard really hasn't done much to justify yanking him to the bench.

There have definitely been people dropping the cliche of Osgood getting by on stacked teams. It's typical BS Osgood analysis around here. When Osgood plays well, it's because of stacked teams. When anyone else struggles, it's the team's fault. Meanwhile, in the regular season, when the team plays poorly, it's because they're not confident in Osgood to make the save. Then someone else comes in and plays well (and perhaps the team gets a wake up call and picks up their game too...) and suddenly the teams playing better because the goalie's giving them confidence.

And that does bring me to a point about Howard again. If we're going to go with the idea that strong play from a goalie makes a team play better with more confidence, and then that weak play makes a team play worse with less confidence, you've got to question how Howard's play in the post-season is influencing this team. And while I'd agree that he certainly hasn't been the only problem, he's most certainly not been a strength for us the majority of the time thus far.

He's struggled to hold leads and oftentimes given up the leads early. On multiple occasions he's surrendered the lead/let the other team tie it up merely moments after we tied it up/took the lead. And that boils down to the one thing I very much agree with Eva on: Howard's timing for giving up goals has been terrible, and far too often these goals are either stoppable or blatantly soft.

Here is a stat that to me is fairly stunning: Howard's given up goals in pairs (or more...) just a few moments or less apart, in 6 out of 9 games.

While the circumstances are obviously different given how much Osgood's played this year, if this were 2008 and Howard started and played as he has this year, he absolutely would have been pulled by now. The biggest reason we pulled Hasek is because he kept giving up goals in pairs, surrendering leads, and generally not stopping the puck at the worst times. Howard's absolutely had the same issue, and for as well as he's played at times (and bear in mind, I gave him a ton of credit for his Game 2 recovery and don't hold those 3rd and 4th goals against him), he's also played downright poorly at others.

As I've said all along and all season, I like Jim Howard a lot and I'm very happy for all he's done this year and I think he's got a lot of potential if he keeps his head straight and continues to improve on his fundamentals. But at the end of the day, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything about the post-season: he hasn't been good enough, not even close. If Osgood were in game shape, I think Howard would have and probably should have been out in the first round. Far too often he has not played well enough to allow this team to get any kind of momentum or swagger going. When you're constantly giving up goals in pairs, giving up leads early, giving up leads or ties through the game, you don't give your team any chance to get going.

Again, I'm not saying it's all his fault by any means, but you've got to sugarcoat it and some to say that he hasn't been a glaring weakness in the post-season far too often. And to suggest that he isn't helping the team play better is no stretch either. And while I get that it's real hard to put Osgood in at this point for other reasons, and while I get that Howard's finished games better than he started at times, it doesn't change the fact that we've lost more games than we've won and Howard's most certainly one of the reasons that is the case.

So while it's not so cut and dry for me, I certainly understand why many are ready to yank Howard and see if Osgood can get it done again. This isn't just slappy's on the forum. It's the radio hosts, it's the journalists, and it's not a brand new suggestion after game 4. While I get that Howard is a rookie and I'm not going to hold this against him in the future, I don't think anyone is being honest if they suggest that Howard hasn't been incredibly disappointing in the post-season so far. The whole reason we went with Howard over a 3-time Cup winner down the stretch is because he played so great, at times looking utterly dominant while putting on a one man show. He absolutely has not played anywhere close to that level in the post-season.

How can you really expect people to be happy about that?

[SouthernWingsFan]

K...

I can play numbers too and spin them the way I want to as well. Just look at the percentages of this poll.

Which probably suggests that Howard's play has not been the main problem and placing Osgood over him probably might not have changed all that much if all things relatively stayed the same these past 2 games. It's pretty damned hard to stop pucks every time when you're left out to dry on a 5-on-3 or on a 3-on-1. Whether you are Osgood or Howard. It's not his fault when a stick of his teammate's breaks leading to a rush or the referees decide to just be totally incompetent for nearly the entire game.

Regardless of how numbers and stats are thrown out in any scenario, it doesn't change that Howard hasn't done anything to strongly consider getting yanked to the bench.

[HockeyCoach13]

NOW ITS TIME

[Dano33]

NOW ITS TIME

Ozzie doesn't dig you out of a 3 game hole, plain and simple. Howard sucked, there's no arguing that, but the Wings are playing like individuals and not a team. If they remember to play like they did near the end of the season, they still have a slight chance.

[VikingMark]

I want Ozzy to start game 4, and win 4 straight.

[HockeyCoach13]

I want Ozzy to start game 4, and win 4 straight.

we have a better chance with ozzy rather than howard who cant save a beach ball from going in the net.

[kook_10]

Just like many things and people with this team, Osgood is an idea whose time has passed. Let Howie lie in his bed. Besides throwing Ozzie into this mess would be one s***ty reward. He deserves better - let him have his victory lap in the rotation next season. Then its out to pasture with the rest.



*grammar

Edited by kook_10, 04 May 2010 - 10:06 PM.

[chaosizme]

I'm a big Howard fan, but it's time to put the Oz in. Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

[SouthernWingsFan]

Could be time now, but it's not really going to matter. This series and the season is all but over.

[shoe]

<br />Just like many things and people with this team, Osgood is an idea whose time is past.  Let Howie lie in his bed.  Besides throwing Ozzie into this mess would be one s***ty reward.  He deserves better - let him have his victory lap in the rotation next season.  Then its out to pasture with the rest.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

well said let Howard learn, no point now and your right would be a crappy reward.

[Carman]

Put Osbad in game 4 so we can blame it on him. He's always been awful and would be the perfect way for him to end his s*** career.

[dirtydangles]

I'm a big Howard fan, but it's time to put the Oz in. Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

I totally agree. 1st and 3rd goals totally his fault. he needs to step aside and take it as a learning experience. i mean, he wont lose 4 games of the series at least. Ozzie will get a small chance to come up clutch even through hes cold, i want to see a wall, and i kinda think it will happen.
I love howard, and support him totally, but its not going to be great for him to come in after the last game, i see him being more nervous not to be swept and not letting it roll off his back.

[gcom007]

Put Osbad in game 4 so we can blame it on him. He's always been awful and would be the perfect way for him to end his s*** career.

He's signed next year. You better believe Babcock will give him more of a chance, as opposed to no chance this year, to be the number one next year...

Howard's now let in as many goals as Osgood did on the entire '98 Cup run...

I don't know if you take a chance on Osgood now or not, but I know there's no way we're going anywhere with Howard this season. Even if we win this series by some miracle, Howard's not playing well enough to get it done.

The part of me thats desperate says "DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!" especially after this game, but who am I kidding? It's unlikely to help.

But if being down 3-0 isn't a desperate time, I don't know what is...

[Carman]

Howard's now let in as many goals as Osgood did on the entire '98 Cup run...

That's completely fair. Not like Osgood played in front of a great team or anything.

[Raptor1116]

That's completely fair. Not like Osgood played in front of a great team or anything.

And how many Games did Ozzie play in that cup run compared to the 10 Howard has played this year?

'98 Ozzie played in 22 games.
'10 Howard has played in 10 games.

Edited by Raptor1116, 04 May 2010 - 10:18 PM.