90 replies to this topic

[TheSupafly]

Hahaha. Yeah right. If the shoe were on the other foot you'd have the same damn complaints. Only difference is that we Wings fans don't care enough to go on other team's boards.

Don't forget that you wings fans,

A) Have a TON more fans of your team in general

B) Have a team that's been around since the NHL's inception, and even before that, thus allowing "A" to happen

Your boards have a lot more traffic and a lot more discussions as a result. Your need to go to another team's boards is way less than say someone like me.



Forgive me for the string of posts that are coming, I'm not very good at internet stuff and things so I have yet to master the responding to multiple posts with quotes in only one post.

[YMHC]

funny, but I bet this was you

[TheSupafly]

Wings would be up 2-0 if it wasn't for the refs. This is not a different sharks team.

This is a very different Sharks team. At the beginning of the season there were 9 different names on the roster, and the number has only gone up since then. As a result the team got thinner on D, deeper at forward, better in the faceoff circle (do NOT make the mistake of underestimating the importance of this), and tougher/grittier in general.

As a fellow fan of a puck possession team, I know you MUST understand how significant the acquisitions of Malhotra and Nichol were. The importance of getting the puck on the draw vs the wings is magnified by how good you guys are with the puck. Keeping the puck off the Wings' sticks is paramount to the success of the Sharks.

The Sharks are not as fast as they have been, but they sure are tougher along the boards and in front of the net...areas that they were weak in the past.

Would the wings be up 2-0 if not for the refs? Hard to say. You need to convert on the chances you get/earn. If you asked your team why it was down 2-0, do you think they'd blame the reffing? Do you think they'd even be thinking that? I'd guess they'd be more concerned with trying to not take those penalties or do anything close to even give the refs that option. They'd probably point to their lack of execution on special teams in game 1. They'd point to their lack of success in the faceoff circle in game 2. I believe Babcock said as much in his postgame interview.

It's not time to panic yet for the Wings. You have an immensely talented team. Both games were very close. The series shifts to the Joe now...I think we both know the history these two teams have in that building. If I were a Wings fan, I would be confident that my team can come home and win two games. As a Sharks fan, I'm confident that my team can earn at least a split in Detroit and come back to SJ still in control of the series. As a hockey fan, I'm excited to watch another close game between two great teams.

Looking forward to Tuesday.

funny, but I bet this was you

I remember the first time I saw that. Painful to watch. Pathetic really. Everyone could pick out an embarrassing fan of their own team...unfortunately ours ended up broadcasting his very mature gesticulations to the internet, and we all know how that usually turns out.

funny, but I bet this was you

I remember the first time I saw that. Painful to watch. Pathetic really. Everyone could pick out an embarrassing fan of their own team...unfortunately ours ended up broadcasting his very mature gesticulations to the internet, and we all know how that usually turns out.


Sorry for that double post...didn't realize it tacked a 2nd reply on like that. Nice feature!

Edited by TheSupafly, 03 May 2010 - 02:10 AM.

[55fan]

TSN had a bit during intermission about diving and how more Canadians have been called for diving than any other group this year.

[TheSupafly]

I disagree. First of all, they have better role players, Malhotra. Second, Pavelski is playing great. Props to him. They still have a threat in the Jumbo Joe, and Heatley is always a threat. They are more physical also. They are a better team than last time we played them and they have a great coach.

Don't forget Nichol who has been contributing very valuable minutes, as well as Couture playing some big minutes as well. Even the baby line with McGinn and Helminen have been logging some decent ice time. The Sharks' depth at forward has allowed them to mix and match pieces, like moving Marleau down with Mitchell and Malhotra, or moving Couture or Mitchell up with Thornton and Heatley. When Heater or Patty miss a game, the team doesn't really miss a beat like it would have in years past. That flexibility makes it difficult for Detroit to match up their D. Who do you play your best D pairing against? That plus Pavelski's line being on fire makes it very tough...especially with having to make the first change. In Detroit, it will be easier for them to manage being at home.

I'm with you though stuck in socal, this team is indeed different.

[titanium2]

TSN had a bit during intermission about diving and how more Canadians have been called for diving than any other group this year.

TSN aired that??? Canada's channel??? Wowww.

But they should be excused from diving because "hockey is all they have." Just quoting some of the posts after the gold medal game.

[Tommy_Like_Wingy]

The diving is sad but then again we aren't exactly innocent with Draper on the ice either. The officiating has been awful both games so far, the Sharks are just capitalizing when the calls go their way. We need to do the same.

[Weaksauce]

Watching this dive-fest of a series, I can honestly say that this is not the sport I fell in love with 30 years ago.

To go beyond tolerating this behavior by awarding penalties for it is beyond belief. If I wanted to watch people flail around for incidental contact to draw penalties, I'd watch soccer.

[Grypho]

I was going to wait until tomorrow, to let a lot of the understandable steam let off some, but I do want to chime in on this one now, because it is bothering me.

There were a couple of bulls*** calls, and several highly questionable ones that I saw tonight -- more against the Wings, but certainly not all. Same with non-calls. Fans in general tend to focus ONLY on what hurts or helps their own team, habitually blanking out or rationalizing away most of the rest. It's the "my child is the darling who can do no wrong" syndrome, seen in all sports, and I don't think any team's fans are immune. If your team is being more heavily penalized, it's not because they are weighing in more heavily with penalties. It must be a combination of bad reffing and rat fink ******* who need to learn how to skate (and pay no attention to that twisting, pulling stick between his legs).

My observations (more reactions to what I've seen posted) about the game:

1) In my view, Howard was stellar. I kept saying that aloud during the game, remarking on it as he stopped shot after shot of what I thought were going to be sure goals by the Sharks. So when I saw some here blaming Howard, even for the way the last two goals went in, I was more than a little stunned. Eyes wide in disbelief stunned, actually, because I thought Howard was better than Nabokov in game 2, all other things considered.

2) I'll start #2 by way of preface: For years I rooted for the Sharks when they had an ENORMOUS discipline problem. Not with just taking penalties, but with everything, from needless penalties to giveaways to constant off-sides and icing calls. Failure to shoot the puck and lack of discipline was something we just had to live with. AND acknowledge. For years.

Many Wings fans, on the other hand, have become utterly spoiled, I think. You all have had the benefit of one of THE MOST DISCIPLINED TEAMS in the NHL. So disciplined, in fact, that it actually surprises many of you, shocks you even to the point of what appears to me to be outright denial, when your team is UNCHARACTERISTICALLY undisciplined -- as they were, not just this last game, but both games 1 & 2. I found it surprising that there were very few posters who would dare even bring up lack of discipline as a factor in either loss. But it did factor in! It wasn't, contrary to the mantra, "just a string of total bulls*** phantom calls".

I watched your series against the Coyotes, and didn't really see a discipline breakdown by Detroit. The Wings were highly disciplined in that entire series, I thought, and in a way that they have not been thus far in this one. Why? There is only one area I see where the Wings, both regular season and now post season, have not been disciplined, and that's with too many men on the ice, the (very legitimate) call that was made numerous times in the regular season, and now one that cost your team badly needed strength on the last minute push in Game 2.

Now before continuing, let me say that there is no doubt in my mind that Setoguchi embellished in game one, and that the non-call for what should have been a four minute high sticking call against him was very real, very serious, and did very possibly cost the Wings that game. I didn't see it at first, but in retrospect I can now see it clearly. Even then, I perceive that something much bigger than that particular non-call is now working against the Wings, to wit:

It appeared to me, on the surface at least, that the Wings, for whatever reason, were playing with the mindset, one that says, in essence, "This is the playoffs, where things are rough and often ugly, and the refs should just put their whistles in their pockets and let the teams bash it all out with impunity." For whatever reason(s), that didn't happen, and it doesn't look as if it's going to happen either, given there were two completely different sets of refs for both games 1 & 2. But the Wings seemed to keep on playing as if that is what should happen. Almost as if they were insisting, by their play, that the refs just "get desensitized already, and put thosef****** whistles away."

In other words, it looked to me, very early on, like the Wings, not the Sharks, had put the refs on notice, in a way that said, "Notice us. Notice our penalties. Look for them and get used to them, the kind we don't think should be called on either team, because here they come."

So tell me, am I totally out to lunch, imagining things that have no basis in reality? Because that is how it appeared to me.

[SouthernWingsFan]

Can do that all you want, I don't give a damn if we sound bitter.

You guys are diving out of your rear ends, and the last game was one of the worst officiated games I have seen in my life in any sport. Consider your team very fortunate to be up 2-0 with the referees playing a much, much larger role than necessary to facilitate that lead.

[russianswede919293]

So tell me, am I totally out to lunch, imagining things that have no basis in reality? Because that is how it appeared to me.

I think you have a very valid point.

The Phoenix series was so physical and the Refs IMO mostly did let them play. Guys were running people hard into the boards.

That is not the way this one is being called. The slightest hint of infraction is going to the box.

Detroit still thinks they are playing Phoenix...Match their muscle hit them hard, our talent wins out because they don't have any

The Sharks have a lot of talent, and Detroit is playing like they still think its the Phoenix series.

That being said. Nabokov and Setogucci both put on a clinic at the diving pool. Early on the Sharks seem to have realized it was a whistle fest and IMO have been essentially baiting the refs into making calls by a few guys over-embelishing the results of hits.

Detroit however needs to realize that this is how the series is being called and adjust accordingly. They need to get more back to a game of talent and less to a game of grinding...The Sharks are not the Coyotes.

[Grypho]

Early on the Sharks seem to have realized it was a whistle fest and IMO have been essentially baiting the refs into making calls by a few guys over-embelishing the results of hits.

I agree, and it's an extension of part of the Sharks' game play M.O. (drawing as many penalties as possible for better scoring chances) throughout the regular season. It didn't work that well against the Wings in the regular season, who beat us in three out of four games, but that also meant that there was no lesson learned by the Wings either in that regard.

For the other teams, the ones against whom it did work, the strategy was simple. The Sharks would say damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, and crash the net. It didn't matter if they had a real scoring chance or not. They just had to get their opponents believing that they did, as they'd swarm in and position themselves just close and dangerous enough to put the other team into a defensive frenzy, which in turn disrupts team rhythm and communication, and causes them, individually, to make stupid mistakes, like slashing, hooking, holding, tripping, whatever. The Sharks would then draw a penalty, as desire/planned, and try to capitalize on that. And they were very effective at it, as they constantly traded the illusion of a scoring chance for a real one with a man advantage.

It didn't work as well in our opening series against the Avs, because the Avs are very young, speedy, and were actually able to turn the tables from the start, getting the jump on the Sharks by doing essentially the same thing to the Sharks. What a rush that was. Scary. Fortunately for the Sharks, they were able to shake it off, acknowledge it, and adjust in time to turn it around. They even publicly announced that they had "solved" it, putting everyone on notice that they were going to be faster at everything, including speed through the neutral zone. And they were. But that same game plan pulled on us nearly killed us early on, because it really was starting to make us undisciplined.

Enter Round 2, and SI's take on the last game:

(EXCERPTS)
...they made the Red Wings uncomfortable...More than anything..., they forced the Red Wings to play defense...In short, they stayed aggressive.

...It isn't often that we see the Wings hanging on, but that is the sense I got. The Sharks forced the Wings to chase the game and then dictated the style, pace and flow. That is never easy to do against the Wings and isn't something the Sharks have a great history of doing.

Read the Full Article

And he's absolutely right.

Another issue, one that the Sharks were facing, had to do with face offs. Watching Game 1, I thought we were piss poor, wondering what the f*** happened to the team? We have no less than three of the top 15 faceoff guys in the NHL, with Malhotra at the top (training videos are made using him as the model). In this last game (as noted by many here at LGW), we absolutely dominated in faceoffs. The Wings couldn't buy one. There's no question in my mind that Mclellan used the team's warmup and rest time to force an increased focus on the internal faceoff competition already ongoing with the Sharks. And it shows in just how nervous the faceoff officials are, given how many players (from both teams) are hopped up and getting routinely kicked out of the faceoff circles -- circles more laden with testosterone than I have EVER seen before in the playoffs. Zetterberg was 0-7 in the first period, That...just...does..not...happen. Do I think that will play out the same way in Game 3? No. I'm sure the Wings are adjusting to that as well.

Also, it's unavoidable that officiating is part of the game. It's true that the NHL has had a kind of unwritten tradition of looser calls in the playoffs, but usually not so much until the final two rounds, generally letting only the top teams bash their way to the Cup. BUT...IF the refs were NOT making calls, I am sure that the penalty-drawing-minded Sharks would sense that just quickly as well, as they would be forced to adjust accordingly there as well. But as we're seeing, that's not the case. The refs clearly are making calls, and for that the Wings do need to (and I am quite sure will), adjust.

[FinWing]

I respect-ED the referees... oh wait, no I didn't.

[Broken 16]

I was going to wait until tomorrow, to let a lot of the understandable steam let off some, but I do want to chime in on this one now, because it is bothering me.

There were a couple of bulls*** calls, and several highly questionable ones that I saw tonight -- more against the Wings, but certainly not all. Same with non-calls. Fans in general tend to focus ONLY on what hurts or helps their own team, habitually blanking out or rationalizing away most of the rest. It's the "my child is the darling who can do no wrong" syndrome, seen in all sports, and I don't think any team's fans are immune. If your team is being more heavily penalized, it's not because they are weighing in more heavily with penalties. It must be a combination of bad reffing and rat fink ******* who need to learn how to skate (and pay no attention to that twisting, pulling stick between his legs).

My observations (more reactions to what I've seen posted) about the game:

1) In my view, Howard was stellar. I kept saying that aloud during the game, remarking on it as he stopped shot after shot of what I thought were going to be sure goals by the Sharks. So when I saw some here blaming Howard, even for the way the last two goals went in, I was more than a little stunned. Eyes wide in disbelief stunned, actually, because I thought Howard was better than Nabokov in game 2, all other things considered.

2) I'll start #2 by way of preface: For years I rooted for the Sharks when they had an ENORMOUS discipline problem. Not with just taking penalties, but with everything, from needless penalties to giveaways to constant off-sides and icing calls. Failure to shoot the puck and lack of discipline was something we just had to live with. AND acknowledge. For years.

Many Wings fans, on the other hand, have become utterly spoiled, I think. You all have had the benefit of one of THE MOST DISCIPLINED TEAMS in the NHL. So disciplined, in fact, that it actually surprises many of you, shocks you even to the point of what appears to me to be outright denial, when your team is UNCHARACTERISTICALLY undisciplined -- as they were, not just this last game, but both games 1 & 2. I found it surprising that there were very few posters who would dare even bring up lack of discipline as a factor in either loss. But it did factor in! It wasn't, contrary to the mantra, "just a string of total bulls*** phantom calls".

I watched your series against the Coyotes, and didn't really see a discipline breakdown by Detroit. The Wings were highly disciplined in that entire series, I thought, and in a way that they have not been thus far in this one. Why? There is only one area I see where the Wings, both regular season and now post season, have not been disciplined, and that's with too many men on the ice, the (very legitimate) call that was made numerous times in the regular season, and now one that cost your team badly needed strength on the last minute push in Game 2.

Now before continuing, let me say that there is no doubt in my mind that Setoguchi embellished in game one, and that the non-call for what should have been a four minute high sticking call against him was very real, very serious, and did very possibly cost the Wings that game. I didn't see it at first, but in retrospect I can now see it clearly. Even then, I perceive that something much bigger than that particular non-call is now working against the Wings, to wit:

It appeared to me, on the surface at least, that the Wings, for whatever reason, were playing with the mindset, one that says, in essence, "This is the playoffs, where things are rough and often ugly, and the refs should just put their whistles in their pockets and let the teams bash it all out with impunity." For whatever reason(s), that didn't happen, and it doesn't look as if it's going to happen either, given there were two completely different sets of refs for both games 1 & 2. But the Wings seemed to keep on playing as if that is what should happen. Almost as if they were insisting, by their play, that the refs just "get desensitized already, and put thosef****** whistles away."

In other words, it looked to me, very early on, like the Wings, not the Sharks, had put the refs on notice, in a way that said, "Notice us. Notice our penalties. Look for them and get used to them, the kind we don't think should be called on either team, because here they come."

So tell me, am I totally out to lunch, imagining things that have no basis in reality? Because that is how it appeared to me.

When the Sharks had pressure, any tough defensive play in the defensive zone by the Wings was whistled for a penalty because the Sharks routinely folded like a tent and acted like they had been shot. On the other hand... The Sharks are allowed to beat the f*** out of Wings players when they have pressure (Datsyuk with no helmet, being cross checked while he's laying on the ice, Boyle bear hugging Holmstrom and dragging him down to the ice, etc, etc).

Some teams are coached to fight for the puck, no matter what. Ignore obvious infractions and play through them to keep possession. Other teams are coached to fold up like a tent at the slightest contact.

The Sharks are exploiting the refs right now. The only people that should be embarrassed are the refs for allowing to Sharks to play them like a fiddle. There are many paths that will take you to the Finals. This is one of them and the Sharks are executing it perfectly. Kudo's to them, I guess.

Edited by Broken 16, 03 May 2010 - 08:28 AM.

[micah]

Glass houses, fellas. Though the officiating last night was as bad as I've ever seen, and mostly against the Wings, the sharks were not the only team diving last night. They were the only team for whom diving seemed to work, and that's frustrating, but what goes around comes around. sometimes we get the calls, sometimes we get the bounces.

I for one would like to see the Wings take the "lead by example" route in this. I'd like Babs to make it clear that any player who dives or embelishes, even just a little bit, will sit a game (reg season, natch). Take it seriously, and it will go away. Say "oh, it's part of the game" will destroy the game like it (among other things) has destroyed basketball.

[mmamolo]

The Darren Helm diving call in game 1 was ridiculous. I don't understand for the life of me how they can call that a dive and then refuse to call any of the coutnless 'embelleshing' antics the sharks have pulled. At the end of the day there were bad calls made on both teams (the bertuzzi goalie interference and holding and the Heatley goalie interference etc) but again it comes down to the how and when of the calls. Momentum changing calls kill anything and everything teams have built.

In all fairness, yes, Detroit absolutely deserved some of their penalities - as did the Sharks. But to have an extended 5-on-3 PP in both games 1 and 2 of a series of over a minute long is pretty rare (although the Kronwall penalty was deserved). I think the problem really lays in the fact that basicalyl no one watching the game could understand the bulk of the calls that were being made. So many of the calls were just so questionable and borderline that it made the officials look completely inexperienced.

As a wings fan, obviously, I foudn the officiating frustrating. The two Bertuzzi calls drove me absolutely insane because they were completely off the wall in my opinion. To make matters worse we have players embellishing all over the ice and the refs are buying into it - Nabokov and Setugichi being the two biggest culprets.

Finally, a discussion that has been coming up a lot as of late is the idea of refs 'evening' up calls for stats and discussion purposes. It's kind of funny that in a 4-3 game, with 4 odd minutes to go, the Wings are down a man, the refs decide to give Heatley and terrible goaltender interference call to negate the Sharks PP. Sure this marginally helps the Wings as they no longer have to kill the penalty but what it really did was get the refs out of the hot water of they put themselves into with the bogus Bertuzzi goatender interference from earlier in the game. Problem is the how and when of the call.

[Grypho]

The Sharks are exploiting the refs right now.

Well, both games have certainly been criticized for that. The good news is that Game 3, just like Game 2, will have a completely new set of refs. Will there be a trend? I hope not, regardless of anyone's take on the officiating in this series so far.

Incidentally, "Joe at Yahoo_", commenting on an article about the game Freep, gave the following assessment of the penalties that pretty much matched my own:

(Excerpted - cleaned up)
(1) D Slashing - Bertuzzi - valid in my opinion
(2) D Goaltender Interference - Abdelkader -- bogus call
(3) SJ Slashing - Heatley -- This one was legitimate
(4) D Cross check - Datsyuk -- hard to ignore that one.
(5) SJ Boarding - Marleau -- totally bogus
(6) D Goaltender Interference - Bertuzzi -- consistent with calls in the playoffs
(7) D Interference - Stuart -- shoves Nichol into the side of the net. Valid
(8) SJ Interference - Murray -- Tight call, but correct enough.
(9) D Holding - Bertuzzi -- From where the ref saw it but overall: bad call.
(10) D Slashing - Cleary --Chopped Blake's stick in half.. can't NOT call that.
(11) D Tripping - Filppula --Pushed Boyles skates out from under him. This is called 100% of the time.
(12) SJ Goaltender Interference - Heatley -- Completely bogus call, worse than the 1st both in the timing and severity.
(13) D Too many men on the ice - Bench -- Can't argue with it.

Detroit penalties: Valid calls: 7, Bogus calls: 2
San Jose penalties: Valid calls: 2, Bogus calls: 2

Anybody see this in a substantially different way?

EDIT: I know one call is missing, I'm too lazy to see which one and add it.

Edited by Grypho, 03 May 2010 - 09:01 AM.

[wmubronco420]

I disagree. First of all, they have better role players, Malhotra. Second, Pavelski is playing great. Props to him. They still have a threat in the Jumbo Joe, and Heatley is always a threat. They are more physical also. They are a better team than last time we played them and they have a great coach.

yea malhotra has really been the difference in the series./sarcasm

[tinistien]

ive never seen so much diving before in my whole life, and i was on the swim team in highschool.

[Datsyuk Fan]

(Excerpted - cleaned up)
(1) D Slashing - Bertuzzi - valid in my opinion
(2) D Goaltender Interference - Abdelkader -- bogus call
(3) SJ Slashing - Heatley -- This one was legitimate
(4) D Cross check - Datsyuk -- hard to ignore that one.
(5) SJ Boarding - Marleau -- totally bogus
(6) D Goaltender Interference - Bertuzzi -- consistent with calls in the playoffs
(7) D Interference - Stuart -- shoves Nichol into the side of the net. Valid
(8) SJ Interference - Murray -- Tight call, but correct enough.
(9) D Holding - Bertuzzi -- From where the ref saw it but overall: bad call.
(10) D Slashing - Cleary --Chopped Blake's stick in half.. can't NOT call that.
(11) D Tripping - Filppula --Pushed Boyles skates out from under him. This is called 100% of the time.
(12) SJ Goaltender Interference - Heatley -- Completely bogus call, worse than the 1st both in the timing and severity.
(13) D Too many men on the ice - Bench -- Can't argue with it.

Detroit penalties: Valid calls: 7, Bogus calls: 2
San Jose penalties: Valid calls: 2, Bogus calls: 2

Anybody see this in a substantially different way?

EDIT: I know one call is missing, I'm too lazy to see which one and add it.

(1) D Slashing - This was actually Howard; Bertuzzi just served the penalty. I didn't see it, but I heard it was a tap on the leg after being run into/snowed by the Sharks player. That kind of stuff happens all the time - Bogus
(2) D Goaltender Interference - I agree. Totally bogus. Nabby initiated contact, and it was outside the crease - Bogus
(3) SJ Slashing - Don't remember this one, so I'll agree - Legitimate
(4) D Cross check - Happens all the time in every game against Holmstrom and never gets called - Marginal
(5) SJ Boarding - I definitely agree - Bogus
(6) D Goaltender Interference - While it might be consistent with how they've been calling it, I don't agree with the call - Bogus
(7) D Interference - Agree, this one was valid (although I thought it was embellished too) - Legitimate
(8) SJ Interference - Don't remember this one - I'll call it marginal since he called it tight
(9) D Holding - Agree; horrible call. Along with the next one led to the 5-3 power play - Bogus
(9b) D Hooking - This is the missed one (on Kronwall) - legitimate
(10) D Slashing - Hard to not call this one since he broke the stick, but in my opinion, he was trying to play the puck - Legitimate/Marginal
(11) D Tripping - Don't remember this one, so I'll agree - Legitimate
(12) SJ Goaltender Interference - I'm not sure why it was worse than the first one, but I agree - Bogus
(13) D Too many men on the ice - Can't argue with it - Legitimate

So I get:

Detroit: Valid: 4-5, Marginal: 1-2, Bogus: 4
San Jose: Valid: 1, Marginal: 1, Bogus: 2

I also remember seeing an obvious tripping and interference call against the Sharks that were missed. The trip was during a Detroit power play, so it would have given us a 5 on 3 for about 30-60 seconds, I think.

Edit: I've also ignored all the diving, since that's apparently not a penalty anymore (except when Helm loses an edge, falls, and gets right back up and into the play).

Edited by Datsyuk Fan, 03 May 2010 - 09:47 AM.