mccrimmon

[elriqo28 2]

Honest question, Why not bring in Ken Hitchcock to take over McCrimmon's job? (or if we lose Maclean)

Good cop, bad cop might work.

there is a limit to 1 coach per staff with a name ending in cock.

[king_malice 17]

why not bring in Mike Keenan,when he was coaching always ran a great D system

[stevkrause 1,247]

why not bring in Mike Keenan,when he was coaching always ran a great D system

With all the history, I do not see how Keenan could ever come to Detroit, regardless of his ability...

there is a limit to 1 coach per staff with a name ending in cock.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Maybe neither Lebda, nor Ericsson where ever meant to be more than a #6/#7 Dman at the NHL level.

There's quite a few players whom are great at the AHL level, but are nothing special at the NHL level regardless who the coach is...Once again I find it amusing how many are quick to point fingers at the coaching staff when it's the player out on the ice making the bone-headed plays.

As much as I loved Gallant when he was a player - his stats as a coach in the NHL are nothing to rave about...Who's to say he's any better than what we've already got?...Babcock seems like a sharp guy; I'm certain he'd talk to Holland if he felt a change was needed with the assistant coaches.

Once again - when players don't develop at the pace they're supposed to, or take steps back, it's usually the coaches faults... and THIS is where the real problem lies...

Quick to point finger would be 10 games in, not 2+ season of OVERALL team defense decline... someone is not watching enough tape/adjusting properly and once again... that is a COACHING area.

Gallant did pretty good with a horrendous Columbus team and I'm not advocating having him replace Babs... I think he would be a great addition to our coaching staff...

[stevkrause 1,247]

So how exactly do you know how a certain player is supposed to progress?...Maybe there's a reason why Lebda went undrafted, and Ericsson was the very last pick in his draft year?...Maybe some players will never be as good as some fans would like to think, and blaming the coaching staff may be a way for some folks to vent, but for me I like to think outside the box, and look at the big picture; if McCrimmon was so bad - why was he hired by Detroit, and why is he still an employee with the Red Wings?

I'm fully aware of the teams issues these past few seasons; people forget that this squad is getting older, and is handicapped by the cap so Holland can't go out, and shop for what the team needs - be it on Dmen, or forwards...Our scoring isn't the same as it was just a few seasons ago, but are there any threads asking for Macleans head?

Our scoring was as good as could be expected with all the injuries and the MASS exodus of lost scorers from the year before, plus, they have remained relatively consistent with MacClean at the helm, wheras, they have went down the 2 years McCrimmon was handling the D... your logic is flawed and you know it...

Also, we don't know if he will remain employed, they could still make a change...

[stevkrause 1,247]

- man I love these retorts.

Then by your "logic" it was the coaches fault in Ottawa/Philly/TB/NYR/etc/etc that Alexander Daigle never became the hi-end elite scorer that everyone thought he was going to be at the NHL level...It too was the coaches fault that guys like Quincey, Kuznetsov, Wallin, Golubovsky, and Anders Ericcsson never developed into top 4 Dmen with the Red Wings - right?

Once again I chuckle at those whom think they know more than our management/coaching staff...Like I said - he's still an employee of the Detroit Red Wings; maybe there's more going on behind the scenes than what us fans/internet GMs would like to think.

And ONCE AGAIN, it would be different if this was a small sample group to take from - Daigle's fault was his work ethic... and that didn't change from place to place...

Quincy HAS become a top 4 d-man and so has Wallin, so.... the point is, they just didn't have room here with the other guys WE had in the system, so where are you going with this? that has nothing to do with their development here, if they weren't given a chance to play, it's players that ARE given a chance to play and step back that are the concern...

I never said I know more than the brass, but I know the game very well and have coached as well and can read player's body language when they're not confident in their system, and THAT is when the number of shots against go up... if he is still here at year's start, we will see from there, but once again... it is still not a certainty that he will not be replaced in the off season...

You seem to chalk a lot of those steps back in defense as coincidence and as LOGIC suggests, when something breaks, look for what has changed... well, you tell me what else has changed from 08?

[DEVILSWATERBOY 10]

I would approach Barry Smith to come back to the Wings

[stevkrause 1,247]

I would approach Barry Smith to come back to the Wings

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65297

I like this idea too, actually just started a thread about it the other day. I would like to see them shift MacClean back to D and either bring back Barry Smith or bring on Gerard Gallant for the offense...

[stevkrause 1,247]

My point was simply how you like to correlate a players success with the current coaching staff - "Once again - when players don't develop at the pace they're supposed to, or take steps back, it's usually the coaches faults... and THIS is where the real problem lies... ".....So since Quincey has developed into a solid Dman - should we go after Holland for keeping a over the hill Chelios on board?

Jesse Wallin never became a top 4 Dman - in fact he's retired...The guys I mentioned were all Red Wing Dmen prospects that were held in pretty high regard, and were at 1 time thought to have top 4 potential...They all washed out (except for Quincey), and I'm of the opinion that guys like Ericsson may fall into that category as well, and I wouldn't blame McCrimmon, or anyone else on our coaching staff for his lack of progress.

I'm of the opinion that guys like Ericsson, Rafalski, Lebda, Stuart, and even at times Lidstrom aren't being held accountable for their gaffes these past 2 years; we've see alot more mistakes in our own end of the ice, and personally I don't believe you can place the blame on McCrimmon for these guys bone-headed plays, poor coverage, and misreads.

If there's any blame to be placed on McCrimmon - it's for not sitting these guys on the bench, or press box for their poor play...I by no means feel McCrimmon is faultless here since he is part of the problem - however when ya look at our team as a whole, and then at our opponents - it's pretty obvious we aren't the "Top Dog" in this league as our opponents have closed the gap, and are now exposing the fact that we have Dmen that are now on our roster that wouldn't have been pre-cap era.

Right there - that IS a coaching issue... there's no other way around it... you're nitpicking at the development point and I DO think that is a HUGE part of it, but it's all of these things combined that make me refuse to believe that he is doing his job well, if it were just one of these, fine, he gets a pass, but he's dropping the ball in them all...

[stevkrause 1,247]

I wasn't nitpicking about the development issue, but was more or less pointing out that not all prospects are going to become top-notch Dmen at the NHL level, and guys like Ericsson may never become a top 6 Dman in this league regardless who his coach is...Holding McCrimmon responsible for Ericsson's lack of progress is unwarranted.

So tell me what would you do in this situation?...Be like Scotty Bowman, and sit half the Dmen on the bench for their screw-ups?

I've never been 1 to pass the buck; I've always felt the majority of the responsibility was on the players behalf to do their job, and yes when they mess up - the coaching staff is partially responsible...Like the old saying goes - it's always easier to blame, and then fire 1 coach than point the finger at, or trade several players.

Holding McCrimmon responsible for ALL of a players steps back in development IS unwarranted (and you're using ONE example in Ericsson, how about Lebda's MASSIVE steps back and Meech's steps back) but holding him partially responsible is NOT unwarranted... you then combine that with overall team defense declines (shots against, positioning, pairings, strategies, etc) and I'm sorry, those are not ALL coincidence...

[stevkrause 1,247]

I liken this to a handful of things...

1) Our best Dmen in Lidstrom, and Rafalski are starting to show their age (especially Nick), and aren't capable of what they able to do 4 plus years ago.

2) With the cap we're stuck with what we've got, and cannot go out, and buy Volchenkov, or whomever so we gotta play with what we have regardless how good, or bad they are...IMHO Lebda, nor Meech are/were anything more than #6/#7 Dmen, and chances are Ericsson, and Kindl will be the same...To me saying that they've taken steps back is a moot point because these guys never were seen as anything special, and wouldn't be on the team if it weren't for the cap.

3) Our very solid - yet prone to some gaffes 2nd pairing of Stuart/Kronwall will never be on par with our top pairing of Lidstrom/Rafalski - yet many here are quick to bash them...Now these 2 have alot of mileage left on them, and truth be told I'm mostly concerned with these 2 because they're gonna be our top pairing within a few years...Hopefully they continue to improve, and limit their mistakes in their own end.

4) Our competition has gotten much better these past few years; our beloved Red Wings now must compete at a more level playing field thanks to the cap...Teams also are now aware of our puck possession style, and how to defeat it.

I understand Dmen take more time to develope (on average), and I used to play alot of D so I have a fair understanding of the challenges these guys face when compared to their forward counterparts...That said I don't wish to come across as the broken record, but McCrimmon is only partially at fault here; he can only do so much to deter Rafalski making a blind pass to Lidstrom (who wasn't there) behind our own net, and he can do little to nothing when Ericsson jumps into the play in O.T....Why isn't Maclean, or Babcock getting roasted for the poor play of our forwards - such as Bertuzzi's penchant for blind passes?

Because Babcock and MacClean are not the variables... once again, when something breaks - look to what has changed. period.

I agree Lebda and Meech were probably never going to be anything more that #6/7 d-men... but whereas Lebda was a #5/6, now he doesn't even look like an NHL'er, let alone a #6/7, Ericsson has not been handled properly, Rafalski has NOT declined in ability - look at the Olympics, it was all mental gaffes here and that as well, can come back to coaching, Nick is still Nick f'in Lidstrom (but Nick and Raffi shouldn't have been paired together anyway all season... another coaching area)

As for MacClean taking heat over the offense, there was almost a 50% turn over on the forwards from 08... the defense core returning was almost EXACTLY the same as the 08 cup team... poor comparison....

when something breaks - look to what has changed

[stevkrause 1,247]

I think what's changed most is the fact that our team as a whole is relying upon a fair number of new faces to play significant minutes - be it on defence, or at the forward position.

Personally I haven't seen any major improvement in putting in Ericsson over Lebda; I felt the Lebda/Lilja combo had worked better, but since I'm not the coach, nor am I on the Red Wings payroll I'm sure they have their reasons for playing Ericsson instead of Lebda which I know nothing of.

Injuries had been our #1 issue this year, and I'm fairly certain many of our guys weren't 100% going into the playoffs...Be it physical, or mental fatigue I cannot blame our woes solely upon McCrimmon.

So what's wrong with the Lidstrom/Rafalski pairing? Who would you rather see him paired with?...To me Lidstrom has slowed down quite a bit these past few years; no way is he in the same form that he was 4 years ago...I'm of the opinion that Rafalski has a few more years left in the tank; he's taking a beating these past few years, and is targeted every time he has the puck which just so happens to lead to his coughing it up at the most crucial of times.

Dunno what to say to your "handling of Ericsson"; it's not like he's another Doughty in the rough...To me he's a great player at the AHL level, but has trouble at the NHL level...Dunno if I'd be quick to blame the coaching staff on his lack of improvement since he never was considered anything special...His mistakes are of the rookie variety, and much of it must be on his shoulders instead of McCrimmon's.

Ericsson>Meech>Janik>Kindl>a bear on skates on skates>a wacky-waving-inflatable-flailing-arm-tubeman>Lebda - just because Lebda was decent in 08, he was horrible the last two years and should have been flat out waived this year...

I agree the turnover on the roster is the single greatest impact on the team, but even last year WITH Hossa and all the same pieces from '08 otherwise, our team defense took a drastic decline... this is why I think one of the main problem lies on McCrimmon, not solely and I never said it was 100% his fault, however, he is not doing his job as well as he could with what he is given and THAT is why I think he should be replaced. - he is not even meeting expectations, let alone surpassing them.

Also, I think Ericsson still VERY much needs to be worked on with positioning and defensive placement, as he is still fairly green at the position, now, where most defensemen have this worked out by the time they hit the NHL level, he did not play D his whole life and needs someone to develop him as such (I think Fraser did a very good job in the AHL and we may even want to consider promoting him to D coach of the big club)

As for the pairings, I think you should balance your strengths and weaknesses

Lidstrom-Kronwall

Stuart-Rafalski

Ericsson-Lilja

We can go on, and on over who's to blame for what...Guess we'll have to agree that we disagree on certain points

Agreed.

Edited May 19, 2010 by stevkrause

[kook_10 1,705]

Maybe a contributing factor could be that Lids and Raffi aren't as good at teaching as their own mentors were. Lids had Coffey, Fetisov, Murphy, McCrimmon, Chiasson, played along Vladdy and Cheli. Raffi had Stevens, Niedermayer, Daneyko. Ericsson/Lebda/Meech may need more hand holding than they can provide. It takes a village to raise those idiots.

Edited May 19, 2010 by kook_10

[stevkrause 1,247]

I can live with those D pairings; they look good to me - however try convincing McCrimmon

As for replacing McCrimmon with Fraser - I'm all for it if he gets the most outta his Dmen in the big club in Detroit...My only concern though would be how would you explain a guy like Kindl, and his reported "deer in the headlights" play in his own end while under the tutorlidge (sp) of Fraser?

Kindl's +/- has pretty drastically improved in his 3 years in GR, also, I caught a few GR games online and one in person this year and Kindl looked VERY good positionally and talent wise... but the verdict is still out on Kindl (and Ericsson too)

Maybe a contributing factor could be that Lids and Raffi aren't as good at teaching as their own mentors were. Lids had Coffey, Fetisov, Murphy, McCrimmon, Chiasson, played along Vladdy and Cheli. Raffi had Stevens, Niedermayer, Daneyko. Ericsson/Lebda/Meech may need more hand holding than they can provide. It takes a village to raise those idiots.

I think Nick is about the best mentor a player could have... but I agree, they do need to learn from playing alongside mentors...

[stevkrause 1,247]

I got the impression from reading many posts here that Kindl has had some issues in his own end of the ice, and his coverage really hasn't improved much.

You'd think Nick Lidstrom would make a great mentor, and help guide the young guys, but then again the same may have been thought about Gretzky when he coached the Yotes...I know - different players, and different positions, but yet we're assuming what Nick is capable of - yet since none of us are there in person - it's kinda hard to say what exactly takes place.

He did have a ton of issues in his own end a couple years ago and he still isn't exactly NHL ready, but he has taken leaps and bounds from where he was 3 years ago... if(and that's a HUGE IF) he keeps progressing at the rate he has been, he will be a bigger, faster Rafalski...

Mentor and coach are 2 different things though, I think Nick has had a GREAT influence and mentor on many players through our system, unfortunately, a couple of them had tragic ends to their careers (Vladdy, Fisher), but otherwise, I think he has had a huge impact on Kronwall as well... I would like to see Ericsson paired with him every so often too, I think it could have a great impact

EDIT - Note, I know Vladdy and Nick came in at the same time and he wasn't technically a mentor, but one can still impact a guy without mentoring him, just by playing alongside them

Edited May 19, 2010 by stevkrause

[kook_10 1,705]

He did have a ton of issues in his own end a couple years ago and he still isn't exactly NHL ready, but he has taken leaps and bounds from where he was 3 years ago... if(and that's a HUGE IF) he keeps progressing at the rate he has been, he will be a bigger, faster Rafalski...

Mentor and coach are 2 different things though, I think Nick has had a GREAT influence and mentor on many players through our system, unfortunately, a couple of them had tragic ends to their careers (Vladdy, Fisher), but otherwise, I think he has had a huge impact on Kronwall as well... I would like to see Ericsson paired with him every so often too, I think it could have a great impact

...but the benefit of having more good people to learn from like Nick did is that these guys can find their own game by incorporating lessons from a variety of players' styles. To me the jury is out on Meech, but Lebda and Ericsson are clearly not the sharpest knives in the drawer. For that reason, Lids may not be able to fully impart his most valuable assets unto them - his hockey smarts. It's like Gretzky trying to teach McSorley poise and vision - the teacher and student aren't ideally compatible. If E can pick up any smarts from Lids though its a good thing, but he still needs some big body mentoring too because he will never be the best player he can be if he tries to only play Nick's game. That is where Beast and/or Kenny should step in and get him some help to round out the rest of his game.

I feel like Meech can add value from pitching in up front, but if Lebda (without versatility or size) can't learn from Lids then he adds nothing and is a lost cause.

Edited May 19, 2010 by kook_10

[stevkrause 1,247]

This needs to be brought up again, he has absolutely, positively, got to go...

Before McCrimmon (MacClean handling Defense)

Team \ GP \ 5 on 5 \ 5 on 4 \ 5 on 3 \ 4 on 4 \ 4 on 3 \ 3 on 3 \ 3 on 4 \ 3 on 5 \ 4 on 5 \ EN \ PS \ Total \ GA/G

2005-2006 (first year under new rules/post-lock-out):

DET \ 82 \ 118 \ 9 \ 0 \ 7 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 14 \ 49 \ 4 \ 1 \ 206 \ 2.51

2006-2007:

DET \ 82 \ 104 \ 11 \ 0 \ 9 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 8 \ 55 \ 4 \ 0 \ 191 \ 2.33

2007-2008 (Stanley Cup):

DET \ 82 \ 106 \ 6 \ 0 \ 5 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 7 \ 50 \ 4 \ 1 \ 179 \ 2.18

Since McCrimmon (McCrimmon handling Defense)

Team \ GP \ 5 on 5 \ 5 on 4 \ 5 on 3 \ 4 on 4 \ 4 on 3 \ 3 on 3 \ 3 on 4 \ 3 on 5 \ 4 on 5 \ EN \ PS \ Total \ GA/G

2008-2009:

DET \ 82 \ 147 \ 4 \ 0 \ 11 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 7 \ 61 \ 5 \ 2 \ 240 \ 2.93

2009-2010:

DET \ 82 \ 152 \ 1 \ 0 \ 8 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 40 \ 3 \ 0 \ 207 \ 2.52

2010-2011(Current):

DET \ 54 \ 108 \ 5 \ 0 \ 4 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 2 \ 31 \ 4 \ 1 \ 158 \ 2.93

This is NOT a coincidence... something's got to give

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

...but the benefit of having more good people to learn from like Nick did is that these guys can find their own game by incorporating lessons from a variety of players' styles. To me the jury is out on Meech, but Lebda and Ericsson are clearly not the sharpest knives in the drawer. For that reason, Lids may not be able to fully impart his most valuable assets unto them - his hockey smarts. It's like Gretzky trying to teach McSorley poise and vision - the teacher and student aren't ideally compatible. If E can pick up any smarts from Lids though its a good thing, but he still needs some big body mentoring too because he will never be the best player he can be if he tries to only play Nick's game. That is where Beast and/or Kenny should step in and get him some help to round out the rest of his game.

I feel like Meech can add value from pitching in up front, but if Lebda (without versatility or size) can't learn from Lids then he adds nothing and is a lost cause.

Lebda isn't your best example considering he tanked as soon as he left the Wings.

[titanium2 867]

This is NOT a coincidence... something's got to give

I don't particularly care for McCrimmon or hope he stays or anything like but the thing is I'm not really sure anymore about who to blame. Babcock recently said how much of the time their offense is what sets up their defense, specifically speaking turnovers in the neutral zone and blue line that cause them to be disorganized when trying to set themselves up defensively. It makes sense when you watch them out there. Therefore, it might just be that Babs and MacLean, guys who have worked together for a long time, are the ones designing and running the schemes while McCrimmon is just trying to do whatever's left.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

To make matters worse, Maclean might take a job somewhere else

Good! Then they can make a fantasy of mine a reality, hire Larionov and Fetisov for the assistant positions! I know, Fetisov is not gonna happen, Larionov is an outside chance, but how about we give Chelios the defensive coach position?

[stevkrause 1,247]

Well - we've had our discussions about this last spring, but like the old saying goes - it's always easier to remove 1 bad coach than it is to trade away players whom aren't doing their part.

Agreed... if nothing else, just for a shake up... now, I'm not advocating this happen during the season AT ALL, as coaching changes during a season (especially for a team that's still top 3 in our conference) usually only cause more problems, but this is something that needs to be seriously looked at in the off-season...

Good! Then they can make a fantasy of mine a reality, hire Larionov and Fetisov for the assistant positions! I know, Fetisov is not gonna happen, Larionov is an outside chance, but how about we give Chelios the defensive coach position?

I don't think Larionov has any desire to coach, or I think he would have already had a position somewhere...

Edited February 10, 2011 by stevkrause

[CenterIce 83]

This needs to be brought up again, he has absolutely, positively, got to go...

Before McCrimmon (MacClean handling Defense)

Team \ GP \ 5 on 5 \ 5 on 4 \ 5 on 3 \ 4 on 4 \ 4 on 3 \ 3 on 3 \ 3 on 4 \ 3 on 5 \ 4 on 5 \ EN \ PS \ Total \ GA/G

2005-2006 (first year under new rules/post-lock-out):

DET \ 82 \ 118 \ 9 \ 0 \ 7 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 14 \ 49 \ 4 \ 1 \ 206 \ 2.51

2006-2007:

DET \ 82 \ 104 \ 11 \ 0 \ 9 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 8 \ 55 \ 4 \ 0 \ 191 \ 2.33

2007-2008 (Stanley Cup):

DET \ 82 \ 106 \ 6 \ 0 \ 5 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 7 \ 50 \ 4 \ 1 \ 179 \ 2.18

Since McCrimmon (McCrimmon handling Defense)

Team \ GP \ 5 on 5 \ 5 on 4 \ 5 on 3 \ 4 on 4 \ 4 on 3 \ 3 on 3 \ 3 on 4 \ 3 on 5 \ 4 on 5 \ EN \ PS \ Total \ GA/G

2008-2009:

DET \ 82 \ 147 \ 4 \ 0 \ 11 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 7 \ 61 \ 5 \ 2 \ 240 \ 2.93

2009-2010:

DET \ 82 \ 152 \ 1 \ 0 \ 8 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 40 \ 3 \ 0 \ 207 \ 2.52

2010-2011(Current):

DET \ 54 \ 108 \ 5 \ 0 \ 4 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 2 \ 31 \ 4 \ 1 \ 158 \ 2.93

This is NOT a coincidence... something's got to give

McCrimmon hasn't been the only change over that time. Players have changed, rules have changed,and officials have changed.

[sixer 37]

McCrimmon definitely needs to go!!!

[Datsyerberger 279]

This needs to be brought up again, he has absolutely, positively, got to go...

Before McCrimmon (MacClean handling Defense)

Team \ GP \ 5 on 5 \ 5 on 4 \ 5 on 3 \ 4 on 4 \ 4 on 3 \ 3 on 3 \ 3 on 4 \ 3 on 5 \ 4 on 5 \ EN \ PS \ Total \ GA/G

2005-2006 (first year under new rules/post-lock-out):

DET \ 82 \ 118 \ 9 \ 0 \ 7 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 14 \ 49 \ 4 \ 1 \ 206 \ 2.51

2006-2007:

DET \ 82 \ 104 \ 11 \ 0 \ 9 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 8 \ 55 \ 4 \ 0 \ 191 \ 2.33

2007-2008 (Stanley Cup):

DET \ 82 \ 106 \ 6 \ 0 \ 5 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 7 \ 50 \ 4 \ 1 \ 179 \ 2.18

Since McCrimmon (McCrimmon handling Defense)

Team \ GP \ 5 on 5 \ 5 on 4 \ 5 on 3 \ 4 on 4 \ 4 on 3 \ 3 on 3 \ 3 on 4 \ 3 on 5 \ 4 on 5 \ EN \ PS \ Total \ GA/G

2008-2009:

DET \ 82 \ 147 \ 4 \ 0 \ 11 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 7 \ 61 \ 5 \ 2 \ 240 \ 2.93

2009-2010:

DET \ 82 \ 152 \ 1 \ 0 \ 8 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 40 \ 3 \ 0 \ 207 \ 2.52

2010-2011(Current):

DET \ 54 \ 108 \ 5 \ 0 \ 4 \ 0 \ 0 \ 3 \ 2 \ 31 \ 4 \ 1 \ 158 \ 2.93

This is NOT a coincidence... something's got to give

Previous posts aside (pointing out other changes since then), correlation does not imply causation. Cum hoc fallacy and all that.

[brett 1,029]

the only changes in defense has been, lebda, chelios, lilja. forward changes: samuelson, drake, maltby, mccarty.

i have to say most of the players are the same if not better then the ones that were here. the only other change was defensive coach.

what i like is the news is focusing on defense, always questioning defense. so now the pressure is on. if it keeps up we might see a move.