No Name Goalies Taking Over the NHL

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Out of the 5 starting goalies still remaining in the playoffs, Nabokov is the only one who was expected to be a starter at the beginning of the season. The other guys were all projected backups.

Remember how 10 years ago you needed a Hasek, Roy, Brodeur or Belfour to win the Stanley Cup? Hell, it seemed like those guys were playing for the Cup every year against each other.

Well, the biggest names now in hockey amongst goalies are guys like Luongo, Brodeur, Miller, Lundqvist and Kiprusoff. Of course, those guys are nowhere to be found every year in the playoffs. Their teams don't usually make deep playoff runs.

Also, I remember how as recently as the 2002 Olympics, countries like Sweden, Finland and Slovakia were thought of as lacking in the goaltending department as compared to the other nations. Obviously, that's not true anymore as there are some great goalies from each of those countries.

I guess this thread isn't really a complaint as much as an outlook on how strange the NHL is nowadays in terms of goaltending. Seemingly, teams can just plug in backups that no one has ever heard of, and those guys can take their teams on a long run. This has happened before in league history in isolated cases, but not to the extent we've seen in recent memory.

Edited May 13, 2010 by GMRwings1983

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

It's simple, really.

Today you can't put your money on a goaltender because you don't have the freedom to spend what you want in front of him in case he falters. Roy had it with the Avs, Brodeur had it with the Devils, and Hasek had it with the Red Wings when they won it.

Even if a goaltender is elite, they demand so much that it hurts the talent of the rest of the team, and they simply can't get it done when it counts. Especially when these goaltenders are not consistent enough to warrant such high salaries.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

It's simple, really.

Today you can't put your money on a goaltender because you don't have the freedom to spend what you want in front of him in case he falters. Roy had it with the Avs, Brodeur had it with the Devils, and Hasek had it with the Red Wings when they won it.

Even if a goaltender is elite, they demand so much that it hurts the talent of the rest of the team, and they simply can't get it done when it counts. Especially when these goaltenders are not consistent enough to warrant such high salaries.

It's true that those goalies I mentioned 10 years ago played for teams that had tons of money.

However, do you really think that Boston, Montreal and Philly are that much more talented than Pittsburgh, Jersey or Vancouver? Guys like Brodeur, Luongo and Fleury had plenty of talent in front of them, yet still lost to the lesser known goalies.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

At least this time it wasn't a no-name goalie that ousted the Wings.

[Travis 576]

It's true that those goalies I mentioned 10 years ago played for teams that had tons of money.

However, do you really think that Boston, Montreal and Philly are that much more talented than Pittsburgh, Jersey or Vancouver? Guys like Brodeur, Luongo and Fleury had plenty of talent in front of them, yet still lost to the lesser known goalies.

Agreed. I was thinking of this the other day, actually. Like you said, it was once a necessity to have an elite goalie to get you anywhere in the playoffs. Obviously there will be guys like Halak who come along and steal the show entirely, but others like Rask, Neimi, and even Howard have shown that you don't need to be in an elite class of goaltenders to anchor a team.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

It's true that those goalies I mentioned 10 years ago played for teams that had tons of money.

However, do you really think that Boston, Montreal and Philly are that much more talented than Pittsburgh, Jersey or Vancouver? Guys like Brodeur, Luongo and Fleury had plenty of talent in front of them, yet still lost to the lesser known goalies.

Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury. They are easy to isolate with a solid defensive system.

Vancouver has always been overrated when it came to their talent.

Jersey has been noticeably getting worse. Their system is not what it once was and now that Brodeur is getting older it is showing.

Also consider what the former teams would be doing (Boston, Philly, Montreal) if they had Fleury or Nabokov pay invested in their goaltenders? Would their team be the same? Arguably Boston because of their atrocious contract with Thomas but not the rest of the league. What about Howard? Think of how f***ed the Wings would be (if they weren't already in a cap grind) if he was being paid Thomas cash.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury. They are easy to isolate with a solid defensive system.

Vancouver has always been overrated when it came to their talent.

Jersey has been noticeably getting worse. Their system is not what it once was and now that Brodeur is getting older it is showing.

Also consider what the former teams would be doing (Boston, Philly, Montreal) if they had Fleury or Nabokov pay invested in their goaltenders? Would their team be the same? Arguably Boston because of their atrocious contract with Thomas but not the rest of the league. What about Howard? Think of how f***ed the Wings would be (if they weren't already in a cap grind) if he was being paid Thomas cash.

They need a capable backup. Playing Brodeur 70+ games a year is a major factor in Jersey's three consecutive first round losses.

Edit: *2 of the 3 losses. Marty was hurt for most of last season.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Hockeytown0001

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury. They are easy to isolate with a solid defensive system.

Vancouver has always been overrated when it came to their talent.

Jersey has been noticeably getting worse. Their system is not what it once was and now that Brodeur is getting older it is showing.

Also consider what the former teams would be doing (Boston, Philly, Montreal) if they had Fleury or Nabokov pay invested in their goaltenders? Would their team be the same? Arguably Boston because of their atrocious contract with Thomas but not the rest of the league. What about Howard? Think of how f***ed the Wings would be (if they weren't already in a cap grind) if he was being paid Thomas cash.

That creates an even weirder situation and there is much truth in what you say.

In the next few years, guys like Halak and Rask may start demanding big money based on current playoff performance.

Still, though, Brodeur and Luongo played like crap in these playoffs and should get more blame than anyone else on their team. Even if there was a talent gap between the rest of the team, a great goalie should be able to even that out. Doesn't seem like any of them now can do that.

Edited May 13, 2010 by GMRwings1983

[brett 1,029]

beginner luck

[Datsyerberger 279]

Look at where the final 4(5) are spending their money. Sure, a couple are paying big bucks for goalies and sure, they all have some salary at forward, but..:

Sharks

Boyle - 6.667

Blake - 3.5

Vlasic - 3.1

Murray - 2.5

Huskins - 1.7

Wallin - .543

Hawks

Campbell - 7.1

Seabrook - 3.5

Sopel - 2.333

Johnsson - 1.483 (on a 4.8 cap hit contract)

Keith - 1.475 (6ish next year)

Hjarlmarsson - .643

Philly

Timonen - 6.333

Pronger - 6.25

Carle - 3.438

Coburn - 1.3

Parent - .855

Krajicek - .7

Baaaahstin

Chara - 7.5

Wideman - 3.875

Hunwick - 1.45

Ference - 1.4

Stuart - 1.3

Boychuk - .5

Montreal

Markov - 5.75

Hamrlik - 5.5

Spacek - 3.833

Gill - 2.25

Mara - 1.675

Gorges - 1.1

The only case there where a team with lower quality/salary than their defeated 2nd round opponent is the Sharks, and they're the beneficiaries of several 2nd/1st line quality players on ELCs (as has been the case for every cup winner since the lockout). And they're still paying more than the other defeated 2nd rounders (MTL more than PIT, CHI more than VAN)...

Philly over Boston?

[hockey&beer 16]

As far as I am concerned, the "old time" hockey mentality that a teams needs a "playoff proven" tender to win is ridiculous. Every single one of those guys had to start some where with game 1.

[Shady Ultima 40]

I think it's that the elite goalies are getting old and we hadn't seen anyone to take the role from them. Halak, Howard, Rask and Neimi are showing that they can play and showing they may have the ability to become the new Roy, Hasek, etc.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

IMO, Halak never should've been behind Price.

Halak showed he had more potential and better ability last year and the year before, even in limited time. When he played, he played better than up and down Price. Montreal got themselves in a bind when they got Price to be there future and just couldn't cut ties with him. He may be good one day, but Halak is great now and has been. In all honestly, the Habs are lucky then don't find themselves in a Ducks-like situation where they had to trade Halak for peanutes like Bryzgalov.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Yeah, I mentioned to a buddy the other day that the era of the big name goalie appears to be dead. All you need is a good defense and you can plug in some kid with a funny name in there and go on a run.

Maybe it's just more cost-effective to invest in defense; they can play both ends of the ice and if your defense corps is good enough they can get in lanes and take away enough scoring chances to make even a mediocre goalie look great. Conversely, even the best goalies in the world are going to get beat off screens and deflections just like bad ones, so it's kind of an equalizer.

Plus, if your best Dman has a bad game the rest of the team can pick up the slack for him. If your goalie has a bad game, you lose, as Fleury demonstrated last night.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Yeah, I mentioned to a buddy the other day that the era of the big name goalie appears to be dead. All you need is a good defense and you can plug in some kid with a funny name in there and go on a run.

Maybe it's just more cost-effective to invest in defense; they can play both ends of the ice and if your defense corps is good enough they can get in lanes and take away enough scoring chances to make even a mediocre goalie look great. Conversely, even the best goalies in the world are going to get beat off screens and deflections just like bad ones, so it's kind of an equalizer.

Plus, if your best Dman has a bad game the rest of the team can pick up the slack for him. If your goalie has a bad game, you lose, as Fleury demonstrated last night.

While I will still take an elite, proven goalie over a no name, I think you're on to something. It's a bigger picture thing. Having a good mix of D, both size, toughness, speed and passing ability is probably more and more relevant today and maybe even more important than elite goaltending. Look at the Wings. They've embodied this philosophy for years.

Defensive systems are too good. Players are bigger, the ice surface seems smaller. Goalies are huge and take up almost all of the net. Power plays have become more important than ever.

Oftem times, when you break it down, the difference between getting elite goaltending and crap goaltending is that one guy stops 91 of 100 shots and the other guy stops 89 of 100. It's a fine line and IMHO, not as important today as rolling 6 D, having 1 and possibly 2 elite D and having a core group with good foot speed that can move the puck and have a mixture of size that is willing to block shots and put some shoulders into people.

It's been working for us for years. Seems like other teams are emulating us.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Defensive systems are too good. Players are bigger, the ice surface seems smaller. Goalies are huge and take up almost all of the net. Power plays have become more important than ever.

Oftem times, when you break it down, the difference between getting elite goaltending and crap goaltending is that one guy stops 91 of 100 shots and the other guy stops 89 of 100. It's a fine line and IMHO, not as important today as rolling 6 D, having 1 and possibly 2 elite D and having a core group with good foot speed that can move the puck and have a mixture of size that is willing to block shots and put some shoulders into people.

I agree. Obviously you'd like to have a great goalie instead of an okay goalie, but with the cap it's about getting the most bang for your buck. How can we prevent the most goals? With a great defense that can force people to the outside, take away the slot, get in front of point men, and block shots? Or a great goalie that can make a miraculous save now and again but will still get beat by the same old shots that have been beating goalies since the beginning of time?

Of course some teams fall assbackwards into both like the Habs seem to have this season. Their defense has done a tremendous job against the best players in the world like Ovechkin and Crosby, and Halak has been incredible as well. But Halak is about to become a very rich man, and that will force them to shift their roster away from what made them so successful this playoffs, most likely.

[Finnish Wing 110]

I think it's that the elite goalies are getting old and we hadn't seen anyone to take the role from them. Halak, Howard, Rask and Neimi are showing that they can play and showing they may have the ability to become the new Roy, Hasek, etc.

Howard and Niemi will definitely not become the next "Roy or Hasek". They may be good or decent starters in the future. Rask definitely has the potential to actually be the next top goalie in the world. Halak has been great but he wasn't as big of a prospect before. It may be that he's just playing better than he really is right now.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Look at where the final 4(5) are spending their money. Sure, a couple are paying big bucks for goalies and sure, they all have some salary at forward, but..:

Hawks

Campbell - 7.1

Seabrook - 3.5

Sopel - 2.333

Johnsson - 1.483 (on a 4.8 cap hit contract)

Keith - 1.475 (6ish next year)

Hjarlmarsson - .643

This is still unbelievable to me...

That ginger is easily the most overpaid player in the league.

[eva unit zero 271]

Teams have needed to have solid defenses and goalies in the pre-cap era also. Think back to the 80s and 90s. How many teams won Cups with an elite goaltender and DIDN'T have a strong defense and capable offense?

The Islanders dynasty? Don't think so.

The Oilers? Yeah right.

The Canadiens? Sorry, 1986 and 1993 were strong teams.

The Flames? That was a great team that could have been a true dynasty had Edmonton not been around.

Pittsburgh? Great goalie backing up a strong defense and amazing offense.

New York? Good all around.

New Jersey? Excellent defense, solid forwards, excellent goaltending.

Colorado? This is really getting redundant.

Detroit? Amazing forwards, defense, and goaltending in all four Cup seasons since 1997.

Dallas? Effective all around with a great, highly motivated goaltender.

Anaheim? Well, maybe they were short in the forwards department, but goaltending and defense more than made up for it.

Tampa Bay? Excellent goaltending and ridiculous forwards, plus solid defense.

Carolina? Crazy goaltending for a team with solid defense and scoring.

Pittsburgh? Excellent scoring with two of the top five forwards in the NHL, a solid D corps, and a hot goalie.

Carolina is the closest you'll get since 1970 to a team that won the Cup with a great goaltender with a weak team. Ward is only just now really establishing himself as a top goaltender, so that only proves further that it's not about the goaltender you have. It's about the team you have, and whether your goaltender shows up for the playoffs (see: Chris Osgood 2008 and 2009) so having an "elite" goaltender is far less important than having a "good" goaltender while building a strong team with a good defense and deep, effective all-around forward corps. It's what won Detroit the Cup in 2009, it's what will win other teams Cups in the future.

Believe it.