Jimmy Howard has championship skills

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Not to mention the fact that goaltending numbers IN GENERAL are much better nowadays than they were in the 80s or early 90s. Howard's regular season statistics would have placed him as 3rd in GAA (behind Hasek), 2nd in sv% (behind Hasek), tied for 2nd in wins with Belfour 2nd in wins (behind Richter), and tied for 8th in SO with Irbe, Potvin, Brodeur, Vernon, McLean, and Wakaluk (behind Belfour, Roy, Hasek, Richter, Hextall, Puppa, and Casey) while Howard currently places 5th in GAA, 6th in sv%, tied for 8th in wins, and tied for 20th in SO.

But let's look at two interesting points. I said Osgood was better in the playoffs than Howard in their rookie years. Osgood made fewer mistakes, and Osgood's GAA dropped from 2.86 to 2.31 while Howard's increased from 2.32 to 2.75...Osgood's save percentage went from .895 to .891, Howard's from .924 to .915. Osgood was also several years younger.

Let's take a look at equal age.

Howard turned 26 this season. His stat line is as follows:

Regular season: 63 GP, 37-15-0-10, 3 SO, 2.26, .924

Playoffs: 12 GP, 5-7, 1 SO, 2.75, .915

By comparison, Osgood's stat line for the season he turned 26:

Regular season: 64 GP, 33-20-11-0, 6 SO, 2.21, .913

Playoffs: 22 GP, 16-6, 2 SO, 2.12, .918

Howard lost two games in shootouts, so his record under the old system would be 37-23-8

Give him time, he'll serve well in the playoffs. But don't diss Ozzy just because you don't like him; He was great, has had a HOF career and is still good.

Oh no you have me quite wrong.

I loved Ozzie and always will for what he has done for us. I believe this was stated earlier somewhere but hey maybe its just metaphysics in action here. Without a doubt Osgood will end up in the Hall and I have always lobbied for that. But this was just simply the arguments at hand here. We are talking about first seasons and the comparisons to playoffs aren't that skewed. And yep you got me, the goaltending position has changed a TON since then, but with the scoring binges that happen nowadays and the #'s at hand, I still think Howie is a comfortable option to say the least.

[eva unit zero 271]

Oh no you have me quite wrong.

I loved Ozzie and always will for what he has done for us. I believe this was stated earlier somewhere but hey maybe its just metaphysics in action here. Without a doubt Osgood will end up in the Hall and I have always lobbied for that. But this was just simply the arguments at hand here. We are talking about first seasons and the comparisons to playoffs aren't that skewed. And yep you got me, the goaltending position has changed a TON since then, but with the scoring binges that happen nowadays and the #'s at hand, I still think Howie is a comfortable option to say the least.

I've never said Howard was a bad option. I said he played poorly for the most part in the playoffs, most likely due to fatigue from not getting enough rest during the regular season. Especially down the stretch. Howard's play tapered off going into the playoffs, if you recall. As the season came to an end, Howard was playing some of the worst hockey he had played all year. That further backs up my belief that it was not the playoff pressure and him simply being a rookie, because as a 26-year old who's won IIHF gold and been a pro for five years, he is used to playing under pressure. What he's not used to is playing anywhere NEAR as many games as he did this year. Total playoffs and regular season combined, all leagues in one season, here are the amount of games Howard has played since he started at Maine in 2002-03:

2003: 21 (Maine)

2004: 22 (Maine)

2005: 39 (Maine)

2006: 56 (Grand Rapids, Detroit)

2007: 56 (Grand Rapids)

2008: 58 (Grand Rapids, Detroit)

2009: 46 (Grand Rapids, Detroit)

2010: 74 (Detroit)

This season he played 16 more games that he had previously played at the pro or college level. Furthering that, he played 63 games IN THE REGULAR SEASON, which in and of itself is 5 more than he had played before in any season TOTAL. Babcock overused Howard and should have played Osgood much more than he did. It would have kept Howard fresher and would have kept Ozzie from getting rusty. If anyone is truly to blame for Howard's poor playoff performance it's Babcock, for mishandling his netminders by not knowing whether Howard could go every night or not. Some goalies play better when they play 75 games as opposed to 50-60. Most don't.

[vOrophin 5]

Saying that Howard played poorly in the playoffs is setting your standards very high. For the most part he played well, nothing insane but not a bad performance. He did have several weak moments and stretches, but I don't think those moments constitute him playing poorly overall.

I agree that Babcock mismanaged the goaltenders though, although it is much easier to say that now that everything is said and done. When the Wings were in 9th-10th it didn't seem so bad to go with the hot goalie and hope he gets into the zone and stays there, which he did. However fatigue is something to consider, despite how much players will deny it.

[13dangledangle 960]

JJJIIIIMMMMAAAAYYYYY

[eva unit zero 271]

Saying that Howard played poorly in the playoffs is setting your standards very high. For the most part he played well, nothing insane but not a bad performance. He did have several weak moments and stretches, but I don't think those moments constitute him playing poorly overall.

I agree that Babcock mismanaged the goaltenders though, although it is much easier to say that now that everything is said and done. When the Wings were in 9th-10th it didn't seem so bad to go with the hot goalie and hope he gets into the zone and stays there, which he did. However fatigue is something to consider, despite how much players will deny it.

I said all throughout the season that Howard was being played too much. I was constantly labeled "Osgood slappy" because of the exact reason you just stated; the Wings were "not in a playoff spot and needed to play the hot goalie" but my opinion was more that playing a goalie every game wears him out no matter how hot he is, and this has been proven in the past. Consistently giving Osgood 2 of every 7 games would have been more than enough to keep Howard fresh without shutting down any momentum he might have while still keeping Osgood sharp and ready to step in if necessary.

Osgood had significantly better numbers than Howard before Osgood was kept out with the flu, and also much better than what he finished the season with. So let's imagine that instead of starting 9 of 66 games after the November 7th game against the Maple Leafs which Ozzy played while flu-ridden, Osgood were to start 20 of those games. Assuming W/L records projected the same for pre-Nov 7th Ozzie and post-Nov 7th Howard, the two goalies' stat lines would look something like this:

Osgood after 11-07-09?

20 starts, 20 GP, 10-5-4

2-0 shootouts

1082:58 Mins

50 GA

512 SA

462 SV

2.77 GAA

28.34 SAPG

.902 Sv%

2 SO

Howard after 11-07-09?

46 starts, 29-10-7

0-1 shootouts

2806:26 Mins

102 GA

1392 SA

1290 SV

2.18 GAA

29.76 SAPG

.927 Sv%

2 SO

Osgood was also starting to play better when he went down with the flu. So the assumption that so many here make that playing Osgood any significant amount of games would have cost the Wings a playoff spot is ridiculous.

If that's true, than shouldn't Jimmy Howard be a finalist for the Hart trophy? If the Wings were 7th overall with him and would have been no better than 13th overall without him, and out of the playoffs, then shouldn't he be up for the MVP award if it was all because of him?

[gcom007 1,465]

He didn't have what it takes this year. He didn't lose us the series, but he really didn't give us any help in winning either too much of the time. His regular season was obviously great though, and one has to remember he's a rookie. That's the key, and it could be a good or a bad thing.

In one hand, you could say that it's tough for a rookie to make it happen in the playoffs as it's his first go-around at everything at the NHL level. This would obviously be ideal.

In the other hand though, there have been a lot of goalies who had great regular seasons followed by underwhelming playoff performances and mediocre second seasons. Goalie is one of the strangest spots on the team as physical and technical capabilities can be all there, but the head can screw it all over in the blink of an eye.

So what's the only reasonable answer to the question of whether Jimmy Howard has what it takes to be a premier, championship-caliber goalie?

Time will tell.

He's got a lot of strengths and some noteworthy weaknesses. He had a slow developmental crawl to the NHL, but he proved a lot last year. He was sub-par at best the majority of the time in the playoffs, but after his lowest points, he battled back hard, played strong and at a level at which he could go out with his head up.

So again, time will tell. Anyone too quick to give him all the praise in the world is just as likely to be as wrong as anyone who's too quick to not give him a chance to mature at the NHL level. If Osgood gives him no battle for playing time and Howard is without a doubt the playoff guy down the stretch, next year will be very telling. If Osgood turns in a great regular season and battles for the starting job, it'll be the year after when Osgood's most likely gone and Howard's the "veteran" that will be telling. Until then, it's all speculation, and with goalies, so much can change so quickly, for the good and for the bad.

But what's the bottom line in all this? Well, that's simple: does he deserve a chance? Does he deserve our support? Has he earned that?

Absolutely.

Edited May 22, 2010 by gcom007

[Opie 308]

EVA, many reporters were making a Case for Jimmy to be mentioned in the Hart trophy race, btw any more specifics on those goals, like oh I don't know game, score when it happened?

Or are you still going to post generic statements about bad goals he gave up, but not ever point to an actual goal?

I will give you the Kronner one, but then again I said he let in a bad goal or two in a game.

YOu point to one specific hoping we will miss the rest of your post which is so generic I am not sure if you are even talking about goals he gave up this year.

And to consider AHL experience as the same as NHL experience, like when you said:

and he is given the "but he's a rookie" free pass that guys like Osgood and other 90s rookies never got, despite the fact he has much more pro experience than any of them did and many of them were better in their rookie year than Howard was this year.

Again more generics. give me a name of a rookie goalie who was much better for his team that had so much less pro experience.

Listen Tukka Rask was the best Rookie netminder this year, Howard was second.

Howard was the 5th best goaltender in the NHL, I am so sorry if that does not meet your expectations and if Ozzie riding the pine hurts.

I want him to hit the next century mark in wins, more so I want him to do it in a Wings jersey.

Babs did not see playing a rusty Ozzie as an option, that decision got the team into the playoffs, that is a fact.

Your opinion is that Ozzie could have done it too, but there are no facts and no evidence (despite all you make up) to prove that point.

Ozzie's last two regular seasons he has look a lot like another Det player, well former. Now he is a Boston Celtic, and Rasheed Wallace plays like crap in the regular season, turns it on for the post season. But that is ok for a guy who comes in off of the bench to give a guy a breather once in a while, not to play nightly.

Say what you want but he stat (actual, not yours) say Ozzie has been poop in the regular season recently.

Howard was hot, Ozzie was cold. People can say Babs hates Ozzie, Ozzie would have won the cup, but all of that is conjecture and all we know for a fact is that Howard was HOT, Babs rode him all the way to the second round. IN which he lost 4-3,4-3,4-3, 2-1. Not a single game had an empty netter, Howard whether or not you like the way he did it, kept the Wings in all games, but I would say game 3(TY SWF) he blew the Wings momentum.

That one I will put on Howie, the rest of the games, are you ready for this:

THE TEAM LOST!

Edited May 22, 2010 by Opie

[gcom007 1,465]

I said all throughout the season that Howard was being played too much. I was constantly labeled "Osgood slappy" because of the exact reason you just stated; the Wings were "not in a playoff spot and needed to play the hot goalie" but my opinion was more that playing a goalie every game wears him out no matter how hot he is, and this has been proven in the past. Consistently giving Osgood 2 of every 7 games would have been more than enough to keep Howard fresh without shutting down any momentum he might have while still keeping Osgood sharp and ready to step in if necessary.

Osgood had significantly better numbers than Howard before Osgood was kept out with the flu, and also much better than what he finished the season with. So let's imagine that instead of starting 9 of 66 games after the November 7th game against the Maple Leafs which Ozzy played while flu-ridden, Osgood were to start 20 of those games. Assuming W/L records projected the same for pre-Nov 7th Ozzie and post-Nov 7th Howard, the two goalies' stat lines would look something like this:

Osgood after 11-07-09?

20 starts, 20 GP, 10-5-4

2-0 shootouts

1082:58 Mins

50 GA

512 SA

462 SV

2.77 GAA

28.34 SAPG

.902 Sv%

2 SO

Howard after 11-07-09?

46 starts, 29-10-7

0-1 shootouts

2806:26 Mins

102 GA

1392 SA

1290 SV

2.18 GAA

29.76 SAPG

.927 Sv%

2 SO

Osgood was also starting to play better when he went down with the flu. So the assumption that so many here make that playing Osgood any significant amount of games would have cost the Wings a playoff spot is ridiculous.

If that's true, than shouldn't Jimmy Howard be a finalist for the Hart trophy? If the Wings were 7th overall with him and would have been no better than 13th overall without him, and out of the playoffs, then shouldn't he be up for the MVP award if it was all because of him?

I think I give Howard a bit more credit than you, or at least more grace (ROOKIE!), but I agree with the perspective on Osgood. The reality of the situation has become so convoluted at this point though that it hardly matters. People seem to forget that in October when Osgood was starting the majority of the time, and we were actually healthy, we were playing HORRENDOUSLY BAD team hockey, and in many games that turned into losses, Osgood was about the only bright spot we had.

I think it was against Phoenix or Colorado towards the end of October, we ended up losing in overtime, and good old Mickey Redmond went on one of his pissed off rants about how Osgood deserves so much better the way he's been playing, the team isn't giving him any help at all, game after game they're just giving the other team all the opportunities in the world and the only reason why they're in these games at all is because of Osgood. I remember that game in particular, in the last 10 minutes, Osgood made brilliant save after brilliant save because the team defense was absolutely non-existent, but he eventually surrendered the tying goal, and we lost quickly in overtime, again, because no one could tell if the team just went back to the bench when we were supposed to be playing defense.

It was horrid, like much of October when Osgood was carrying the majority of the load. It's only when guys started getting injured and we had no other choice but to tighten up the D or get obliterated if we had Hasek and Roy in net at the same time while in their prime! And around that time is when Osgood got sick and sat out for a week. The rest of the team tightens up, maybe doubly so because of the then shaky backup Howard having to be the starter for a bit. Next thing you know, Howard's putting up great numbers, partially because the defense finally came into existence, but certainly because he got his game going to. You can't take anything away from how well Howard played in the regular season, faults and all.

He may've given up a lot of rebounds, but the guy found a way to stop most of them too. Don't forget that.

But none the less, did Osgood really get a shot to get anything going after being down with the flu? No, not really at all. And I've said all along that it was a mistake, and that we'd be sorry down the stretch.

And I want to stress, I say this not to take anything away from Howard as a goalie nor what he accomplished this season, but I would've done what is necessary to get Osgood ready to be the playoff starter, and I think if Osgood was starting, right now, it'd be a 2-1 series (anyone's bet on who'd be up 2-1, but I think it'd be 2-1 after 3 games...) against Chicago. I don't think Howard played horrifically in the playoffs at all, but Osgood wouldn't have had to play nearly as well as he did the last two years to have gone up 3-0 against San Jose, and we would've won. I really have no doubt about that.

You, "any give poster," don't have to agree with me, but it's what I believe and I would hope that you would show me the respect of at least considering that I've put some logical thought into it. You cannot ignore what Osgood was able to do the last two playoff runs, and you'd be a fool to think that he really just "lost it" in a matter of months. Countless people were saying the same thing in 2009, and I was one of only a handful of people GUARANTEEING that Osgood would show up and saying "QUOTE ME ON IT IN JUNE" the whole year. No one loses so much, so fast. He might not have been able to equal his 2009 performance which all factors considered was superior even to his 2008 Cup-winning performance, but like I said, he wouldn't have had to play nearly as well to have beaten San Jose with our team scoring 3 goals a game in the first 3 games.

In my mind, it's not about Chris Osgood being wildly better than Jimmy Howard. It's not about Chris Osgood being a great, under-appreciated goalie. It's not about Jimmy Howard being a terrible goalie who gives up way too many huge rebounds while too often getting caught out of position, not to mention his poor puck-handling skills in general (ROOKIE!!!!!!).

It's just this: in the playoffs, I'll go with the veteran over the rookie 99.99999999999% of the time for good reason. I don't think it was even fair to Howard to put this kind of pressure on him in his rookie year. He had a GREAT rookie year. Why try to put a damper on it with the playoffs when you've got a veteran goalie on the roster as well?

Oh yeah, that veteran has 3 Stanley Cup rings.

Oh yeah, that veteran was practically the Conn Smythe-winner last year, carrying a battered team to a game 7 Stanley Cup finals matchup in which we lost by 1 goal.

Oh yeah, the year before that, that veteran won the Stanley Cup.

I'm sorry, but I don't care how great Howard played in the regular season, nor how poorly Osgood (maybe...) played in the regular season. When it comes to the playoffs, you'd be wise to go with the veteran.

Again, if we had done that this year, we probably would still be in the hunt. Osgood would have found a way to get going in the regular season with the playoffs on the line. Make no mistake of that; don't kid yourselves for a second on it. Please, just remember where Osgood has been in the regular season and playoffs the last couple years and get objective for just a few seconds.

Ugh, whatever...I'm tired...long week...I'm not pissed at Howard, at all, and I'm more than willing to give him a chance in the next few years, but I think Babcock screwed up royally this year, and I think we'd still be in it with Osgood in goal. It's as simple as that. Nothing against Howard at all; it's just that in the playoffs, there's so much to be said for going with the veteran.

Let the rookie watch; let the rookie learn. Then, in his time, the rookie will be ready to face the challenge head on as opposed to floundering through things as Howard unfortunately had to this year. I don't blame him, nor have I ever. That one's on Babcock.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Assuming W/L records projected the same for pre-Nov 7th Ozzie and post-Nov 7th Howard, the two goalies' stat lines would look something like this:

[Broken 16 381]

Wings were being outshot more this season than any other season I can remember. Howard faced a lot of quality rubber for basically an entire season and we still got into the playoffs. And aside from that one awful goal, nothing Howard did cost the Wings any games. Even that one is debatable. And he did it all as a rookie. And it doesn't matter that he is 26. He still had to make that leap into the NHL and he finished among the leaders in the NHL.

To even insinuate that Osgood should be the starter next season is just flat out dumb.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Broken 16

[gcom007 1,465]

EVA, many reporters were making a Case for Jimmy to be mentioned in the Hart trophy race, btw any more specifics on those goals, like oh I don't know game, score when it happened?

Or are you still going to post generic statements about bad goals he gave up, but not ever point to an actual goal?

I will give you the Kronner one, but then again I said he let in a bad goal or two in a game.

YOu point to one specific hoping we will miss the rest of your post which is so generic I am not sure if you are even talking about goals he gave up this year.

And to consider AHL experience as the same as NHL experience, like when you said:

Again more generics. give me a name of a rookie goalie who was much better for his team that had so much less pro experience.

Listen Tukka Rask was the best Rookie netminder this year, Howard was second.

Howard was the 5th best goaltender in the NHL, I am so sorry if that does not meet your expectations and if Ozzie riding the pine hurts.

I want him to hit the next century mark in wins, more so I want him to do it in a Wings jersey.

Babs did not see playing a rusty Ozzie as an option, that decision got the team into the playoffs, that is a fact.

Your opinion is that Ozzie could have done it too, but there are no facts and no evidence (despite all you make up) to prove that point.

Ozzie's last two regular seasons he has look a lot like another Det player, well former. Now he is a Boston Celtic, and Rasheed Wallace plays like crap in the regular season, turns it on for the post season. But that is ok for a guy who comes in off of the bench to give a guy a breather once in a while, not to play nightly.

Say what you want but he stat (actual, not yours) say Ozzie has been poop in the regular season recently.

Howard was hot, Ozzie was cold. People can say Babs hates Ozzie, Ozzie would have won the cup, but all of that is conjecture and all we know for a fact is that Howard was HOT, Babs rode him all the way to the second round. IN which he lost 4-3,4-3,4-3, 2-1. Not a single game had an empty netter, Howard whether or not you like the way he did it, kept the Wings in all games, but I would say game 3(TY SWF) he blew the Wings momentum.

That one I will put on Howie, the rest of the games, are you ready for this:

THE TEAM LOST!

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Howard lost all the games, but a goalie going to the Cup finals absolutely does not give up as many back to back goals as Howard did against San Jose. We had brutal first periods where sure, maybe the defense wasn't outstanding either, but it's not like San Jose was scoring brilliant goals. Howard wasn't making saves that even the average Howard was making in the regular season. Again, I'm not talking 50-whatever save night against LA way back when...I'm talking average, run-of-the-mill, regular-season Jimmy Howard would've stopped a lot of those those shots that turned into goals just moments apart. In the first period, or at the end of periods, that's just brutal. His timing for giving up goals was horrid, and rarely did he make the saves necessary to get the TEAM through a rough patch.

Again, I'm not saying he was horrid at all, but it's absurd to suggest that he was anything more than average, if not utterly sub-par, the majority of the time in the playoffs. I'm not a Howard-hater, and I'm all for giving him a chance, but he didn't come even close to playing at a level that resembled his regular season performances on a consistent basis. That's just as true against San Jose as it was against Phoenix. I don't care what name is on the back of the jersey, unless you're in the 1980's and playing for the Oiler's, you can't expect to win in the playoffs when you give up 4 goals a game the majority of the time. It's absolutely absurd to suggest otherwise, and I bet I could pull up quotes from even you in years past saying that very thing if I really felt lead to search.

We can defend Jimmy Howard all we want, and we should in many ways if people want to just write him off already, but to suggest that he wasn't the worst playoff goalie we've had by far since Manny Legace is just not realistic at all. Hell, I think Hasek probably got pulled for less than Howard got away with this year when you really go back and look at it objectively.

And sorry, while I readily admit that I have no objective evidence from this regular season to support my stance on this, I still fully believe Osgood would've found a way to win games and get us into the playoffs. I mean, the guy's on the brink of 400 and is kinda, maybe, just a little bit maybe even, coming off of two Stanley Cup Finals appearances, the losing one being even more personally noteworthy than the winning one. I aim to take nothing away from Howard unlike some, but I still believe that Osgood could have played a far more active role in getting us into the playoffs, and I firmly believe that we'd be in it still if Osgood was starting.

I know, lack of evidence from this season. Yeah, it's a *****.

But all Howard's got is this season.

How many Cup rings does Osgood have?

And in what game, and in what position did he finish the last two seasons?

And how many wins does he have again?

I guess a long, successful career just means a bit more to some than others...

[eva unit zero 271]

EVA, many reporters were making a Case for Jimmy to be mentioned in the Hart trophy race, btw any more specifics on those goals, like oh I don't know game, score when it happened?

Or are you still going to post generic statements about bad goals he gave up, but not ever point to an actual goal?

I will give you the Kronner one, but then again I said he let in a bad goal or two in a game.

YOu point to one specific hoping we will miss the rest of your post which is so generic I am not sure if you are even talking about goals he gave up this year.

And to consider AHL experience as the same as NHL experience, like when you said:

Again more generics. give me a name of a rookie goalie who was much better for his team that had so much less pro experience.

Listen Tukka Rask was the best Rookie netminder this year, Howard was second.

Howard was the 5th best goaltender in the NHL, I am so sorry if that does not meet your expectations and if Ozzie riding the pine hurts.

I want him to hit the next century mark in wins, more so I want him to do it in a Wings jersey.

Babs did not see playing a rusty Ozzie as an option, that decision got the team into the playoffs, that is a fact.

Your opinion is that Ozzie could have done it too, but there are no facts and no evidence (despite all you make up) to prove that point.

Ozzie's last two regular seasons he has look a lot like another Det player, well former. Now he is a Boston Celtic, and Rasheed Wallace plays like crap in the regular season, turns it on for the post season. But that is ok for a guy who comes in off of the bench to give a guy a breather once in a while, not to play nightly.

Say what you want but he stat (actual, not yours) say Ozzie has been poop in the regular season recently.

Howard was hot, Ozzie was cold. People can say Babs hates Ozzie, Ozzie would have won the cup, but all of that is conjecture and all we know for a fact is that Howard was HOT, Babs rode him all the way to the second round. IN which he lost 4-3,4-3,4-3, 2-1. Not a single game had an empty netter, Howard whether or not you like the way he did it, kept the Wings in all games, but I would say game 3(TY SWF) he blew the Wings momentum.

That one I will put on Howie, the rest of the games, are you ready for this:

THE TEAM LOST!

I said Ozzie was playing well when getting regular time. FACT.

I said he was responsible several times through mistakes in his decisions of how he handled the puck or how he played it afterwards. FACT.

I never said Osgood would have carried the Wings to the playoffs or played better than Howard did, I never said Ozzie would have been better than Howard. I never said he would have suddenly put on the cape and been the Super-Ozzie we saw the past couple of postseasons. FACT

However, take another look at Howard's wins. The margins of victory in his wins were 3, 3, 5, 3, and 6. The average goals the Wings scored in his wins was 4.00, as opposed to the average 2.28 that the Wings scored in his losses. Team failure, you say? His average loss was by 1, and he averaged a GAA of 3.28 in those losses compared to a GAA of 1.4 in his wins. If a team has to score 4+ goals to win games, they're not going to win many. Incidentally, the Wings' record scoring 4+ goals in the playoffs? 2-0. Their record scoring 3 or fewer? 5-5. Detroit lost three games despite scoring three goals. THREE goals! That's not something you can sit there and say "The team didn't show up and the goalie was great" because the team definitely showed up.

Howard could have been better in the postseason. I say against that it all comes back to fatigue. The maximum amount of professional-level games Howard had played in a season from the start of the year until the end of the playoffs was 58. He played 63 in the regular season this year, and ended at 72. His performance was declining towards the end of the regular season. It was clear he was fatigued. He should have seen 10-15 fewer starts to keep him fresh for the postseason run. He would have been fresh in the first couple rounds and he wouldn't have hit 70 games played until the end of the conference finals or possibly even the finals.

[Opie 308]

gcom007 - What do Ozzie's Rings and Mike Vernon's career record have in common?

They have nothing to do with this post season!

EVA-

I agree he should have played less during the season, however Babs didn't think a rusty Ozzie could pull it out. Not my opinion not my decision.

The other option was 3 other rookies.

Yes Howard needed to rest more during the season, however the only way Babs thought he could get any wins was to play Howard.

Can you imagine the overreaction here if the Wings finish 9th.

You may say well what does that have to due with anything, the pressure on this org to make the playoffs and a run at the cup is higher than any other team.

Babs had to do what he could, was it what caused the loss to SJ, no!

Games 1 and 2 how many special teams goals did SJ score?

Three goals, dude this is not 1999 anymore do me a favor and look through the scores of the rest of the league during the post season and tell me how many games the winning team scored 4 or more! Sure it is about 50/50, what does that prove, 3 goals is not that big of a hurdle.

How many goals did the Wings average in wins? and Losses? see you only provide one side, the side that helps you. I would be just as worried that the goalie has to give up less than 2 goals to get wins. But that is just me, I think the team lost as a whole, including Howard. PK goals were almost guaranteed at the end, and you can say that was on Howard all you want, but that is you being biased!

Oh and anything to say about the Hart thing?

He is a rookie, lets see what he can do next year, he could be the next Raycroft, He could be the next Vokoun, the next Richter, the next Carey, or even the next Chris Osgood, which based on their relationship and personalities is probably the most likely, and hey a 400 win (not that Howard has that much time left in his career) goaltender is pretty damn good.

Last thing on this subject, you keep stating you supported and support Howard, but everything I read in your posts says the opposite.

Stop avoiding direct questions and it may not look like that.

Sorry that is the way your posts read, you make generalizations about goals he let up, and twice I have asked you for specifics and then you directly quote me and still don't point to any specific goals.

Do you know who needs to say to people they support Howard "really I do, I do I support him, I always have and I will prove it", people who don't, they are trying to prove it to themselves as much as the people reading it.

It is like saying "I am only going to say this once" if it is the truth you don't have to worry about saying it once, twice, a hundred times! (Thanks Cal Lightman for that quote! lol!)

Edited May 22, 2010 by Opie

[13dangledangle 960]

JIMMMAAYYYY

[Broken 16 381]

JIMMMAAYYYY

Idle hands are the devil's workshop... or something like that.

[thedisappearer 291]

Idle hands are the devil's workshop... or something like that.

No, you masturbate too much!

[Broken 16 381]

No, you masturbate too much!

That's a matter of opinion... you know opinions don't fly around here.

[13dangledangle 960]

Idle hands are the devil's workshop... or something like that.

It started as "Idle hands are the devil's tools" actually.........

...........(JIIMMMMAAAAYYYYYY)

Edited August 27, 2010 by 13dangledangle