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Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

History Will be Made

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You forget that players calculate what is in the best interest of their careers. If you are Ville Leino or Kyle Quincey where would you rather play to further your income? No knock on them BTW.

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Are you implying that Leino chose to leave?

I think he just wanted to play on a line with skill players, and Babcock wouldnt let him do it without first serving time on the forth line with scrubs. Ville will be a 30 goal scorer in this league, and we gave him away. I'm getting sick of Keeny giving away good talent for nothing. Or maybe its Babcock's coaching. How could we keep Meech in favor of Quincy, or Williams instead of Leino? How can the Red Wings as an organization so blatently miss talent like that?!

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How long does it take for people to understand that Ville is not a complete player? He chose himself what to do or not to do. He is not going into dirty areas, losses the puck too quickly, etc. He needs special players around him to do this job. Red Wings are not built this way. In our system all players need to be responsible. That is why Williams is very bad here. That is why Ville plays for Philly. And I actually like it.

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Are you implying that Leino chose to leave?

I think he just wanted to play on a line with skill players, and Babcock wouldnt let him do it without first serving time on the forth line with scrubs. Ville will be a 30 goal scorer in this league, and we gave him away. I'm getting sick of Keeny giving away good talent for nothing. Or maybe its Babcock's coaching. How could we keep Meech in favor of Quincy, or Williams instead of Leino? How can the Red Wings as an organization so blatently miss talent like that?!

Leino played on a line with Filppula and with other fairly good players for awhile. No dice. He was lazy and he generally sucked. Holland wouldn't have traded him otherwise; as you may have noticed, loyalty is a keystone of this franchise, and so players very rarely get traded unless there's something genuinely wrong with how they're playing. We needed the cap space and Leino wasn't willing to put forth his all, and so he's gone.

Quincey had every chance to prove himself. He got time in the regular season and he played a bunch of games in the '07 playoffs. He didn't even show a glimmer of the offensive talent he has exhibited over the past two seasons. Meech, on the other hand, played quite well when he was thrust into essentially a #1 defense slot during the injury spell in '08. That's why Meech stayed and Quincey did not.

What you're doing here is bitching. You are making complaints that have absolutely no basis in reality. You are engaging in a course of egregious hindsight criticism. What's your problem?

asoras, shoe, Byorski and 1 other like this

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No one should be surprised at what Leino is doing in Philly. He has good offensive instincts and is a good player. I remember only a couple of people sticking up for him around here, and now look at all of you. All it took was him playing with good players. Also, I think Philly's toughness has rubbed off on him and he digs a lot more now. Leino is a good fit for the Flyers. Kenny made the right choice at the time, considering the circumstances. I just can't see why he signed Jason Williams, it was a bad signing. Now, since Kenny says he wants a gritty fourth liner, that means that he's going to pick up a 35+ year old to fill that role.

FYI...the wings still have never won a cup without some type of enforcer on the team. Whether, it's a coincidence or not is a different story, but that's another debate.

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Leino played on a line with Filppula and with other fairly good players for awhile. No dice. He was lazy and he generally sucked. Holland wouldn't have traded him otherwise; as you may have noticed, loyalty is a keystone of this franchise, and so players very rarely get traded unless there's something genuinely wrong with how they're playing. We needed the cap space and Leino wasn't willing to put forth his all, and so he's gone.

Quincey had every chance to prove himself. He got time in the regular season and he played a bunch of games in the '07 playoffs. He didn't even show a glimmer of the offensive talent he has exhibited over the past two seasons. Meech, on the other hand, played quite well when he was thrust into essentially a #1 defense slot during the injury spell in '08. That's why Meech stayed and Quincey did not.

What you're doing here is bitching. You are making complaints that have absolutely no basis in reality. You are engaging in a course of egregious hindsight criticism. What's your problem?

If you remember, the Flip Leino Williams line at the beginning of the year was quoted by Babcock as our best line. What messed that all up was the injury to filpula. They were never reunited. Some players are pure goal scorers. Not every player is going to play a hard nosed gritty style. Didnt the wings lose this year because of a lack of scoring depth? I wont even get started on Kenny's off season blunders, including his inability to retain any of Hudler, Sammy AND Hossa.

Why is it that it seems like players flourish when they leave this team? They just wake up and decide to play to their potential to show the wings what they missed out on? Ken Holland has done nothing but Fuck this team up lately. They won the cup in 2008 despite him, not because of him.

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Maybe the fact that he got traded because he wasn't doing some of the dirty work and/or producing points was all the motivation he needed. We say flashes that he could be a good player when he wanted to in Detroit.

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puke.gifno.gif

Why oh why Kenny...

Why did they give up on him SO fast?

Why? Because they claimed Miller off waivers because we had so many injuries. Once Franzen came back we had too many players and were over the cap so someone had to go. Miller had earned himself a roster spot with his play and Leino hadn't, so Ville was traded.

If Leino had played for Detroit this season like he has played for Philly in the playoffs maybe he wouldn't have been traded. Plus I don't think its fair to pin this on Holland, its pretty clear that Babcock never liked him.

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If you remember, the Flip Leino Williams line at the beginning of the year was quoted by Babcock as our best line. What messed that all up was the injury to filpula. They were never reunited. Some players are pure goal scorers. Not every player is going to play a hard nosed gritty style. Didnt the wings lose this year because of a lack of scoring depth? I wont even get started on Kenny's off season blunders, including his inability to retain any of Hudler, Sammy AND Hossa.

How long into the season was Filppula injured? Six weeks? How many goals did Leino score during the time that that line was together? Get back to me with that number.

Offseason blunders, ya. Right. Let's start with Holland's inability to violate the salary cap. Clearly that's a big problem of his. Next let's move on to Samuelsson. He was signed early by the Canucks; Holland was trying to sign Hudler, as Hudler was an RFA, and so there was no chance to offer big money to Samuelsson off the bat. Signing Hossa would have required trading Filppula. Holland wasn't willing to do this. As for Hudler, are you serious? You're really? blaming Holland for failing to retain Hudler? Hudler jumped ship for the $5m per year, tax free, that he was offered by Moscow Dynamo. Did I mention that you were irrationally bitching?

Why is it that it seems like players flourish when they leave this team? They just wake up and decide to play to their potential to show the wings what they missed out on? Ken Holland has done nothing but Fuck this team up lately. They won the cup in 2008 despite him, not because of him.

I'll mention the "irrational bitching" again. Oh, and you're right, because players never come to the Wings as busts and end up being successful.

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Let's start with Holland's inability to violate the salary cap. Clearly that's a big problem of his.

The knock on Holland is he doesn't break rules well enough? You are aware he's not *allowed* to "violate" the salary cap, right?

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How long does it take for people to understand that Ville is not a complete player? He chose himself what to do or not to do. He is not going into dirty areas, losses the puck too quickly, etc. He needs special players around him to do this job. Red Wings are not built this way. In our system all players need to be responsible. That is why Williams is very bad here. That is why Ville plays for Philly. And I actually like it.

Dead on.

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Leino punched his own ticket out of town. He had some early success and surprised a few people and then chose to rest on his laurels. He looked pathetic in the corners, hardly put in the effort to skate, and did absolutely nothing to grab the opportunities that were given to him. If you want to blame anyone for Leino leaving, blame Ville.

I know I was really pulling for Ville at the beginning of the season, he had the tools to get the job done, but didn't have the constitution to do said job. Maybe he realized he had blown a golden opportunity with a great team and the trade to Philly woke him up, knowing much more slacking meant going back to Finland a failure. He is doing better than he was doing here, but he still hasn't really impressed me in Philly, doing some of the things we knew he was capable of while still having his moments of floating around.

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Leino punched his own ticket out of town. He had some early success and surprised a few people and then chose to rest on his laurels. He looked pathetic in the corners, hardly put in the effort to skate, and did absolutely nothing to grab the opportunities that were given to him. If you want to blame anyone for Leino leaving, blame Ville.

I know I was really pulling for Ville at the beginning of the season, he had the tools to get the job done, but didn't have the constitution to do said job. Maybe he realized he had blown a golden opportunity with a great team and the trade to Philly woke him up, knowing much more slacking meant going back to Finland a failure. He is doing better than he was doing here, but he still hasn't really impressed me in Philly, doing some of the things we knew he was capable of while still having his moments of floating around.

Exactly... people are only looking at the numbers, he still looks timid and meek in the hard areas and the only reason he is scoring, is that he is fortunate enough to be on a team FILLED with guys that are willing to do what he isn't...

I, as well, was pulling for him hard at the beginning of the year and his just complete apparent lack of heart turned me off so bad, that I can't help but be disgusted by the time he put in here and even if he turns into something more (which I don't think he ever will) - I STILL say good riddance...

Until he puts in a full season and proves otherwise, I still think this is just one of MANY flash in the pan stories of a player on a hot streak... eventually water finds its level and Leino will prove to be what he is, a mediocre, fringe NHL'er at best...

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If you remember, the Flip Leino Williams line at the beginning of the year was quoted by Babcock as our best line. What messed that all up was the injury to filpula. They were never reunited. Some players are pure goal scorers. Not every player is going to play a hard nosed gritty style. Didnt the wings lose this year because of a lack of scoring depth? I wont even get started on Kenny's off season blunders, including his inability to retain any of Hudler, Sammy AND Hossa.

Why is it that it seems like players flourish when they leave this team? They just wake up and decide to play to their potential to show the wings what they missed out on? Ken Holland has done nothing but Fuck this team up lately. They won the cup in 2008 despite him, not because of him.

To be fair, when you say 'players flourish' you're talking specifically about Leino and Quincey. Neither one of them showed us anything, so what would you have Kenny do? Sometimes you need a change of scenery and it's worked for both of them. Quincey plays a much bigger role on a much younger team and - without a doubt - wouldn't be as good had he stayed here. He just wouldn't have the same responsibility or ice time.

Leino is still a wash to me. Sure, he's doing well in Philly (obviously) but you can't deny that he was horrible here. It's not a matter of him not being treated fairly or him not getting ice time with offensive powers - he wasn't even trying. He regularly gave up on plays and showed little-to-nothing that would warrant putting him in the top 6.

Let's not forget that he's doing all this against the bottom of the East. Had we kept him he would have been just as useless as he had been before we traded him.

I can't imagine how you can rationally say that they won the cup despite Holland's efforts, either. Did the players organize themselves into a team without him or something? Were we not hands down the best team in the league? You're right. Holland probably had nothing to do with putting that team together. As far as this past Summer goes, retaining Hossa was a near-impossibility and the Hawks will be paying the price for offering him such a large contract this Summer. Sammy had his house on the market like two days after Game 7, and Hudler isn't the only player to test the lucrative waters of the KHL.

If you really want to be bitter that Leino has finally decided to try now that he's in Philadelphia, then knock yourself out - but don't try to act like he was some really promising young talent we had that we gave up on; and the last thing you should try to do is act like Holland isn't arguably the top GM in the NHL.

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How long does it take for people to understand that Ville is not a complete player? He chose himself what to do or not to do. He is not going into dirty areas, losses the puck too quickly, etc. He needs special players around him to do this job. Red Wings are not built this way. In our system all players need to be responsible. That is why Williams is very bad here. That is why Ville plays for Philly. And I actually like it.

Funny, imo Ville always went to dirty areas, he just always got smashed lol. The thing I liked about him however was that he could hang on to the puck?! However as for drive? in detroit he had NONE. Looked good last year, two or three glimmers this year but expected to be on line 1 or 2?? A`lazy attitude and Babcock is like oil and water.....The trade needed to happen, I just think its ashame we got Tollefson (is that his name) for him! Oh well, Good luck Leino.

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How long does it take for people to understand that Ville is not a complete player? He chose himself what to do or not to do. He is not going into dirty areas, losses the puck too quickly, etc. He needs special players around him to do this job. Red Wings are not built this way. In our system all players need to be responsible. That is why Williams is very bad here. That is why Ville plays for Philly. And I actually like it.

Do you even know what a complete player means? If this organization would have only complete players it would be over the cap by far. You pay for offense and you pay for defense. Hudler is a guy that has great offense and we will put him on the top6. No need to pay extra money to get a guy who can play PK too, as we already have them. Helm isn't a complete player. Abdelkader isn't a complete player. Cleary isn't a complete player. Holmstrom isn't a complete player. The list goes on and on.

If you guys have even watched a single game for Philly this post-season, you'd know that Leino has done much dirty work for that line. It's a different thing then if you don't even wanna believe what you see.

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Leino punched his own ticket out of town. He had some early success and surprised a few people and then chose to rest on his laurels. He looked pathetic in the corners, hardly put in the effort to skate, and did absolutely nothing to grab the opportunities that were given to him. If you want to blame anyone for Leino leaving, blame Ville.

I know I was really pulling for Ville at the beginning of the season, he had the tools to get the job done, but didn't have the constitution to do said job. Maybe he realized he had blown a golden opportunity with a great team and the trade to Philly woke him up, knowing much more slacking meant going back to Finland a failure. He is doing better than he was doing here, but he still hasn't really impressed me in Philly, doing some of the things we knew he was capable of while still having his moments of floating around.

Hahah, so wrong. You think a player who would work through AHL to be an NHL player at the age of 25 (instead of going to KHL to get paid big time) CHOSE to not work anymore? You know how stupid that even sounds? You all think it was the reason for everything that he didn't work hard or was lazy. It wasn't the reason. It was the result. The actual reason was losing all confidence.

I blame Holland in the first place for trying to replace the missing scoring by getting Leino and Williams rather than either Hudler or Samuelsson. Leino and Williams weren't top6 guys for sure at the start of the season and Kenny knew it. Then came all the injuries and worst-case scenario happened. Guys like those two had to step up while they wasn't ready for it.

You should understand that you don't start working just by snapping your fingers. The loss of confidence is obviously the biggest reason for Leino sucking here and change of scenery fixed that like it many times does. You get a new fresh start. Some of you just don't wanna believe it. It's like you're blaming Leino for us having a bad season or something. I ask it again: is it Campbell's fault that he's way overpaid? Or the GM's?

He hasn't floated around for a single game this post season (although I doubt you've even watched a single game). He was doing all the little things right before the points even started to come. And he's continued doing them. He skates, he fights in the corners, does back-checking and once in a while even hits someone.

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Exactly... people are only looking at the numbers, he still looks timid and meek in the hard areas and the only reason he is scoring, is that he is fortunate enough to be on a team FILLED with guys that are willing to do what he isn't...

I, as well, was pulling for him hard at the beginning of the year and his just complete apparent lack of heart turned me off so bad, that I can't help but be disgusted by the time he put in here and even if he turns into something more (which I don't think he ever will) - I STILL say good riddance...

Until he puts in a full season and proves otherwise, I still think this is just one of MANY flash in the pan stories of a player on a hot streak... eventually water finds its level and Leino will prove to be what he is, a mediocre, fringe NHL'er at best...

Totally wrong. He plays on a line with Briere and Hartnell and he's been the engine of that line since they got united. Even Scott Hartnell got going once he was put on that line. If you don't want to believe your own eyes, then OK. But Leino does go to the hard areas, receives hit and he's done it since he game to the Flyers. As I said, once he started doing all that the points came after a little while. He's been many times in front of the net doing dirty work even when he has not gotten points out of it.

Lack of heart? Do you have a heart-o-meter back there or how did you measure his lack of heart? To me saying that someone doesn't have the heart means that someone doesn't even want to get it done. Kinda weird if he just chose to not work for it after first playing a season down in the AHL to even get a chance to play up here rather than going to the KHL for the big cash. Although, I doubt you even really ever "pulled for him".

You HOPE he doesn't turn into anything because of two reasons: a) he didn't get it done here and the trade would look too bad (although the trade is a steal already) b) you predicted that he won't even be an NHL player in the future. You've basically seen him play bad not even a full season and you somehow THINK that he will never turn into anything, though at same time he's leading the scoring among rookies in the playoffs.

Fringe NHLer AT BEST? Wow, last time he wasn't even an NHLer. Guess, things we changed. You don't even believe that prediction yourself. Also, I could predict that some star player is just on a hot streak and he suddenly drops out of the NHL without any arguments to back it up. The fact is you don't even know what kinda player the normal Ville Leino is. He proved last year and this post-season that he can play well on this level. He's still a ROOKIE playing his first full year in the NHL, much like Jimmy Howard who is also 25. He's still the best player ever send to the minors and a late bloomer according to Mike Babcock.

The thing is you can't really make predictions like that. Or you can, but no one really has any reasons to believe them.

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Totally wrong. You probably want to think it's like that but it isn't. He plays on a line with Briere and Hartnell and he's been the engine of that line since they got united. Even Scott Hartnell got going once he was put on that line. If you don't want to believe your own eyes, then OK. But Leino does go to the hard areas, receives hit and he's done it since he game to the Flyers. As I said, once he started doing all that the points came after a little while. He's been many times in front of the net doing dirty work even when he has not gotten points out of it.

Lack of heart? Do you have a heart-o-meter back there or how did you measure his lack of heart? To me saying that someone doesn't have the heart means that someone doesn't even want to get it done. Kinda weird if he just chose to not work for it after first playing a season down in the AHL to even get a chance to play up here rather than going to the KHL for the big cash. Although, I doubt you even really ever "pulled for him".

You HOPE he doesn't turn into anything because of two reasons: a) he didn't get it done here and the trade would look too bad (although the trade is a steal already) b) you predicted that he won't even be an NHL player in the future. You've basically seen him play bad not even a full season and you somehow THINK that he will never turn into anything, though at same time he's leading the scoring among rookies in the playoffs.

Fringe NHLer AT BEST? Wow, last time he wasn't even an NHLer. Guess, things we changed. You don't even believe that prediction yourself. Also, I could predict that some star player is just on a hot streak and he suddenly drops out of the NHL without any arguments to back it up. The fact is you don't even know what kinda player the normal Ville Leino is. He proved last year and this post-season that he can play well on this level. He's still a ROOKIE playing his first full year in the NHL, much like Jimmy Howard who is also 25. He's still the best player ever send to the minors and a late bloomer according to Mike Babcock.

The thing is you can't really make predictions like that. Or you can, but no one really has any reasons to believe them.

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Was this actually a commercial? :blink:

If so, these commercials have gotten out of hand. First they show great moments from league history, and now they show Bufflin and Gomez scoring goals no one will remember in the future.

This better be a joke about Leino.

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