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Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

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Leino didnt change over night just from going to philly, why should he go in the corners in work hard when mostly every other guy on philly wouldnt hesitate.

I dunno. Ask Jussi Jokinen or Gillaume Latendresse how they changed basically overnight. Leino did change back to normal IMO. The same Leino we saw last year while he was up here.

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The only argument you use is that I'm biased. You probably don't even read the whole post because you can't admit being wrong in anything. I could as well say that you're biased because you hate him.

It's no point trying to argue with you as you do it like children.

I'm sorry, I'm not like the majority here who just give you -1 and say you're biased etc. when they can't make valid arguments.

I have given you solid, substantiated responses to EVERYTHING I have said... it's just gotten past the point in even trying to debate with you, because you always come back with the same, tired, old crap... I even said FLAT OUT - I will gladly admit I am wrong and eat my crow if he puts together a full season and proves me wrong... how is that biased? At least I'm man enough to man up and admit it when I AM wrong, you just sound like a broken record.

Keep trying though, you only make yourself sound like more of a Finnish slappy, who's unwilling to look at things from ANY other perspective, every time you post...

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Except he never said that. It was in reference to breaking out of his slump and he said something akin to 'I just need to score'. He never said or insinuated that he didn't need to work hard or play the tough areas. Just that those things weren't what he needed to get out of his funk. He said something that hundreds of other slumping players have said. You hear it all the time that a player just 'needs to get that first one' to break the ice, get the confidence back, etc.

Remember, Leino did at times earn some praise for his work while here. From Babs, Flip, Hank. It wasn't until January that Babs started to really get down on him.

He may not be the hardest worker ever, but I think more than that was just that he isn't particularly good at doing that kind of stuff. He's not that big or strong, and not a great skater. He was doing all that stuff early on, but just getting beat more often than not. Then I think he totally lost his confidence, and didn't respond well to the criticism. Seems like maybe he even got a little depressed. Perhaps he knew he was going to be shipped out when we got healthy and gave up. Certainly not a good way to respond, but I don't think it makes him a bad player or person. Little immature maybe, but that's the worst I'd say.

Now to defend Holland.

Are you suggesting that we never should have had Leino in the first place? Even if you are, both of them together wouldn't have been enough to keep either of Sammy or Hudler (maybe Sammy would have taken a little less, who knows), and it would have left us a player short.

Secondly, Leino and Willy were not supposed to be top 6 forwards. No one ever expected them to be. They were supposed to give us secondary scoring from the third line. They were only part of replacing some of the scoring lost. It was actually looking pretty good at first, up until Flip got hurt really. And when the injuries hit, we didn't have any other options. No, Leino wasn't ready, but what else were we supposed to do? Williams was one of the injuries, so he wasn't ever expected to step up.

And speaking of Williams... He scored 19 goals and 47 points the prior season. He knew the system (and had scored 58 points here only a few years ago). He was the RH shot Babs wanted for the 2nd PP unit. He was available at a price we could afford.

We can speculate all we want about who might have been a better pickup, but Willy was pretty much the only one out there who looked like he could fill what we were looking for. He was a better fit to play Flip and Leino than he was with the likes of Miller and Cleary or Bert. Who can say how he would have fared had he and Flip not been hurt? We can say in hindsight that we weren't looking for the right things, or we made the wrong choice, but we don't know that anything would have been any better.

Likewise, we can say now that we should have gotten rid of Willy instead of Leino, but when Willy came back from his injury he was playing pretty decent. (Still no results, but he wasn't playing bad.) He didn't really start to look bad until after the Olympics. And again, who can say if Leino would have ever improved if he had stayed?

The only thing that I wish could have happened differently was Maltby's surgery. He had to do that because we were still a hair over the cap when Lilja came back. I believe his salary was enough that if he had gotten the surgery sooner, we could have kept Leino and still been compliant when everyone was healthy. But I can't blame Kenny for that, since I don't think it was a sure thing at the time that Lilja was coming back.

Good points there definitely. But I just think that Leino and Williams were at the start of the season players that aren't good enough defensively to play on a defensive role and on the PK and then again not good enough offensively to be on the PP and provide enough scoring for a team that wants to win the Cup. There were too many question marks above them.

I mean we didn't have enough real top6 players. Zetterberg, Datsyuk were basically the only two. Holmstrom and Filppula were small question marks at the start of the season as well. We didn't know for sure that Holmstrom is gonna be the top6 player again, many guys were suggesting after last years playoffs that he could be even playing in the 4th line all season. Then we also didn't know if this was going to be "THE" year for Flip, and it actually kinda was but he was still injured. Bertuzzi was not a sure top6 at the start of the season for sure.

So IMO the problem was having too much secondary scoring instead of primary scoring. When you look at this years finalists for example. Flyers have Gagne, Carter, Briere and Richards that everyone knew were sure top6 guys already at the start of the season. Then they had guys like Hartnell, Giroux and Van Riemsdyk to provide that secondary scoring. Hawks had Kane, Toews, Sharp and Hossa that everyone knew were sure top6 guys as well. Then they had Byfuglien, Versteeg, Ladd, Brouwer to give that secondary scoring.

We lacked offense this year that's for sure. There are some questions for next year as well, but I'm hopeful guys like Helm can give some secondary scoring. I think Flip has become a real top6 guy finally and we will have Hudler back. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Filppula and Hudler. That's 4 real top6 guys. Then we have at least Cleary, Holmstrom/Bertuzzi (or both), possibly Helm and Abdelkader and possibly some UFA signing to provide that seconday scoring.

Edited by Finnish Wing

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Everyone was jumping around with joy when Holland traded leino, this guy was more of a scapegoat on here then kopecky. Obviously Holland felt the same way we did, and thought that he would atleast get a draft pick out of the guy.

Its unfortunante that he is doing well right now, but I think almost all of us would have accepted that Leino trade a few months ago.

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Everyone was jumping around with joy when Holland traded leino, this guy was more of a scapegoat on here then kopecky. Obviously Holland felt the same way we did, and thought that he would atleast get a draft pick out of the guy.

Its unfortunante that he is doing well right now, but I think almost all of us would have accepted that Leino trade a few months ago.

Why is it unfortunate that he's doing well? It's not like he's playing for the Hawks or anything. Why can't just wish him all the best? Because it was obvious that Leino wasn't gonna get it going here. There are no ifs and buts. Edited by Finnish Wing

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Why is it unfortunate that he's doing well? It's not like he's playing for the Hawks or anything. Why can't just wish him all the best? Because it was obvious that Leino wasn't gonna get it going here. There are no ifs and buts.

Its unfortunate that he's doing well because he spent time developing as a red wing, had high expectations and he played with us for just a few months. I am a Red wings fan, so naturally, I want everyone on my team to do well, and everyone else to play terribly.

I'm glad Leino is doing well, but yeah it's hard to see him to good when he showed so many signs of being a great player, and then we get a 5th round pick and a terrible defenceman in return.

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I have given you solid, substantiated responses to EVERYTHING I have said... it's just gotten past the point in even trying to debate with you, because you always come back with the same, tired, old crap... I even said FLAT OUT - I will gladly admit I am wrong and eat my crow if he puts together a full season and proves me wrong... how is that biased? At least I'm man enough to man up and admit it when I AM wrong, you just sound like a broken record.

Keep trying though, you only make yourself sound like more of a Finnish slappy, who's unwilling to look at things from ANY other perspective, every time you post...

I don't have to admit I'm wrong because I don't make stupid predictions like that. I never made any point prediction for Leino at the start of the season.

You can say I'm biased because of man-love and I can say you're biased because of man-hate. That's plus minus zero or something like that.

Is it "same tired old crap" because you don't have anything to argue against it or why? I don't make arguments like "he's lazy and sucks and has no heart" without anything to back them up.

It seems like you're trying even harder than I am. Your the one who started posting s*** about Leino in this thread as well and it has been the same thing in other threads too. You post some s*** about player, and I'm allowed to defend the player. I don't have to just sit back and watch while you make your personal opinions (taken from quotes from articles etc.) of some person sound like facts. Am I not allowed to make counter-arguments?

Because, you see, I'm not the one who started this thing in this thread either. You probably think that if you try long enough to make someone look bad it actually happens. I'm sorry to disappoint you there.

Edited by Finnish Wing

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I don't have to admit I'm wrong because I don't make stupid predictions like that. I never made any point prediction for Leino at the start of the season.

You can say I'm biased because of man-love and I can say you're biased because of man-hate. That's plus minus zero or something like that.

Is it "same tired old crap" because you don't have anything to argue against it or why? I don't make arguments like "he's lazy and sucks and has no heart" without anything to back them up.

It seems like you're trying even harder than I am. Your the one who started posting s*** about Leino in this thread as well and it has been the same thing in other threads too. You post some s*** about player, and I'm allowed to defend the player. I don't have to just sit back and watch while you make your personal opinions (taken from quotes from articles etc.) of some person sound like facts. Am I not allowed to make counter-arguments?

Because, you see, I'm not the one who started this thing in this thread either. You probably think that if you try long enough to make someone look bad it actually happens. I'm sorry to disappoint you there.

I'm not saying to admit you're wrong now - the verdict is still out, but will you be man enough to admit you're wrong when(if) the time comes? Or will you just make more excuses like you do every other time? - that's my point.

Next, I never said he's lazy and sucks - I said he looks like he's playing with no heart and isn't showing enough effort on the puck - that is on the ice, not opinion.

I completely believe that Leino will never be more than a fringe NHL'er at best, if an NHL'er at all, and I stand by that and of course I'm going to back that stance - all I EVER asked of you, was to go ahead and make a bold prediction of your own if you are so convinced of the opposite... but you can't/won't

I'm not "trying to make you look bad", you're doing that just fine on your own...

Edited by stevkrause

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I'm not saying to admit you're wrong now - the verdict is still out, but will you be man enough to admit you're wrong when(if) the time comes? Or will you just make more excuses like you do every other time? - that's my point.

Next, I never said he's lazy and sucks - I said he looks like he's playing with no heart and isn't showing enough effort on the puck - that is on the ice, not opinion.

I completely believe that Leino will never be more than a fringe NHL'er at best, if an NHL'er at all, and I stand by that and of course I'm going to back that stance - all I EVER asked of you, was to go ahead and make a bold prediction of your own if you are so convinced of the opposite... but you can't/won't

I'm not "trying to make you look bad", you're doing that just fine on your own...

You are bold to make predictions like that, but it's not the way I do things. The thing is I HOPE Leino does well. I can for example say that he will be an NHLer IF he continues working hard like has he's done now in the Flyers. Only he can decide it, so I'm not gonna make predictions like that. I never make predictions - whether it's the final score of the game or someone winning something etc.

You see, I don't make predictions about Red Wings at the start of the season either. The thing is I hope they'll do well, but I don't need to predict anything. But I can say however that IF they do "this" they're gonna win "that". Same thing with Leino and everything else.

That's why I think your prediction is not only bold but a little stupid as well. It's basically only a prediction without anything more to explain why it's going to happen.

I'm not saying you're trying to make ME look bad. You're trying to make Leino look bad with all those comments even while he's doing quite well. And I know for sure that there is much bitterness and hate behind those comments. That's why only Red Wings fans make these comments. As I said, I doubt for example Montreal fans would agree with you on that.

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No one should be surprised at what Leino is doing in Philly. He has good offensive instincts and is a good player. I remember only a couple of people sticking up for him around here, and now look at all of you. All it took was him playing with good players. Also, I think Philly's toughness has rubbed off on him and he digs a lot more now. Leino is a good fit for the Flyers. Kenny made the right choice at the time, considering the circumstances. I just can't see why he signed Jason Williams, it was a bad signing. Now, since Kenny says he wants a gritty fourth liner, that means that he's going to pick up a 35+ year old to fill that role.

FYI...the wings still have never won a cup without some type of enforcer on the team. Whether, it's a coincidence or not is a different story, but that's another debate.

That's right to much fancy pants finesse and no grind of sandpaper in the corners. This mold has grown old Kenny boy.

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You are bold to make predictions like that, but it's not the way I do things. The thing is I HOPE Leino does well. I can for example say that he will be an NHLer IF he continues working hard like has he's done now in the Flyers. Only he can decide it, so I'm not gonna make predictions like that. I never make predictions - whether it's the final score of the game or someone winning something etc.

You see, I don't make predictions about Red Wings at the start of the season either. The thing is I hope they'll do well, but I don't need to predict anything. But I can say however that IF they do "this" they're gonna win "that". Same thing with Leino and everything else.

That's why I think your prediction is not only bold but a little stupid as well. It's basically only a prediction without anything more to explain why it's going to happen.

I'm not saying you're trying to make ME look bad. You're trying to make Leino look bad with all those comments even while he's doing quite well. And I know for sure that there is much bitterness and hate behind those comments. That's why only Red Wings fans make these comments. As I said, I doubt for example Montreal fans would agree with you on that.

I only make predictions when I genuinely believe something... the same way I predicted that Flip will be a 70 pt scorer in this league...

fans in Montreal have never seen him until now and their glimpse would be based off of a hot streak, so of course he's going to look better from an outsider's perspective...

As I have said all along, he is playing well right now, but I look at it as a hot streak and anomaly and think water will find it's level and he will return to what he was here - a 20 or less point a season player who gets those points in bunches when he has talent around him, but takes shifts off and plays when he wants to, eventually getting him relegated to 3rd or 4th line minutes, then the press box after several games of lackluster play... what I really think is going to happen, is that he will put up a lackluster season next year, eventually being scratched and then waived and will go back overseas by 2012... and like I said then - I will GLADLY stand up and admit if I was wrong - I firmly believe in voicing what I believe and standing by it, not just over ridiculous message boards and a game, but in life as a whole - If you can't stand for something, you'll fall for nothing.

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I only make predictions when I genuinely believe something... the same way I predicted that Flip will be a 70 pt scorer in this league...

fans in Montreal have never seen him until now and their glimpse would be based off of a hot streak, so of course he's going to look better from an outsider's perspective...

As I have said all along, he is playing well right now, but I look at it as a hot streak and anomaly and think water will find it's level and he will return to what he was here - a 20 or less point a season player who gets those points in bunches when he has talent around him, but takes shifts off and plays when he wants to, eventually getting him relegated to 3rd or 4th line minutes, then the press box after several games of lackluster play... what I really think is going to happen, is that he will put up a lackluster season next year, eventually being scratched and then waived and will go back overseas by 2012... and like I said then - I will GLADLY stand up and admit if I was wrong - I firmly believe in voicing what I believe and standing by it, not just over ridiculous message boards and a game, but in life as a whole - If you can't stand for something, you'll fall for nothing.

You can have your opinion, that's fine for me. The biggest difference here is probably the thing that you think he's on a hot streak now while I think he was on a cold streak earlier this year.

I could actually make a little prediction, now that I think of it. My prediction: the Leino we see now is closer to the real Leino than what we saw earlier this season in Detroit. There. That's my prediction, not too bold or anything. And I'll definitely admit being wrong if it comes to that.

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I dunno. Ask Jussi Jokinen or Gillaume Latendresse how they changed basically overnight. Leino did change back to normal IMO. The same Leino we saw last year while he was up here.

LOL I dont have to ask him, Jokinen always had the potential it was INJURYS in the last two seasons that held him back, he didnt change over night , he just stayed healthy, and guileaume latendresse has only two seasons where he played more then 70 games, so calm down buddy those examples are absolute garbage.

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Guest Crymson

Ken Holland has done nothing but Fuck this team up lately. They won the cup in 2008 despite him, not because of him.

I never directly addressed this part of your post. It proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are an irrational, spoiled complainer. Yeah, they won the Cup in spite of him, riiiight... because, you know, the signings of Samuelsson, Cleary, Lilja, Drake and Lebda were irrelevant to that team, and his draftings and retention of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Filppula, Franzen and Helm also made zero contribution to the Cup victory of that year. And trading for Stuart at the '08 trade deadline for virtually nothing instead of selling the farm for other players was a terrible idea also! Indeed, all of the above players continue to be totally useless to this team. You're right! (Note that this paragraph is utterly dripping in sarcasm, though I suspect that this is obvious).

What a totally nonsensical statement.

I blame Holland. He should have sent Williams to waivers and if he cleared let him stay in GR. Holland dropped the ball with Quincey and now with Leino. I sure hope he does not give Homer a multi-year contract considering his poor health and that he is 37 (I think) years old.

Everyone seems to forget that Quincey was worthless when he was here. Worthless! He got to play many games in the '07 playoffs, and he was totally unremarkable. When four of our starting six on defense went down in February of '08, both Quincey and Meech got to play a lot. Quincey was unproductive, whereas Meech became a top-pairing defenseman. Meech simply outplayed Quincey in every way, both in the big leagues and in the minors, and Quincey didn't even show a glimmer of the offensive talent he has exhibited with LA and Colorado. I think you really don't know anything of the history of this situation. I would appreciate it if you would only discuss subjects on which you are informed.

I think that with Leino, too, you are engaging in retrospective criticism. It is totally unreasonable. Holland cannot see the future. Leino was unproductive---and, worse, he was totally lazy. This is why he was traded.

That said, I think you and many others attack Holland for whatever mistakes he may make and ignore the fact that he's still the most successful GM in the league.

Edited by Crymson

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LOL I dont have to ask him, Jokinen always had the potential it was INJURYS in the last two seasons that held him back, he didnt change over night , he just stayed healthy, and guileaume latendresse has only two seasons where he played more then 70 games, so calm down buddy those examples are absolute garbage.

Funny. Because Jokinen himself has said that the absolute biggest thing for him was gaining his confidence back and getting a fresh strat. And by the way, Leino has always had the potential as well, even though not the same level of Jokinen's. There are TONS of other examples out there about losing confidence, gaining it back and it affecting your game. If you know anything about being an athlete you'd know that having confidence is HUGE.

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Funny. Because Jokinen himself has said that the absolute biggest thing for him was gaining his confidence back and getting a fresh strat. And by the way, Leino has always had the potential as well, even though not the same level of Jokinen's. There are TONS of other examples out there about losing confidence, gaining it back and it affecting your game. If you know anything about being an athlete you'd know that having confidence is HUGE.

His confidence was shook because everytime he got something started a little he got injured, that would crush anyones confident, hes always been a player with lots of upside. Fact is hes been injured badly the last 2 years dude, its a fresh

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Are you implying that Leino chose to leave?

I think he just wanted to play on a line with skill players, and Babcock wouldnt let him do it without first serving time on the forth line with scrubs. Ville will be a 30 goal scorer in this league, and we gave him away. I'm getting sick of Keeny giving away good talent for nothing. Or maybe its Babcock's coaching. How could we keep Meech in favor of Quincy, or Williams instead of Leino? How can the Red Wings as an organization so blatently miss talent like that?!

This coming from someone named Manny>Ozzie...

Leino was lazy and sucked as a Wing. Therefore, he is no longer a Wing. Simple as that.

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Guest Crymson

This coming from someone named Manny>Ozzie...

Leino was lazy and sucked as a Wing. Therefore, he is no longer a Wing. Simple as that.

I see the OP has not shown up to claim responsibility for his words, thus implicitly confirming that his diatribe consisted of nothing more than senseless complaining.

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I see the OP has not shown up to claim responsibility for his words, thus implicitly confirming that his diatribe consisted of nothing more than senseless complaining.

He's in a holding pattern. Crossing his fingers and praying that Chicago forgets that they faced him a bunch of times this season. Or did they? He could have been benched I suppose.

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