351 replies to this topic

[dat's sick]

Meh when it comes to the deal.

Lidstrom is worth a lot but I was hoping for like a 4 mil deal.

I can dream, can't I?

Yes you can, but you should probably stop dropping so much acid.

[Feldmarschall]

The fact he DIDN'T retire and didn't leave us in the lurch is something no one is addressing. I wonder why. Oh right -- $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You're implying that the only reason he didn't retire is the cash? His sole motivation in life is money?

[Xitium]

It's funny though, on every other board/hockey related website, they say something like "he's still a very good d man but 6million+ at 40years old, i thought he would take a discount"

Only on LGW most approve this contract and embrace it with open arms... but maybe that's because ya'll see something in him that others don't...

"Nicklas Lidstrom won the Stanley Cup in '02. He won the Cup in '08. I don't know how many Norris trophies he's won, but throughout that entire time, throughout the entire decade, where he's only missed a handful of games, he was the Red Wings' best player. He's one of the top defensemen on both ends of the rink. He's got really good instincts, and he's incredibly skilled. He's a really, really intelligent hockey player. Nick is your best player in training camp. He's your best player in preseason. He's your best player in the regular season. He's your best player in the playoffs. I'm not sure what else he could do."

- Steve Yzerman

[Electrophile]

You're implying that the only reason he didn't retire is the cash? His sole motivation in life is money?

I'm saying the reason no one is talking about how much his absence would hurt the team is because they're too busy talking about money.

[Feldmarschall]

I'm saying the reason no one is talking about how much his absence would hurt the team is because they're too busy talking about money.

Alright. It was a strangely-worded statement, I didn't see what you meant. Nevermind.

[wingsownnhl43]

My thoughts.....

Could Lidstrom have gotten $7-8 million on the open market? Yes.

Is he worth the $6.2 contract he signed for today? Yes.

Am I dissapointed he didint take more of a pay cut to make room for additional and much needed depth when he himself said he's returning to win another SC? Yes.

Edited by wingsownnhl43, 01 June 2010 - 06:35 PM.

[heed316]

Talking with Lidstrom during the Tigers game right now...

[wingsownnhl43]

I agree with you on Nick being underappreciated by Red Wings fans throughout his career. With that said,how much longer am I going to have to hear about how Nick is our best player? When will the Rosey Colored Wings fans acknowledge that he has declined even a little bit??

I may be splitting hairs here, but to me, Pavel has without a doubt surpassed him as our best player.

[Mitchmac33]

First off I would like to remind everyone that Nick Lidstrom is NOT the best Dman in the league now. Anyone who thinks so has a serious bias towards the wings. Is he still good? Yes. However, he got exposed this year and while i think he can do better, i don't think he is worth 6.5 million.

Howard has proved capable, Sammy was a solid role-player and not too much more and Holland is looking to add a Drake-type player to the fold. No one's underestimating what those guys did. You're just not factoring into the mix what they'll have next year to replace them.

Howard proved capable this year. But who is to say he will next year. A lot of times rookie goalies play well their first year and then struggle the next. Look at Tim Thomas (who i realize wasn't a rookie). He won the veizna and then lost his starting job. It's not guarenteed that Howard will be good next year.

I think NeverForgetMac has brought a lot of proper perspective to this duscussion. Allow me to expanded upon his original retorts.

What is honestly fueling this argument? The fans that are upset regarding the terms of Lidstrom's contract prescribe primarily into 1 of 3 possible ideologies - or some combination thereof.

1) "He should have taken less for the betterment of the team" - The Hometown Discount Clause

Okay, certainly there has been some precedence of this. However, lets shape this argument in a more appropriate context. Lets say you are a factory line worker for General Motors. You've worked and dedicated the prime years of your life to the betterment of the company at the sacrifice of your physical health and meaningful time with your family. You are the most senior member of your assembly team and have the added responsibility of leadership which is rightfully deserved and are considered one of the finest, if not the very best at what you do. You are the receipient of countless company commendations and your pension is securly set for retirement. At this point in your career, you have nothing left to prove and look forward to a life of leisure that is well deserved.

Now, you have worked yourself to the point where you gross $70,000.00 a year. You plan to retire but the company and management at General Motors has asked you to return because they respect you and the quality of the work that you produce. And ask you to come back for another year at $60,0000 - or roughly a 14% pay cut. A person of your quality is not easily replaced, and you are rewarded for you years of dedicated, unfallable service by taking a reduced salary to do everything that you were asked to do for the last 40 years.

Basic Labor Economics states - The Marginal Utility of Free Time Expontentially Increases the Less You Have Time you Have. That is, as each additional hour you work - your free time becomes more valuable because you have less of it - and thus more money is needed to incentivize you to sacrifice your free time. Hence, the concept of Overtime. If you only have 10 hours of free time a week - you protect those hours pretty fiercly and it would take an increase in rate to convince you to work.
So, if you were this Assembly line worker - would you take a 14% pay cut when the value of your free time (your retirement) dictates that an increase in salary is needed for you to sacrifice an additional year?

The obvious response is "Well, it's different for the every day worker because he's a Millionaire! He doesn't need the money!"

Yes, it's true - he is not hurting financially. But he also doesn't have any additional skills besides hockey. He had no trade or schooling to speak of - so what we does now is the money that he receives for the rest of his life unless he takes some type of organizational position in hockey. Assuming he lives to the mid 80's - that means he must live for the next 45 years off the money that he has accumulated - that is a massively long retirement horizon. As your retirement horizon increases - so does uncertainty. Take for instance the crisis of 2007 - Sergei Federov lost over $43M to fraudlent investment and market fluctuations. Or the average American who had their savings and pensions crushed by overextending debt by the financials or the liquidity crunch that followed?

What's Lidstrom going to do? Car commercials? Puck Signings? Lidstrom's decision to take a couple of million more may seem "greedy" to someone who doesn't have a net worth of $10M - but he is also doing his best to secure his and his family's financial future for the next four decades and every cent counts.

Like NeverForgetMac says - It's easy to tell someone else to take less money when it's not you.
Lidstrom's decision - and I don't believe it was monetarily motivated (even though he would be very justified in doing so) - is because he loves Detroit and respects the organization. Concurrently, the Detroit Red Wings value his contribution and all that he had done for them and rewarded him with his salary request - because of all that he has done for them and not insult him with petty contract negotiations. What is tragic, is that despite all this man has done for this organization and how much he has contributed to the joy for being a Red Wing fans - there are those who question his motivations and unfairly accuse him of being selfish for not "sacrficing" more.

To be continued...

Where's your motivation to come back? Is this general motors worker trying to win a championship? No. I'm sorry but this is still a bad comparison. The GM worker is asked to come back to help them make more money and run the company smoothly. Nick Lidstrom is asked to come back to help win a championship.
Right, cuz living with (we'll say) 30 million is so much different then living with 28 or 27. Lidstrom and his family are set for life. I'm pretty sure they can live off of a multi million bank account.

All in all I also am pretty disappointed with the value. I think Nick needs to be back to 2008 form to be worth his 6.5 or whatever million dollars. I just don't understand the thought process that goes in to these players when coming back. Do you wanna make money or win a cup? if you wanna win, take a cut.

[Wings4Life19]

I agree with you on Nick being underappreciated by Red Wings fans throughout his career. With that said,how much longer am I going to have to hear about how Nick is our best player? When will the Rosey Colored Wings fans acknowledge that he has declined even a little bit??

I may be splitting hairs here, but to me, Pavel has without a doubt surpassed him as our best player.

I see him as our best player based on how much the team would suffer if that player were not playing, the wings would be much worse without lidstrom. the loss of pav would hurt alot but lidstrom means much more to the team. Brodeur isnt the best player on NJ, parise is, but when he retires nobody will be able to replace what he has done for the devils

Edited by Wings4Life19, 01 June 2010 - 06:49 PM.

[Shoreline]

It's funny though, on every other board/hockey related website, they say something like "he's still a very good d man but 6million+ at 40years old, i thought he would take a discount"

Only on LGW most approve this contract and embrace it with open arms... but maybe that's because ya'll see something in him that others don't...

Decades before your time of watching hockey there was a player named Steve Yzerman who took a discount. He did so not only for the team but because he wasn't even remotely one of the top contributors point-wise anymore, and his role was essentially just leader. It doesn't diminish in any sense his value to the team as a leader, but Nick is not the same situation because he's still one of the top players in the league and especially on this team. His payment is related to both performance and leadership, and what he was paid before was already a discount -- this being a further discount (7.6 to 6.2), somewhat relative to his slightly diminished performance last season (I believe), mr. pessimist.

Of course, you go ahead and cite every "other board/hockey related website". It's obvious you just started paying attention to hockey when you joined the forums. This isn't LGW's fault -- it's yours.

As for the other disappointed folks -- would I have liked Lids to take 4m per? Sure. I told people though that this would never happen so long as he is one of the top contributors of the team. It isn't fair to him to ask that. I said he would take a discount (think of it like depreciation) but nothing like 4m per unless he totally bombs.

Edited by Shoreline, 01 June 2010 - 06:51 PM.

[wingsownnhl43]

I see him as our best player based on how much the team would suffer if that player were not playing, the wings would be much worse without lidstrom. the loss of pav would hurt alot but lidstrom means much more to the team

Ok then he's our most valuble player. He isnt our best.

[Carman]

Ok then he's our most valuble player. He isnt our best.

Depends on how much you value a certain position.

(Just for example off points)

Is the 24th best foward better than the 9th best defenseman?

[Wings4Life19]

Ok then he's our most valuble player. He isnt our best.

thats sort the argument that alot of people have over the heart trophy. does it go to the most valuable player or the best player?

[king_malice]

I just hope one day after he reitres he comes back as a D coach maybe a few years after taking a break he will get the itch to get back like most greats do, come back and help out/teach guys like Kindl,Smith and other young guys we will have in the line up.



if the Cap goes up by 2 mill maybe something like this would be ok.


Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)
* Tomas Holmstrom ($2.125m) / * Todd Bertuzzi ($1.650m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m)
* Justin Abdelkader ($1.000m) / * Darren Helm ($0.899m) / * Adam Burish ($0.775m)
Mattias Ritola ($0.517m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
* Carlo Coliacovo ($1.555m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m) / Jimmy Howard ($0.717m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 22; CAP: $56.8m; PAYROLL: $58.384m; CAP ROOM: $-1.584m BONUSES: $0.000m



Franzen-Zetterberg-Holmstrom
Hudler-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Cleary-Filppula-Abdelkader
Burish-Draper-Helm or Bursih-Helm-Ritola (Draper subs)
Ritola

Stuart-Rafalski
Lidstrom-Kronwall
Coliacovo-Ericcson
Kindl

Howard
Osgood

[Drake_Marcus]

D-MEN
Scott Niedermayer 35 ANA $6,000,000
Sergei Gonchar 35 PIT $5,500,000
Derek Morris 30 PHO $3,300,000
Anton Volchenkov 27 OTT $3,200,000
Milan Jurcina 26 WAS $1,375,000

All of those names are inferior to a 40 year old Nick Lidstrom... so yeah, I'd say it's a pretty weak FA class for d-men.

[wingsownnhl43]

Depends on how much you value a certain position.

(Just for example off points)

Is the 24th best foward better than the 9th best defenseman?

You dont go off points in determining how good a player is. I like your posts on here carman, but you cant actually value Pavel Datsyuk in the 20 range.

He is easily top 5.

Edited by wingsownnhl43, 01 June 2010 - 06:57 PM.

[Ricke71]

Do not forget he will probably move back to Sweden after he retires. Nick needs every cent he can get because he will be taxed to death.

[Drake_Marcus]

Let me answer that for you now.



Yes.

Exactly. Our definition of hardship is losing in the first round... we're pretty lucky to have that as our toughest time in the last 20 years.

[Shoreline]

It's arguable if he's the very "best" on this team from last season/playoff performance, but he's still amongst the best for sure. I don't see how constructive a debate on this would be, so that's all I'm gonna say about that.

The discount not only pertains to a team-related move but also correlates with his dwindling performance. That 1.2m can help sign at least one other person. Granted, it's not making room for anotherf****** all star but you take what you can get. He deserves 6m. I didn't get why people, during last season's salary debate about what Lids might take in his next contract, believed he would or should take 4m, and I still do not -- if it's about salary cap space, it's not his job to make room for more people. That's Kenny's job -- that's Mike Illitch's job. Cap room is not part of this captain's responsibility. He's a player and he's going to rightfully get what he's worth, which is a discount and represents what he should be paid. People don't get what the salary he WAS getting before was already a discount given he could have made at least a few million more than 7.6m per, if he were in any sense greedy.