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Yzerman also wanting Pat Verbeek


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#21 dat's sick

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 01:57 PM

Why not? Yzerman starts stealing guys from the Red Wings just to put them to Tampa Bay. Why should Holland allow it? Just because Yzerman is a nice guy? Hell no. Let him prove he can find his own staff, not just steal them from organization he just left.

Yes, the Red Wings organization should be like a prison! Allow no one to leave alive!

There's no telling if Yzerman will actually be able to "steal" these people, they have a will of their own you know and might not want to leave the Wings. Not allowing him to talk to them at all would be crazy though, I wouldn't want to work for someone who doesn't allow other people to offer me jobs.

#22 CenterIce

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 03:16 PM

When McClellan left the wings for SJ we didn't just let him take people with him.


We did. He took Jay Woodcroft, the then Video Coordinator, to be an assistant coach.

I guess I was left in the dark, I never knew Pat Verbeek was part of the Red Wings orginization.


Been that way for a few years now. You occasionally get a glimpse of him on TV, when they are showing Holland.
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#23 Yzermania19

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 05:37 PM

I'd hardly call asking the Wings for permission to talk to two guys "raiding" the organization. This kind of stuff is done all the time in hockey, and for all we know other GM's have asked to speak with other Wings' execs. We just haven't heard about it because the other GM's aren't Stevie.

Also, just because he is asking for permission to talk to these guys, it doesn't mean they'll accept his offer. Ryan Martin probably will, but Stevie's allegedly offering him a promotion over his current Wings job (assistant GM vs. capologist), and like Stevie, Martin probably knows there's not a lot of room to move up in the Wings' organization.
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#24 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 07:42 PM

I'd hardly call asking the Wings for permission to talk to two guys "raiding" the organization. This kind of stuff is done all the time in hockey, and for all we know other GM's have asked to speak with other Wings' execs. We just haven't heard about it because the other GM's aren't Stevie.

Also, just because he is asking for permission to talk to these guys, it doesn't mean they'll accept his offer. Ryan Martin probably will, but Stevie's allegedly offering him a promotion over his current Wings job (assistant GM vs. capologist), and like Stevie, Martin probably knows there's not a lot of room to move up in the Wings' organization.


Really? Because they're Red Wings employees and he's trying to get them to defect to his team. That's raiding the organization. It's been, what, a week? Two? And he's already gone after two Wings employees. How many Wings employees will he have gone after a year from now?

The very least he could do is keep his hand out of our cookie jar. Period.
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#25 Doc Holliday

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 07:45 PM

Really? Because they're Red Wings employees and he's trying to get them to defect to his team. That's raiding the organization. It's been, what, a week? Two? And he's already gone after two Wings employees. How many Wings employees will he have gone after a year from now?

The very least he could do is keep his hand out of our cookie jar. Period.


Yeah, how dare he try to get people to work for him who he is familiar with.

Damn him!

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#26 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 07:58 PM

Yeah, how dare he try to get people to work for him who he is familiar with.

Damn him!


Are they currently under contract to the Wings for next season?

If they're contractually obliged to work for the Wings why the hell would you paint this like he's being cool? He has no right to try and raid the organization now that he's in charge of TB especially because he has inside information and relationships with the Wings employees-- the NHL has specific rules against doing that and it's also a ****** move.

Recruiting employees under contract to another organization is an aggressive move no matter how you want to paint it.

If he wants to "try to get people to work for him who he is familiar with" he can wait until they're not contractually obliged to work for another team or he can do this and look like a ******.

Let me make one thing clear-- being a legend who's beloved by the Wings fans and ownership does not give Steve Yzerman any more right to try to poach employees than Brian Burke has. In fact, he owes Holland the professional courtesy of not using the knowledge he gained of the Wings organization while employed in Detroit to try and steal employees.

Edit: Are Wings fans going to give Yzerman a free pass to make aggressive managerial moves aimed at Detroit just because he used to play here? That's retarded. When he's working as the GM of Tampa he has zero concern for Detroit. Don't think that he would hold off making a move the hurts us if it helps his team because he wouldn't. He knows who he is employed for. Yzerman the GM wears a Lightning jersey.

Edited by Drake_Marcus, 03 June 2010 - 08:01 PM.

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#27 Yzermania19

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 08:08 PM

A ******? Please. This happens all the time in business, and hockey is a business. An example - two former colleagues of mine started their own firm a couple of years ago and took HALF the people from their old firm with them. Now that's what I call raiding the cookie jar. But it happens! And I'm sure it happens a lot more in pro sports than any of us hear about. We're just hearing about this because it's the Wings and it's Stevie. That's all. If it was Joe Blow GM of the Podunkville Pirahnas or something it might be a footnote at the end of one of George Malick's columns, if that.

Just for the record, I am an Yzerman fan and a Red Wing fan. Stevie is the reason I became a Red Wing fan. I understand his concern is now Tampa Bay and I feel like I now have a second team to cheer for. I want BOTH teams to succeed. However, I am not surprised that he is asking for permission to talk to a couple of guys from the Wings team. Not at all. And no, it doesn't bother me. I don't consider that raiding.

Besides, the Wings could have said no when Stevie asked to talk to Martin and Verbeek, and he would have understood. He's on the other side of the table now.

Edited by Yzermania19, 03 June 2010 - 08:17 PM.

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#28 Buppy

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 08:46 PM

Are they currently under contract to the Wings for next season?

If they're contractually obliged to work for the Wings why the hell would you paint this like he's being cool? He has no right to try and raid the organization now that he's in charge of TB especially because he has inside information and relationships with the Wings employees-- the NHL has specific rules against doing that and it's also a ****** move.

Recruiting employees under contract to another organization is an aggressive move no matter how you want to paint it.

If he wants to "try to get people to work for him who he is familiar with" he can wait until they're not contractually obliged to work for another team or he can do this and look like a ******.

Let me make one thing clear-- being a legend who's beloved by the Wings fans and ownership does not give Steve Yzerman any more right to try to poach employees than Brian Burke has. In fact, he owes Holland the professional courtesy of not using the knowledge he gained of the Wings organization while employed in Detroit to try and steal employees.

Edit: Are Wings fans going to give Yzerman a free pass to make aggressive managerial moves aimed at Detroit just because he used to play here? That's retarded. When he's working as the GM of Tampa he has zero concern for Detroit. Don't think that he would hold off making a move the hurts us if it helps his team because he wouldn't. He knows who he is employed for. Yzerman the GM wears a Lightning jersey.


Nothing '******'-like about it. Happens all the time I'm sure. It's not against any rules to ask permission to talk to someone. Do scouts and 'capologists' even have contracts? If they do, it's not the same as a player contract. No cap on front office salaries, nor prohibition on renegotiating or disolving contracts.

Like a previous poster said, who wants to work for an organization that won't allow you to talk to someone about a possible promotion?

It's not a ****** move for Steve, or anyone else for that matter, to offer a job to anyone in our organization, provided they don't break any rules doing so. Don't be surprised if Steve (or someone else) makes a pitch for MacClean too. We don't have any right to hold people back if someone can make them a better offer. If we want to keep people on the management and coaching side, we just need to make the best offer.

#29 Doc Holliday

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:10 PM

Are they currently under contract to the Wings for next season?


I would think matters like these would be more relateable to actual desk jobs instead of player contracts.

If they're contractually obliged to work for the Wings why the hell would you paint this like he's being cool? He has no right to try and raid the organization now that he's in charge of TB especially because he has inside information and relationships with the Wings employees-- the NHL has specific rules against doing that and it's also a ****** move.


If in a business you can't allow yourself to make some "douchey" moves then you aren't going to last long.

R

ecruiting employees under contract to another organization is an aggressive move no matter how you want to paint it.


And that is the nature of the beast.

If he wants to "try to get people to work for him who he is familiar with" he can wait until they're not contractually obliged to work for another team or he can do this and look like a ******.


Why wait if he can get them now?

Let me make one thing clear-- being a legend who's beloved by the Wings fans and ownership does not give Steve Yzerman any more right to try to poach employees than Brian Burke has. In fact, he owes Holland the professional courtesy of not using the knowledge he gained of the Wings organization while employed in Detroit to try and steal employees.


It's not stealing if they go at will. And I'm not giving him a free pass. I'm saying he is acting like a business man and though I don't like having our guys get "poached" that is business. And he owes Hollland nada because, like you say, he wears a Lightning jersey now.

Edit: Are Wings fans going to give Yzerman a free pass to make aggressive managerial moves aimed at Detroit just because he used to play here? That's retarded. When he's working as the GM of Tampa he has zero concern for Detroit. Don't think that he would hold off making a move the hurts us if it helps his team because he wouldn't. He knows who he is employed for. Yzerman the GM wears a Lightning jersey.


You mean to tell me Yzerman is going to make moves to try and help his team? BLASPHEMOUS!

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#30 Yzermania19

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:26 PM

Hey, here's a thought - maybe a couple of the guys (Martin and Verbeek, perhaps) told Stevie, "look, you get a GM job, I want to come work for you." Maybe Stevie's just making good on a couple of promises.

If the Wings are willing to let them talk to Steve (or any other team, for that matter), and they want to go, then there's nothing underhanded, secretive, sneaky, poachy or raid-like about it. Just like the Lightning approaching the Wings to get permission to talk to Stevie last month that set all this in motion. It's really no different - just a mutual decision between the heads of two corporations.

Geez, if people are making this big a deal about front office people, I hate to see what will happen when Stevie comes to the Wings for the first time with a trade proposal. Yeesh. :scared:

Edited by Yzermania19, 03 June 2010 - 09:29 PM.

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#31 HankthaTank

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:36 PM

Yeah lets pump the brakes a tad. Stevie, I am sure has his followers regardless to what we think in this whole thing. So he gets the job, in the past they (Verbeek Martin etc.) said they would go with him, and there you have it. Who knows what the situation is? But to say 'douchey' Holy Jumping to Conlcusions on LGW! wouldn't ever happen! Posted Image Posted Image

Edited by HankthaTank, 03 June 2010 - 09:37 PM.

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#32 thomaz5

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 10:19 PM

Please stop. :lol:

Edited by thomaz5, 03 June 2010 - 10:20 PM.


#33 HelmerFan

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 10:28 PM

Hey, here's a thought - maybe a couple of the guys (Martin and Verbeek, perhaps) told Stevie, "look, you get a GM job, I want to come work for you." Maybe Stevie's just making good on a couple of promises.

If the Wings are willing to let them talk to Steve (or any other team, for that matter), and they want to go, then there's nothing underhanded, secretive, sneaky, poachy or raid-like about it. Just like the Lightning approaching the Wings to get permission to talk to Stevie last month that set all this in motion. It's really no different - just a mutual decision between the heads of two corporations.

Geez, if people are making this big a deal about front office people, I hate to see what will happen when Stevie comes to the Wings for the first time with a trade proposal. Yeesh. :scared:


In a trade you get something in return, in a raid your butt just hurts.

I dont think Steve is a ****** or tryin to be sneaky, but I also dont think it is ok to leave an organization then try to get peeps you like from it.

If you want so many of our front office guys maybe you shoulda waited a few years?!?!?!

#34 CaliWingsNut

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 10:38 PM

Hey, here's a thought - maybe a couple of the guys (Martin and Verbeek, perhaps) told Stevie, "look, you get a GM job, I want to come work for you." Maybe Stevie's just making good on a couple of promises.

If the Wings are willing to let them talk to Steve (or any other team, for that matter), and they want to go, then there's nothing underhanded, secretive, sneaky, poachy or raid-like about it. Just like the Lightning approaching the Wings to get permission to talk to Stevie last month that set all this in motion. It's really no different - just a mutual decision between the heads of two corporations.

Geez, if people are making this big a deal about front office people, I hate to see what will happen when Stevie comes to the Wings for the first time with a trade proposal. Yeesh. :scared:


I agree.
It wasn't exactly a secret that Yzerman was looking for a GM position. It's very possible that they may have previously shown interest in working for Steve before his departure.

I don't consider him hiring a couple of guys from the Wings "poaching". He's going about it properly... Hell, most of you never knew the wings had a cap accountant, or that Verbeek worked for the wings, but now you're all worried about them leaving.

Edited by CaliWingsNut, 03 June 2010 - 10:38 PM.

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#35 Buppy

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 11:03 PM

In a trade you get something in return, in a raid your butt just hurts.

I dont think Steve is a ****** or tryin to be sneaky, but I also dont think it is ok to leave an organization then try to get peeps you like from it.

If you want so many of our front office guys maybe you shoulda waited a few years?!?!?!


What was he supposed to do? Put an add in the paper? Hang out at the unemployment office hoping an out-of-work capologist walks in? People in these positions usually come from similar positions in other organizations. NHL, other hockey leagues, other sports, other businesses where similar knowledge/ability is used. It's no more 'raiding' us as it would be raiding anyone else. Would you all be upset if you heard he was talking to someone from Chicago or San Jose or Pittsburgh?

Maybe if we want so many of our front office guys to stay here, we should make them a better offer. (And keep in mind that neither Martin nor Verbeek have actually left yet.)

#36 Jedi

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 11:17 PM

I can't say I'm too familiar with Verbeek's work as a scout (i.e., anyone in the organization that he scouted/recommended), but I can't imagine he's irreplaceable if Detroit gives Yzerman permission to talk to him.

I know one thing though. No way we let Stevie take Hakan Andersson. He is definitely one of those irreplaceable pieces.

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#37 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 12:17 AM

You mean to tell me Yzerman is going to make moves to try and help his team? BLASPHEMOUS!


You mean the exact thing I already said? My issue is with people who have the Stevie Yzerman of today confused with the Steve Yzerman of 5 years ago... I really don't see how your sarcasm applies to me. I'm the one saying that Stevie is thinking of Tampa first.

The Wings don't owe Tampa GM Yzerman anything.

If he's going to play hardball and try to poach from the Wings they shouldn't treat him any different than any other hostile executive.

My whole point was that these tactics are hostile business tactics-- there's no possible way to deny it. I hope Holland gives no quarter.

And for the record I'm assuming scouts and capologists have contracts since Holland, Nill and the rest of the upper management is signed to fixed term contracts.
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#38 dropkickshanahans

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 01:29 AM

You mean the exact thing I already said? My issue is with people who have the Stevie Yzerman of today confused with the Steve Yzerman of 5 years ago... I really don't see how your sarcasm applies to me. I'm the one saying that Stevie is thinking of Tampa first.

The Wings don't owe Tampa GM Yzerman anything.

If he's going to play hardball and try to poach from the Wings they shouldn't treat him any different than any other hostile executive.

My whole point was that these tactics are hostile business tactics-- there's no possible way to deny it. I hope Holland gives no quarter.

And for the record I'm assuming scouts and capologists have contracts since Holland, Nill and the rest of the upper management is signed to fixed term contracts.


You sound a little scared that he might take more of our members. I am a little too, but hey, that's business. People come and people go, and they get replaced. Happens all the time in sports. I know in the NFL, if a coach is fired and gets hired by another team, that coach fire the teams current staff and take his old staff with him from the other team too, because those are the people he knows best and trusts. It's just the way things work.

But I wouldn't get too worked up right now about Stevie taking two people that nobody on this board even knew we had.

#39 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 02:08 AM

You sound a little scared that he might take more of our members. I am a little too, but hey, that's business. People come and people go, and they get replaced. Happens all the time in sports. I know in the NFL, if a coach is fired and gets hired by another team, that coach fire the teams current staff and take his old staff with him from the other team too, because those are the people he knows best and trusts. It's just the way things work.

But I wouldn't get too worked up right now about Stevie taking two people that nobody on this board even knew we had.


After a few weeks he's only gone after two guys (that we know of). I don't like the emerging pattern.
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#40 Buppy

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 06:52 AM

You mean the exact thing I already said? My issue is with people who have the Stevie Yzerman of today confused with the Steve Yzerman of 5 years ago... I really don't see how your sarcasm applies to me. I'm the one saying that Stevie is thinking of Tampa first.

The Wings don't owe Tampa GM Yzerman anything.

If he's going to play hardball and try to poach from the Wings they shouldn't treat him any different than any other hostile executive.

My whole point was that these tactics are hostile business tactics-- there's no possible way to deny it. I hope Holland gives no quarter.

And for the record I'm assuming scouts and capologists have contracts since Holland, Nill and the rest of the upper management is signed to fixed term contracts.


No, they don't owe Yzerman anything. But they do owe current employees the courtesy of allowing them to get better jobs. We have no right to hold people back. Contracts or no, refusing to allow our people to pursue better opportunities would be a '******' move, and would likely ensure that those people left when their contracts (if they have them) are up anyway.

You're the one getting hung up on it being Yzerman. It's no more 'hostile' a tactic than it was for Vinik to offer Yzerman the GM position in the first place. Were you bitching about that? Were you bitching when the Sharks 'poached' Mclellen? This is no different. We're not doing Yzerman a favor, we're showing some respect for our current employees, as any decent organization would.





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