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jroach17

Why Holmstrom

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In this day and age of big speedy forwards, and great two way players, why in the world would the Wings resign Holmstrom? He is only good for the powerplay, he is a liability on defense, & my grandma can skate faster than him. This was our chance to get younger, faster, bigger with Free agency. We signed Lidstrom, okay fine, still think we paid too much, but I'm okay with it. I'm not okay with the human pylon being resigned. We probably should have kept Leino instead of Holmstrom seeing as how he is playing right now. I'm also starting to think we should have kept Steve Yzerman & let Holland walk too, that was a bad move for the future Holland, you blew it!

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1. Leino was released in order to free up cap/roster for Franzen's return.

2. Holmstrom is a specialist that is the very best at what he does.

3. He can still score goals, 25 goals for under 2 million is an absolutely great deal.

4. You can not pay too much for a player like Lidstrom, especially when you aren't talking 8-10 million.

Before last year I was in the same boat as you, I didn't think Homer had a place in the top 6 due to his skating ability. But he clearly proved me wrong last year on his way to being the second leading scorer.

Lastly Steve Yzerman over Ken Holland? Damn I've probably replied to a troll. Oh well.

I feel dirty... I just agreed 100% with an entire post by Carman...

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In this day and age of big speedy forwards, and great two way players, why in the world would the Wings resign Holmstrom? He is only good for the powerplay, he is a liability on defense, & my grandma can skate faster than him. This was our chance to get younger, faster, bigger with Free agency. We signed Lidstrom, okay fine, still think we paid too much, but I'm okay with it. I'm not okay with the human pylon being resigned. We probably should have kept Leino instead of Holmstrom seeing as how he is playing right now. I'm also starting to think we should have kept Steve Yzerman & let Holland walk too, that was a bad move for the future Holland, you blew it!

*facepalm and a half*

It's easy to say we should've kept Leino AFTER THE FACT and AFTER HE'S FINALLY DOING WELL. He barely did squat here during the trade so I don't regret whatsoever getting rid of him. More power to him doing well in Philly.

Babcock manages Holmstrom great. When he feels it is necessary, he puts him in a reduced role on even strength if he feels that Holmstrom can't keep up speed wise. Holmstrom is still a decent option on the top or second line when Babcock feels that his speed/lack thereof won't be an issue.

Lidstrom signed for less than he did last year, he still gave the Wings a discount and is a steal money wise for being one of the best defensemen in the league.

Holland is still one of the better GMs in the league, by other peers in the NHL.

Your post is a bad one, really really bad.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan

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*facepalm and a half*

It's easy to say we should've kept Leino AFTER THE FACT and AFTER HE'S FINALLY DOING WELL. He barely did squat here during the trade so I don't regret whatsoever getting rid of him. More power to him doing well in Philly.

Babcock manages Holmstrom great. When he feels it is necessary, he puts him in a reduced role on even strength if he feels that Holmstrom can't keep up speed wise. Holmstrom is still a decent option on the top or second line when Babcock feels that his speed/lack thereof won't be an issue.

Lidstrom signed for less than he did last year, he still gave the Wings a discount and is a steal money wise for being one of the best defensemen in the league.

Holland is still one of the better GMs in the league, by other peers in the NHL.

Your post is a bad one, really really bad.

This post is a good one, really really good.

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Okay, maybe the Holland think was written out of emotion, & I have always liked Holland & thought he did an outstanding job. My point is, the Wings were in a great position to really make a splash in free agency. And if you don't think we can't get anybody to replace Holmstrom "Specialty" then you all are sadly mistaken. I would much rather have a player that can carry the puck, make plays, & score 5 on 5, then someone who sits in front of the net tips pucks or bangs in rebounds. The Wings need forwards who can score, that was evident all year. I'm just saying, don't you think there will be better options this summer, than to handcuff ourselves with cap money?

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Okay, maybe the Holland think was written out of emotion, & I have always liked Holland & thought he did an outstanding job. My point is, the Wings were in a great position to really make a splash in free agency. And if you don't think we can't get anybody to replace Holmstrom "Specialty" then you all are sadly mistaken. I would much rather have a player that can carry the puck, make plays, & score 5 on 5, then someone who sits in front of the net tips pucks or bangs in rebounds. The Wings need forwards who can score, that was evident all year. I'm just saying, don't you think there will be better options this summer, than to handcuff ourselves with cap money?

Holmstrom can score goals and he too signed for less than his less contract.

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Holmstrom can score goals and he too signed for less than his less contract.

Yes, I know, but it is just less money we have to spend for free agents that could help our team in all situations, not just on the PP.

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My point is, the Wings were in a great position to really make a splash in free agency.

Considering they still need to fill out the roster, whoever they signed in his place would have to be making around the same money anyways. Who do you think would've been a better pick up?

And if you don't think we can't get anybody to replace Holmstrom "Specialty" then you all are sadly mistaken. I would much rather have a player that can carry the puck, make plays, & score 5 on 5, then someone who sits in front of the net tips pucks or bangs in rebounds.

Yeah, I'd rather have Kovalchuk too, but he's going to make a little more than Homer. Anyways, tipping pucks and banging home rebounds will never go out of style.

The Wings need forwards who can score, that was evident all year.

Is there something else you think Homer is doing? 25 goals, right?

I'm just saying, don't you think there will be better options this summer, than to handcuff ourselves with cap money?

They're not really "handcuffing" themselves by signing a solid scorer and big PP contributor to two years for under two million.

I don't necessarily agree with but can at least understand folks being unhappy with Cleary's or Rafalski's contract. I'm not sure what to make of this; Homer makes next to nothing and contributes a ton to the Wings.

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Considering they still need to fill out the roster, whoever they signed in his place would have to be making around the same money anyways. Who do you think would've been a better pick up?

Yeah, I'd rather have Kovalchuk too, but he's going to make a little more than Homer. Anyways, tipping pucks and banging home rebounds will never go out of style.

Is there something else you think Homer is doing? 25 goals, right?

They're not really "handcuffing" themselves by signing a solid scorer and big PP contributor to two years for under two million.

I don't necessarily agree with but can at least understand folks being unhappy with Cleary's or Rafalski's contract. I'm not sure what to make of this; Homer makes next to nothing and contributes a ton to the Wings.

I started to go though each NHL team & cap money to compare salaries, but I just don't have the time to really investigate & not to mention that the $1.875 we gave Holmstrom could be combined with other money to sign a better forward.

Believe me, I'm not happy with Cleary's contract at all! Rafalski has been very good since coming here & in some aguments has played better than Lidstrom at times, so that one I will let go.

Not that I have investigated it fully but Jussi Jokinen for instance last year made $1.7M, he had 30 goals & 35 assists. All I'm saying is to take a step back, & take off the Red Wing hat, the Holmstrom jersey & the Red colored glasses, & look at the possiblity that we could have spent that money more wisely.

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Yes, I know, but it is just less money we have to spend for free agents that could help our team in all situations, not just on the PP.

Exactly! We shouldn't be re-signing anyone and just sign Kovalchuk and have a 15-man roster. This is why Holland sucks!!

:ph34r:

I started to go though each NHL team & cap money to compare salaries, but I just don't have the time to really investigate & not to mention that the $1.875 we gave Holmstrom could be combined with other money to sign a better forward.

Believe me, I'm not happy with Cleary's contract at all! Rafalski has been very good since coming here & in some aguments has played better than Lidstrom at times, so that one I will let go.

Not that I have investigated it fully but Jussi Jokinen for instance last year made $1.7M, he had 30 goals & 35 assists. All I'm saying is to take a step back, & take off the Red Wing hat, the Holmstrom jersey & the Red colored glasses, & look at the possiblity that we could have spent that money more wisely.

1. Jokinen is not a free agent.

2. His next contract will be worth well over $4m at the very least.

Awful comparison.

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Exactly! We shouldn't be re-signing anyone and just sign Kovalchuk and have a 15-man roster. This is why Holland sucks!!

:ph34r:

1. Jokinen is not a free agent.

2. His next contract will be worth well over $4m at the very least.

Awful comparison.

Never said he was a free agent, was just comparing salaries to what he made last year, I have no idea what his next contract will be & neither do you, it's all speculation at this point. Still does not debunk my point that money could be spent more wisely & better talent generated.

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Quote

The Wings need forwards who can score, that was evident all year.

Is there something else you think Homer is doing? 25 goals, right?

FYI that 25 goals came from a player making $2.25M/ per. You can't predict what he will do next year, he is however another year older & can he get any slower? We could have used that money to get younger, bigger and faster.

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Not that I have investigated it fully but Jussi Jokinen for instance last year made $1.7M, he had 30 goals & 35 assists.

Yeah, after two years of bouncing between teams at the deadline. Guys overachieve on small contracts all the time -- look no further than our own Red Wings and a guy like Dan Cleary (before he signed his big contract) for more evidence of that. You can't just go out and sign a guy that scores 60 points to that deal, you have to take a chance on a questionable player. Should the Wings let Holmstrom, a guys whose value is concrete and completely known, walk to try and find some diamond in the rough? Nonsense.

All I'm saying is to take a step back, & take off the Red Wing hat, the Holmstrom jersey & the Red colored glasses, & look at the possiblity that we could have spent that money more wisely.

Sorry, I think Homer's deal is a great value. You'd have to show me something very compelling to change my mind on that.

You clamor for a player that excels on defense, at even strength (and presumable on the power play to replace Homer's presence) for a salary close to Homer's. But not every player on the team is going to be some two-way dynamo that can do it all -- you need guys that are bargains to fill roles in order to stay under the cap. Holmstrom's role is primarily a PP specialist, and the Wings put him with guys like Datsyuk at even strength to cover for his lack of footspeed and defensive shortcomings -- and can you really argue with the results?

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Never said he was a free agent, was just comparing salaries to what he made last year, I have no idea what his next contract will be & neither do you, it's all speculation at this point. Still does not debunk my point that money could be spent more wisely & better talent generated.

For all intents and purposes it does debunk your point because what you're suggesting is unrealistic. I do have an idea of what Jokinen will get -- apparently moreso than you because you've displayed zero knowledge of the value of a hockey player.

I could mention thing likes Jason Chimera made $1.875m last season with his 15 goals and 34 points. Is that the kind of scorer you're looking for? What about Eric Belanger's 15 goals and 41 points for $1.75m? Hey what about Radek Dvorak's 14 goals and 32 points for his $1.7m cap hit? Better option than Holmstrom?

You can complain about bargain deals everywhere. Young players on entry-level or second contracts are not accurate comparisons though. Otherwise everyone would be complaining about the value of Tampa's 50 goals from Stamkos.

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Yes, I know, but it is just less money we have to spend for free agents that could help our team in all situations, not just on the PP.

Its players like Homer who got us to the playoffs last season. When half the team was injured he was scoring goals. He would have got more money from another contender but he stayed here, be happy about that.

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I started to go though each NHL team & cap money to compare salaries, but I just don't have the time to really investigate & not to mention that the $1.875 we gave Holmstrom could be combined with other money to sign a better forward.

Believe me, I'm not happy with Cleary's contract at all! Rafalski has been very good since coming here & in some aguments has played better than Lidstrom at times, so that one I will let go.

Not that I have investigated it fully but Jussi Jokinen for instance last year made $1.7M, he had 30 goals & 35 assists. All I'm saying is to take a step back, & take off the Red Wing hat, the Holmstrom jersey & the Red colored glasses, & look at the possiblity that we could have spent that money more wisely.

Now I know for a fact you haven't watched a Wings game in 2 years.

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Never said he was a free agent, was just comparing salaries to what he made last year, I have no idea what his next contract will be & neither do you, it's all speculation at this point. Still does not debunk my point that money could be spent more wisely & better talent generated.

I will ask you...

How could money be spent more wisely when...

Hudler was re-signed (whether you like it or not/$$$ is debatable obviously)

It's all but assumed, and I believe Holland said more/less, that there would probably not be any big-name signings this offseason...

Lidstrom re-signed for less money...

Holmstrom re-signed for less money...

Bertuzzi will probably re-sign, if he does, for the same or less money...

And the roster is going to not be all that different?

Your complaints about money being well spent is something that happens with every franchise/GMs with the what if question game. Where it gets to cherrypicking and reaching. You are cherry picking and grasping at straws on ways to spend money better where it is hard and often not worth finding the answers to those nearly impossible questions.

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For all intents and purposes it does debunk your point because what you're suggesting is unrealistic. I do have an idea of what Jokinen will get -- apparently moreso than you because you've displayed zero knowledge of the value of a hockey player.

I could mention thing likes Jason Chimera made $1.875m last season with his 15 goals and 34 points. Is that the kind of scorer you're looking for? What about Eric Belanger's 15 goals and 41 points for $1.75m? Hey what about Radek Dvorak's 14 goals and 32 points for his $1.7m cap hit? Better option than Holmstrom?

You can complain about bargain deals everywhere. Young players on entry-level or second contracts are not accurate comparisons though. Otherwise everyone would be complaining about the value of Tampa's 50 goals from Stamkos.

I could mention thing likes Jason Chimera made $1.875m last season with his 15 goals and 34 points. Is that the kind of scorer you're looking for? What about Eric Belanger's 15 goals and 41 points for $1.75m? Hey what about Radek Dvorak's 14 goals and 32 points for his $1.7m cap hit? Better option than Holmstrom?

Okay, I see your point, but you have to remeber some players are a product of their environment, like Osgood, he was terrible in NY & below average in STL, but on the Wings he was better than average. This will be the same with Chimera, who is and will be much better on WAS. Also remember, if you are going to give stats from last year, you have to use salaries from last year also. Holmstrom made $2.25 last year. Radek Dvorak, really?????? He had one good season in NY on a decent team, he was horrible in EDM, and bad in FLA. In my opinion, they are over payed for him too. I think Belanger could be a decent player given a different roll, & maybe that will happen, he could be that diamond in the rough you speak of.

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Now I know for a fact you haven't watched a Wings game in 2 years.

Look at the stats. I said it could be argued, & in some situations.

Rafalski

Year Team League GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits

2009-10 Detroit NHL 78 8 34 42 23 5 14 0 0 1 26 134 5.97 -

2009-10 United States Olympic 6 4 4 8 7 1 - 0 - 0 2 11 36.36 -

2008-09 Detroit NHL 78 10 49 59 17 5 23 0 0 1 20 141 7.09 -

2007-08 Detroit NHL 73 13 42 55 27 10 21 0 0 1 34 175 7.43 -

Career Playoff Stats

Year Team LeagueGP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits

2009-10 Detroit NHL 12 3 8 11 4 1 4 0 0 0 2 23 13.04 10

2009-10 United States Olympic - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

2008-09 Detroit NHL 18 3 9 12 11 3 4 0 0 1 11 24 12.50 -

2007-08 Detroit NHL 22 4 10 14 6 2 3 0 0 0 12 58 6.90 -

Lidstrom

Year Team League GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits om

2009-10 Detroit NHL 82 9 40 49 22 5 15 0 3 1 24 194 4.64 -

2009-10 Sweden Olympic 4 0 0 0 -1 0 - 0 - 0 2 8 .00 -

2008-09 Detroit NHL 78 16 43 59 31 10 23 0 1 4 30 180 8.89 -

2007-08 Detroit NHL 76 10 60 70 40 5 29 0 1 4 40 188 5.32 -

Career Playoff Stats

Year Team League GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits

2009-10 Detroit NHL 12 4 6 10 7 3 2 0 0 0 2 39 10.26 13

2008-09 Detroit NHL 21 4 12 16 11 3 8 0 0 1 6 59 6.78 -

2007-08 Detroit NHL 22 3 10 13 8 1 8 1 0 1 14 41 7.32 -

Now we are comparing one of the best D of all time to Rafalski. I would say Rafalski has done okay.

Edited by jroach17
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I could mention thing likes Jason Chimera made $1.875m last season with his 15 goals and 34 points. Is that the kind of scorer you're looking for? What about Eric Belanger's 15 goals and 41 points for $1.75m? Hey what about Radek Dvorak's 14 goals and 32 points for his $1.7m cap hit? Better option than Holmstrom?

Okay, I see your point, but you have to remeber some players are a product of their environment, like Osgood, he was terrible in NY & below average in STL, but on the Wings he was better than average. This will be the same with Chimera, who is and will be much better on WAS. Also remember, if you are going to give stats from last year, you have to use salaries from last year also. Holmstrom made $2.25 last year. Radek Dvorak, really?????? He had one good season in NY on a decent team, he was horrible in EDM, and bad in FLA. In my opinion, they are over payed for him too. I think Belanger could be a decent player given a different roll, & maybe that will happen, he could be that diamond in the rough you speak of.

Okay. These are all free agents BTW (Although we know Modano has retired).

Mike Modano - 14 goals, 30 points @ $2.25m

Chris Higgins - 8 goals, 17 points @ $2.25m

Keith Tkuchuk - 13 goals, 32 points @ $2.15m

Marek Svatos - 7 goals, 11 points @ $2.35m

The only comparable players that had season's as good as Holmstrom were Selanne (27 goals, 48 points)and Guerin (21 goals, 45 points) both making $2m.

Do you still think the same way about this signing??

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1. Leino was released in order to free up cap/roster for Franzen's return.

2. Holmstrom is a specialist that is the very best at what he does.

3. He can still score goals, 25 goals for under 2 million is an absolutely great deal.

4. You can not pay too much for a player like Lidstrom, especially when you aren't talking 8-10 million.

Before last year I was in the same boat as you, I didn't think Homer had a place in the top 6 due to his skating ability. But he clearly proved me wrong last year on his way to being the second leading scorer.

Lastly Steve Yzerman over Ken Holland? Damn I've probably replied to a troll. Oh well.

:clap: Seriously, one of the best and most succinct responses I've read on LGW"

And if you don't think we can't get anybody to replace Holmstrom "Specialty" then you all are sadly mistaken.

Could you please supply the names of players that the Wings could sign this free agency period who could replace Holmstrom's "Specialty?"

Please bear in mind this means that they have to be: 1) a UFA; 2) be an incredible screener/net presence player; 3) capable of roughly 25 goals in 68 games; and 4) be willing to sign a contract somewhere in the $1.8M range. I will be really interested in seeing that list of names.

Not that I have investigated it fully but Jussi Jokinen for instance last year made $1.7M, he had 30 goals & 35 assists. All I'm saying is to take a step back, & take off the Red Wing hat, the Holmstrom jersey & the Red colored glasses, & look at the possiblity that we could have spent that money more wisely.

See my above comment. The Wings can't sign a player who is under contract to another team. Who is AVAILABLE that the Wings could get that provides as much bang for your buck as Holmstrom?

You can complain about bargain deals everywhere. Young players on entry-level or second contracts are not accurate comparisons though. Otherwise everyone would be complaining about the value of Tampa's 50 goals from Stamkos.

Absolutely true. It is not comparable at all to compare guys who are on entry level contract or who signed as RFAs.

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Now we are comparing one of the best D of all time to Rafalski. I would say Rafalski has done okay.

Because having one of the best Dmen of all time as your partner surely couldn't be helping him. :rolleyes:

Raffi has been good but if you somehow think he has outplayed Lidstrom the last couple year you really must be a box score reader and not watch games.

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Because having one of the best Dmen of all time as your partner surely couldn't be helping him. :rolleyes:

Raffi has been good but if you somehow think he has outplayed Lidstrom the last couple year you really must be a box score reader and not watch games.

Not saying Rafalski outplayed Lidstrom, just justifying his salary & why I'm not that upset about it.

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