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Why Holmstrom


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#21 jroach17

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:00 AM

Now I know for a fact you haven't watched a Wings game in 2 years.



Look at the stats. I said it could be argued, & in some situations.

Rafalski
Year Team League GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits
2009-10 Detroit NHL 78 8 34 42 23 5 14 0 0 1 26 134 5.97 -
2009-10 United States Olympic 6 4 4 8 7 1 - 0 - 0 2 11 36.36 -
2008-09 Detroit NHL 78 10 49 59 17 5 23 0 0 1 20 141 7.09 -
2007-08 Detroit NHL 73 13 42 55 27 10 21 0 0 1 34 175 7.43 -

Career Playoff Stats
Year Team LeagueGP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits
2009-10 Detroit NHL 12 3 8 11 4 1 4 0 0 0 2 23 13.04 10
2009-10 United States Olympic - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2008-09 Detroit NHL 18 3 9 12 11 3 4 0 0 1 11 24 12.50 -
2007-08 Detroit NHL 22 4 10 14 6 2 3 0 0 0 12 58 6.90 -



Lidstrom
Year Team League GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits om
2009-10 Detroit NHL 82 9 40 49 22 5 15 0 3 1 24 194 4.64 -
2009-10 Sweden Olympic 4 0 0 0 -1 0 - 0 - 0 2 8 .00 -
2008-09 Detroit NHL 78 16 43 59 31 10 23 0 1 4 30 180 8.89 -
2007-08 Detroit NHL 76 10 60 70 40 5 29 0 1 4 40 188 5.32 -

Career Playoff Stats
Year Team League GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG PIM Shots PCT Hits
2009-10 Detroit NHL 12 4 6 10 7 3 2 0 0 0 2 39 10.26 13
2008-09 Detroit NHL 21 4 12 16 11 3 8 0 0 1 6 59 6.78 -
2007-08 Detroit NHL 22 3 10 13 8 1 8 1 0 1 14 41 7.32 -

Now we are comparing one of the best D of all time to Rafalski. I would say Rafalski has done okay.

Edited by jroach17, 07 June 2010 - 09:02 AM.


#22 Doggy

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:05 AM

I could mention thing likes Jason Chimera made $1.875m last season with his 15 goals and 34 points. Is that the kind of scorer you're looking for? What about Eric Belanger's 15 goals and 41 points for $1.75m? Hey what about Radek Dvorak's 14 goals and 32 points for his $1.7m cap hit? Better option than Holmstrom?

Okay, I see your point, but you have to remeber some players are a product of their environment, like Osgood, he was terrible in NY & below average in STL, but on the Wings he was better than average. This will be the same with Chimera, who is and will be much better on WAS. Also remember, if you are going to give stats from last year, you have to use salaries from last year also. Holmstrom made $2.25 last year. Radek Dvorak, really?????? He had one good season in NY on a decent team, he was horrible in EDM, and bad in FLA. In my opinion, they are over payed for him too. I think Belanger could be a decent player given a different roll, & maybe that will happen, he could be that diamond in the rough you speak of.

Okay. These are all free agents BTW (Although we know Modano has retired).

Mike Modano - 14 goals, 30 points @ $2.25m
Chris Higgins - 8 goals, 17 points @ $2.25m
Keith Tkuchuk - 13 goals, 32 points @ $2.15m
Marek Svatos - 7 goals, 11 points @ $2.35m

The only comparable players that had season's as good as Holmstrom were Selanne (27 goals, 48 points)and Guerin (21 goals, 45 points) both making $2m.

Do you still think the same way about this signing??
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#23 Frozen-Man

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:12 AM

1. Leino was released in order to free up cap/roster for Franzen's return.
2. Holmstrom is a specialist that is the very best at what he does.
3. He can still score goals, 25 goals for under 2 million is an absolutely great deal.
4. You can not pay too much for a player like Lidstrom, especially when you aren't talking 8-10 million.


Before last year I was in the same boat as you, I didn't think Homer had a place in the top 6 due to his skating ability. But he clearly proved me wrong last year on his way to being the second leading scorer.

Lastly Steve Yzerman over Ken Holland? Damn I've probably replied to a troll. Oh well.


:clap: Seriously, one of the best and most succinct responses I've read on LGW"


And if you don't think we can't get anybody to replace Holmstrom "Specialty" then you all are sadly mistaken.


Could you please supply the names of players that the Wings could sign this free agency period who could replace Holmstrom's "Specialty?"
Please bear in mind this means that they have to be: 1) a UFA; 2) be an incredible screener/net presence player; 3) capable of roughly 25 goals in 68 games; and 4) be willing to sign a contract somewhere in the $1.8M range. I will be really interested in seeing that list of names.


Not that I have investigated it fully but Jussi Jokinen for instance last year made $1.7M, he had 30 goals & 35 assists. All I'm saying is to take a step back, & take off the Red Wing hat, the Holmstrom jersey & the Red colored glasses, & look at the possiblity that we could have spent that money more wisely.


See my above comment. The Wings can't sign a player who is under contract to another team. Who is AVAILABLE that the Wings could get that provides as much bang for your buck as Holmstrom?


You can complain about bargain deals everywhere. Young players on entry-level or second contracts are not accurate comparisons though. Otherwise everyone would be complaining about the value of Tampa's 50 goals from Stamkos.


Absolutely true. It is not comparable at all to compare guys who are on entry level contract or who signed as RFAs.

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#24 GoalieManPat

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:15 AM

Now we are comparing one of the best D of all time to Rafalski. I would say Rafalski has done okay.


Because having one of the best Dmen of all time as your partner surely couldn't be helping him. :rolleyes:
Raffi has been good but if you somehow think he has outplayed Lidstrom the last couple year you really must be a box score reader and not watch games.

#25 jroach17

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:32 AM

Because having one of the best Dmen of all time as your partner surely couldn't be helping him. :rolleyes:
Raffi has been good but if you somehow think he has outplayed Lidstrom the last couple year you really must be a box score reader and not watch games.



Not saying Rafalski outplayed Lidstrom, just justifying his salary & why I'm not that upset about it.

#26 Heaten

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:36 AM

Holmstrom is a bargain at his cap hit. What UFA is available that would score 25 goals for under 2 million?

The answer would be: None.

#27 Echolalia

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:40 AM

It seems like you want more of a decent complete package forward, which ultimately means a greater cap hit. If you want to trade away a couple players to make room for such an acquisition, I suppose that's fine as we're all armchair GMs anyway, but have you really considered what you would be giving up?
The Wings are already chock-full of the two way forwards you desire; in fact I believe we have two of the top three in the league in Datsyuk and Zetterberg. We also have plenty of playmakers (besides, a playmaker is only as good as the scorer he's passing to). Would adding a playmaking defensive forward really benefit the team in any way?
In terms of offense, the Wings could use a pure goalscorer or a power forward. Power forwards unfortunately are a dying breed in the NHL, and a team seems to be lucky to claim one on their roster these days. Our one is Franzen. As for goalscorers: again there isn't too much available on the market. Holland would have to give up a good deal to make room for someone who is capable of 30+ goals. Besides, the front office seems to think that Hudler could come close to that mark; certainly close enough considering his caphit.
So if the Wings need a goalscorer or a powerforward but there aren't any available, what can we do? That's where Homer comes in. The guy sucks defensively, skates like an 80 year old, is retarded when it comes to stick-handling, and looks and talks goofy. But he makes goalies play bad. When he's on the ice, the chances of the puck going into the net go up, and if you can't be a goalscorer you might as well help your line out as much as possible by raising their chances of scoring. And even better: defensmen can't move him. You can probably count on one hand the amount of players who can continuously take a beating like Homer can and not budge an inch, all the while tipping in pucks and tapping in rebounds. He's the absolute best at what he does and he's agreed to do it for less than 2M. It doesn't hurt that he seems to have decent chemistry with Datsyuk along the boards as well. At the very least he keeps a defensman completely focused on him which opens space up for the others to work their magic.
If you get rid of Homer, what do you think will happen to the offensive output of the Wings as a whole?

#28 Frozen-Man

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:41 AM

Yes, I know, but it is just less money we have to spend for free agents that could help our team in all situations, not just on the PP.


Holmstrom help the Wings more than just on the power play. He had 25 goals and 12 of them came at even strength. I'm not saying that he doesn't excel on the PP but his contribution extends beyond that. The Wing's sixth highest goal scorer (Eaves) had 12 total goals, Homer matched that with just his even strength goals.

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#29 jroach17

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:43 AM

Holmstrom is a bargain at his cap hit. What UFA is available that would score 25 goals for under 2 million?

The answer would be: None.



I don't know that, you don't know that & he hasn't scored 25 goals under $2M yet. Why couldn't we use his salary & combine it with others to aquire somebody alot better but at a higher cost. Use Lilja's, Maltby's, Lebda's, or Meech's combined with Holmstroms. There is also a possibility of a trade & the Wings needing that money.

#30 Frozen-Man

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:48 AM

I started to go though each NHL team & cap money to compare salaries, but I just don't have the time to really investigate & not to mention that the $1.875 we gave Holmstrom could be combined with other money to sign a better forward.

Believe me, I'm not happy with Cleary's contract at all! Rafalski has been very good since coming here & in some aguments has played better than Lidstrom at times, so that one I will let go.



Not saying Rafalski outplayed Lidstrom, just justifying his salary & why I'm not that upset about it.


:lol:

Quite the contradiction
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#31 jroach17

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:02 AM

It seems like you want more of a decent complete package forward, which ultimately means a greater cap hit. If you want to trade away a couple players to make room for such an acquisition, I suppose that's fine as we're all armchair GMs anyway, but have you really considered what you would be giving up?
The Wings are already chock-full of the two way forwards you desire; in fact I believe we have two of the top three in the league in Datsyuk and Zetterberg. We also have plenty of playmakers (besides, a playmaker is only as good as the scorer he's passing to). Would adding a playmaking defensive forward really benefit the team in any way?
In terms of offense, the Wings could use a pure goalscorer or a power forward. Power forwards unfortunately are a dying breed in the NHL, and a team seems to be lucky to claim one on their roster these days. Our one is Franzen. As for goalscorers: again there isn't too much available on the market. Holland would have to give up a good deal to make room for someone who is capable of 30+ goals. Besides, the front office seems to think that Hudler could come close to that mark; certainly close enough considering his caphit.
So if the Wings need a goalscorer or a powerforward but there aren't any available, what can we do? That's where Homer comes in. The guy sucks defensively, skates like an 80 year old, is retarded when it comes to stick-handling, and looks and talks goofy. But he makes goalies play bad. When he's on the ice, the chances of the puck going into the net go up, and if you can't be a goalscorer you might as well help your line out as much as possible by raising their chances of scoring. And even better: defensmen can't move him. You can probably count on one hand the amount of players who can continuously take a beating like Homer can and not budge an inch, all the while tipping in pucks and tapping in rebounds. He's the absolute best at what he does and he's agreed to do it for less than 2M. It doesn't hurt that he seems to have decent chemistry with Datsyuk along the boards as well. At the very least he keeps a defensman completely focused on him which opens space up for the others to work their magic.
If you get rid of Homer, what do you think will happen to the offensive output of the Wings as a whole?

:clap: Very well said, & exactly what I was looking for when I asked Why Holmstrom? I do however think there are better options

#32 Frozen-Man

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:07 AM

:clap: Very well said, & exactly what I was looking for when I asked Why Holmstrom? I do however think there are better options


What exactly are those options? Not in the abstract but actual players who are available and that the Wings can afford?

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain


#33 Heaten

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:09 AM

I don't know that, you don't know that & he hasn't scored 25 goals under $2M yet.


There's no guarantees Datsyuk will score 50 points, then again, he could have a career year. That's hockey.

Why couldn't we use his salary & combine it with others to aquire somebody alot better but at a higher cost. Use Lilja's, Maltby's, Lebda's, or Meech's combined with Holmstroms. There is also a possibility of a trade & the Wings needing that money.


People keep asking and you continue to ignore the question: who?

#34 magicaldatsyuk

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:14 AM

this is the most ridiculous thread, how can you say resigning holmstrom for less than he earned last year, is a bad idea. the guy was injured and he still provided the team with 25 goals. he is without a doubt the best at what he does and you still have yet to say someone else that would be a better deal.


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#35 Zeowingsfan

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:33 AM

Okay what are these better options, you've been asked many times jroach, so tell us.



Also when I saw the topic, I immediately thought of Jake Ryan.
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#36 toby91_ca

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:45 AM

I agree with the draw backs and complaints about Holmstrom, but the reason for re-signing him is simple: he has a highly specialized skill set. As the OP suggested, in today's game with many big speedy wingers, those guys are easy to find, but finding someone with Holmstrom's skill set is not. It's more than just skillset though, as I wouldn't say there is a ton of skill involved, I think it's more willingness, that most other players simply don't possess. He works his ass off in practice at redirecting pucks as well.

He can definately be a liability in many ways, but I think that specialization that he brings continues to outweigh any liabilities. He was signed to a pay cut and he will go downhill, but I don't think his value is gone just yet.

#37 Jasper84

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:53 AM

In this day and age of big speedy forwards, and great two way players, why in the world would the Wings resign Holmstrom? He is only good for the powerplay, he is a liability on defense, & my grandma can skate faster than him. This was our chance to get younger, faster, bigger with Free agency. We signed Lidstrom, okay fine, still think we paid too much, but I'm okay with it. I'm not okay with the human pylon being resigned. We probably should have kept Leino instead of Holmstrom seeing as how he is playing right now. I'm also starting to think we should have kept Steve Yzerman & let Holland walk too, that was a bad move for the future Holland, you blew it!


THIS is why people like you and I are sitting at home/work discussing the Red Wings on the forums, and not working professionally for the organization.

For the record, I agree with absolutely nothing you've said.

#38 CenterIce

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 11:34 AM

In this day and age of big speedy forwards, and great two way players, why in the world would the Wings resign Holmstrom? He is only good for the powerplay, he is a liability on defense, & my grandma can skate faster than him. This was our chance to get younger, faster, bigger with Free agency. We signed Lidstrom, okay fine, still think we paid too much, but I'm okay with it. I'm not okay with the human pylon being resigned. We probably should have kept Leino instead of Holmstrom seeing as how he is playing right now. I'm also starting to think we should have kept Steve Yzerman & let Holland walk too, that was a bad move for the future Holland, you blew it!


Because without Holmstrom and Lidstrom, our power play would be nonexistent, and the power play scoring is a big percentage of Wings' scoring over the years.

#39 ogreslayer

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 12:43 PM

So I just had a conversation with a local Flyers fan. He couldn't believe how cheaply the Wings re-signed Homer for and was bemoaning the hometown discounts the Wings consistently get. In his own words, he would have loved to seen Homer on the Flyers for twice what he signed for in Detroit & of course thought the ~$6.2m that Nick signed for was rediculously low too. It's just amazing how spoiled two decades of winning can make a fan base...

#40 HankthaTank

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 12:47 PM

It's just amazing how spoiled two decades of winning can make a fan base...



It really is. But when if you sign on LGW every day you will see it in action, in type, and in the most ridiculous threads imaginable.
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